The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

Show first post
This topic has been closed for further comments. You can use the search bar to find a similar topic, or create a new one by clicking Create Topic at the top of the page.

570 replies

C
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

 

Which is why this thread is about non Sonos ways ahead, once the legacy products die.

The hardware of the legacy products I don’t see them to die at all :wink:

But until then I would hope to see an open standard for in house audio distribution where you can mix and match devices from different manufactures and pick the software to your needs. Similar to the home automation standards. Then you are not locked in to a specific ecosystem of a particular manufacturer and you are going to have oodles of 3rd party solutions.

K

@Cisume : Hard to see that happening, and if it does, Sonos being an early adopter - so in its absence cherish the Line In jacks on Sonos legacy products.

K

Which brings forth this advice for all legacy product owners - the line in is a mechanical device that can be damaged by plugging/unplugging frequently, particularly if poor quality cables with imperfect jacks are being used. 

C
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

@Cisume : Hard to see that happening, and if it does, Sonos being an early adopter - so in its absence cherish the Line In jacks on Sonos legacy products.

In the mean time I think I may dive into their API 

K

@Cisume let us know if you find anything useful. In English please:-)

D
Userlevel 7
Badge +5

@Cisume : Hard to see that happening, and if it does, Sonos being an early adopter - so in its absence cherish the Line In jacks on Sonos legacy products.

In the mean time I think I may dive into their API 

Maybe look into their firmware.

Would be interesting if someone with the knowledge did a validity check on their “There is not enough flash storage to keep updating”.

chickentender

I’ve been cruising around the web this evening. Looked into Raspberry Pi which I’d not touched since around 2015 when I tinkered with them for a work project. Still very cool.
Though as I’ve participated to a limited extent over in the Rantsville frustration farm, all whilst listening to quite a bit of streamed music around the house via the Bluesound piped to Sonos as I’ve described, I realized something. I’m just not sure how much I care anymore. I think were it to come down to it, as well as my current setup works, I’d just buy 2nd hand Sonos, or even new again --- this at least in terms of extending the network to non-critical-listening areas…. which is most of them. At $354 (as of the moment) for a pair of One SL’s, that’s bit hard to beat for what they are. Particularly so if I can continue to feed them via another source. I’ll certainly wait to see what shakes out in May, but to my surprise I may have reversed course. This is all simply due to the fact that I’m already invested in 4 other speakers and the Connect (which is meager compared to some folks) and transitioning completely sounds like a pain. If things look good in the spring…. well, I dunno. I’m softening to the whole idea ever since getting the Node 2i. Perhaps I’ll just view it all as diversification. 

K

 I’d just buy 2nd hand Sonos, or even new again

 if I can continue to feed them via another source.

 due to the fact that I’m already invested in 4 other speakers and the Connect (which is meager compared to some folks) and transitioning completely sounds like a pain. 

Being pragmatic means ruling out nothing that can work so the quoted merely raises the following questions:

  1. By feeding them another source, you mean via the existing Sonos speakers, because the ones you refer to do not have line in?
  2. That would then means the additions would have to be joinable to the legacy system?
  3. And it would mean that you would be willing to have the new Sonos forego all the subsequent to legacy features, even if that means foregoing Hi Res if that is one of them?

Of course a fundamental assumption is that the new Sonos speaker bought in say 2021, can be added to a unified legacy system as one part of it.

chickentender

 I’d just buy 2nd hand Sonos, or even new again

 if I can continue to feed them via another source.

 due to the fact that I’m already invested in 4 other speakers and the Connect (which is meager compared to some folks) and transitioning completely sounds like a pain. 

Being pragmatic means ruling out nothing that can work so the quoted merely raises the following questions:

  1. By feeding them another source, you mean via the existing Sonos speakers, because the ones you refer to do not have line in?
  2. That would then means the additions would have to be joinable to the legacy system?
  3. And it would mean that you would be willing to have the new Sonos forego all the subsequent to legacy features, even if that means foregoing Hi Res if that is one of them?

Of course a fundamental assumption is that the new Sonos speaker bought in say 2021, can be added to a unified legacy system as one part of it.

As things stand of this moment only… There are certainly some assumptions at play in my thinking regarding the future. How that shapes up in reality remains to be seen.

  1. Another source meaning from another device to my Connect (the Bluesound currently)… assuming legacy changes nothing going forward from basic operational standpoint. But also factoring in is the ability to Airplay2 to my single Sonos One (another of those could be beneficial) as well as just using the Sonos controller whilst using just the Sonos network.
  2. Yes. This is the assumption that we’ll be able to add new (currently) or old (though if legacy, old seems pragmatic in the near term, but a modern (still perhaps used) could have more longevity than we might think if it’s a ONE or more current that Play:1 in terms of memory/storage, so that could be a possibility were I to ever upgrade to 256mb 2nd-hand Connect (which has also crossed my mind).
  3. Correct. Hi-res support, in my current environment doesn’t matter to me in terms of Sonos. I receive it from the Bluesound in the main room. The other zones are just casual/background music - an I’m not certain how important hir-res really is to me anyhow. FLAC is often just fine. (I’ve been auditioning Qobuz recently and I do hear a difference in some selections, but there are too many other variables to be definitive, and even as such, the difference is subtle.)
Majik

@Cisume : Hard to see that happening, and if it does, Sonos being an early adopter - so in its absence cherish the Line In jacks on Sonos legacy products.

In the mean time I think I may dive into their API 

Maybe look into their firmware.

Would be interesting if someone with the knowledge did a validity check on their “There is not enough flash storage to keep updating”.

I believe the Sonos firmware is very locked down. I’m not aware of anyone who has yet broken through that security in any meaningful way.

And, even if they had, and there was some reasonable quantity of flash storage free (which I doubt) without knowledge of Sonos’s future product plans, there’s no useful way to make a judgement. on how much is enough.

I think it is safe, and rational, to take them at their word on this.

Cheers,

Keith

K

@chickentender : Basically, if any new Sonos product, whenever bought in future, was added to the legacy system if Sonos made that addition possible, it would have no new i.e post legacy feature that would work - Hi Res then would be just one of these foregone.

Which raises a very intriguing point for the Alexa Sonos integration for integrating split systems: if via Alexa groups, using the Alexa app, a legacy product, and a modern product carrying subsequent to legacy date upgrades( including Hi Res capability if released) and which was on a split system, were to made a part of one group via Alexa, music play on both in perfect sync would then be possible?!

If so, it would be Amazon doing for Sonos something that Sonos has given up on:-)).

And that Hi Res enabled speaker could also play Hi Res files in standalone mode or along with other Hi Res speakers in the split system, with Amazon Alexa the cloud based bridge connecting the two systems when the whole system was required to play together for parties or such. 

@Ryan S : care to comment? 

Majik

 

Which is why this thread is about non Sonos ways ahead, once the legacy products die.

The hardware of the legacy products I don’t see them to die at all :wink:

But until then I would hope to see an open standard for in house audio distribution where you can mix and match devices from different manufactures and pick the software to your needs. Similar to the home automation standards. Then you are not locked in to a specific ecosystem of a particular manufacturer and you are going to have oodles of 3rd party solutions.

And that isn’t unreasonable in the longer term. And the original purpose of our Patent systems was to provide a route towards this whilst also protecting some of the interests of inventors. Yes, this system has been abused over recent decades (largely by armies of lawyers working for behemoth tech companies or, worse, patent troll companies) but the fundamental view that we should protect inventors from having their ideas stolen and exploited by others is still important. Without that we stifle innovation.

Sonos does have inventions in this case, which are protected by patents. 15 years ago no-one was doing properly synced multi-room digital audio. Others tried and failed. Sonos were the first to come up with ways to make it work.

Now there are ways that an industry standard can emerge but, if it involves patented Sonos technology then it’s up to Sonos whether they decide to licence it to that end or not. Longer term (in about 5 years time, I think) their key patents will expire and, I suspect, open standards will start to emerge. It doesn’t surprise me that Sonos are being aggressive in protecting their IPR at this time, especially given their success in the space over the last decade.

Cheers,

Keith

chickentender

@chickentender : Basically, if any new Sonos product, whenever bought in future, was added to the legacy system if Sonos made that addition possible, it would have no new i.e post legacy feature that would work - Hi Res then would be just one of these foregone.

Which raises a very intriguing point for the Alexa Sonos integration: if via Alexa groups, using the Alexa app, a legacy product, and a modern product carrying subsequent to legacy date upgrades( including Hi Res capability if released) and which was on a split system, were to made a part of one group via Alexa, music play on both in perfect sync would then be possible?!

If so, it would be Amazon doing for Sonos something that Sonos has given up on:-)).

And that Hi Res enabled speaker could also play Hi Res files in standalone mode or along with other Hi Res speakers in the split system, with Amazon Alexa the cloud based bridge connecting the two systems when the whole system was required to play together for parties or such. 

@Ryan S : care to comment? 

Yowsuh! I think I have to re-read that one in the morning. :joy:
I read it twice and am still not sure I followed but i think I know where you’re going.
(It’s 1:56am here and I am officially overdone. Catch you again.)

Majik

 

For what seems like forever, Sonos has maintained that “there is no science behind Hi Res”, which contains the 96/24 things referred to in the quote. And therefore Sonos will not incorporate that in its speakers. 

...

Now the Sonos quote above seems for the first time to be opening a window to the possibility of Hi Res Sonos speakers to be released after the legacy products are left behind in May. No more than a small opening to be sure, just a chink, but till now that window was firmly shut.

 

Bear in mind “hi res support” may not be the ability to render hi-res, but the ability to handle (and down-sample) hi-res formats. That would be an entirely reasonable thing to do if there were enough streaming sites and enough users with hires formats out there to justify catering to them.

And, frankly, t would probably be enough to satisfy the majority of the market, who seem to think that hi res formats will magically transform their moderately priced speakers used in an acoustically untreated living room in their noisy apartment into a high-end recording studio listening room).

;)

 

Cheers,

Keith

K

@Majik agreed and more:-). I have been saying for years over here that why does Sonos not bring in - to use the TV jargon - a HD Ready player that transcodes on the fly with a slightly higher buffer if needed and plays the music on HD files, that can then also be played in synch when grouped with present version players that are not HD Ready.

Every time I have been shouted down by the gurus here that this transcoding is a waste of resources and far better to downsample downloaded HD files offline as a one time effort and let these be used to serve Sonos. While correct from a engineering standpoint, this does not work for many customers who don't know how to do this downsampling, or don’t want to, but just want to be able to play their HD files and be able to drink that Kool-Aid. The use of which word should tell you that I agree with your second paragraph too.

F
Userlevel 2
Badge

@chickentender : Basically, if any new Sonos product, whenever bought in future, was added to the legacy system if Sonos made that addition possible, it would have no new i.e post legacy feature that would work - Hi Res then would be just one of these foregone.

Which raises a very intriguing point for the Alexa Sonos integration for integrating split systems: if via Alexa groups, using the Alexa app, a legacy product, and a modern product carrying subsequent to legacy date upgrades( including Hi Res capability if released) and which was on a split system, were to made a part of one group via Alexa, music play on both in perfect sync would then be possible?!

If so, it would be Amazon doing for Sonos something that Sonos has given up on:-)).

And that Hi Res enabled speaker could also play Hi Res files in standalone mode or along with other Hi Res speakers in the split system, with Amazon Alexa the cloud based bridge connecting the two systems when the whole system was required to play together for parties or such. 

@Ryan S : care to comment? 

I’ve got a question for those of you who’ve been looking at alternatives.

I’ve got Sonos in two locations: one legacy (Play:5 Gen 1 and Play:3s) and one modern (Playbar and Play:3s).

If services start to disappear from the legacy system I’m happy I can replace them with Raspberry Pi+media software+DAC->Line-in on Play:5 Gen 1).

My modern system however has no line-in and I’d like to tinker with adding one. Has anybody here any experience with using Toslink-in to Playbar from, say, a Toslink-enabled DAC?

Just planning for the long-term as all my hardware is working perfectly.

K

@FarFromGruntled : your post conveys that you are ok running split systems. If that is the case, why worry about the playbar at this time? Sitting in a modern system, it will keep getting every update.

And for the legacy system, there are many simpler options to fix the loss of services like Echo or Chromecast that can be wired to the line in on the 5. Unless you want to dabble for the heck of it.

F
Userlevel 2
Badge

@FarFromGruntled : your post conveys that you are ok running split systems. If that is the case, why worry about the playbar at this time? Sitting in a modern system, it will keep getting every update.

And for the legacy system, there are many simpler options to fix the loss of services like Echo or Chromecast that can be wired to the line in on the 5. Unless you want to dabble for the heck of it.

You’re right of course, and I’ve got a CCA that will do the job for the legacy system. You’re also right about the Playbar, but I just wondered how long we would have before the modern system becomes legacy v2. Once bitten, twice shy.

As I said, I’m planning for the long-term. I quite enjoy dabbling, but I’d rather not if I don’t have to, so my question about Toslink was as much for academic interest as anything else.

K

Yowsuh! I think I have to re-read that one in the morning. :joy:
I read it twice and am still not sure I followed but i think I know where you’re going.
(It’s 1:56am here and I am officially overdone. Catch you again.)

Lol. I know the feeling.

I think this cloud bridge between legacy and modern systems using Amazon Alexa groups should work, but I cannot test it  because Sonos has not brought the Alexa integration to India. In the Alexa app, one can group devices in a way that permanently (unless changed later) assigns any single Echo device to speakers that Alexa recognises and shows in the Alexa app; or many such can be assembled and assigned as a group by checking boxes next to Alexa discovered speakers. Any command by voice to the Echo device then gets music to play in sync without having to say more than “Alexa, Play such and such music”, via something in the cloud that streams this music to all checked box speakers, in sync. So, if the Alexa app is able to see Sonos speakers in a legacy system, as well as those in a modern system, checking boxes for both speakers while making a group should get the job done, thanks to Amazon tech extending a shake hand to Sonos servers.

No more split systems then, where Echo devices are deployed. This won’t work for NAS music play of course, because Amazon does not support that play.

Again, this one is for @Ryan S to have at!

K

@FarFromGruntled : in that case - and I don't know playbar so assuming that it has an optical input, what you want is the opposite of a DAC, you want a ADC. That accepts analog inputs from the CCA/Echo or such and supplies digital outputs to the playbar. 

Playbar owners to correct me if this is not a workable thing. But the need for this event may even become moot by a playbar hardware failure before the needs arises, if the legacying of the bar is far enough in the future.

D
Userlevel 7
Badge +5

@FarFromGruntled : in that case - and I don't know playbar so assuming that it has an optical input, what you want is the opposite of a DAC, you want a ADC. That accepts analog inputs from the CCA/Echo or such and supplies digital outputs to the playbar. 

Playbar owners to correct me if this is not a workable thing. But the need for this event may even become moot by a playbar hardware failure before the needs arises, if the legacying of the bar is far enough in the future.

The playbar is right now 7 years old and thus, ripe for a “2. gen” so right now i would think it could be superseeded any day and so only live on for 5 years from now .

K

Sonos continues to make the news for the wrong reasons, now for disclosing customer email addresses to each other:

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51315460

This reminds me of what Queen Elizabeth said at the end of 1992 to describe a year that saw the famous Princess Diana interview on BBC, and ended with Windsor Castle catching fire : Annus Horribilis.

Spence has seen similar in just month one of twelve in 2020.

melvimbe

Yowsuh! I think I have to re-read that one in the morning. :joy:
I read it twice and am still not sure I followed but i think I know where you’re going.
(It’s 1:56am here and I am officially overdone. Catch you again.)

Lol. I know the feeling.

I think this cloud bridge between legacy and modern systems using Amazon Alexa groups should work, but I cannot test it  because Sonos has not brought the Alexa integration to India.

 

 

Sonos and Alexa integrate in a one to one relationship.  That is that the Sonos app is given your single Alexa/Amazon account to connect to, and the Alexa apps (through the Sonos skill) is given your single Sonos account.   In order for your cloud bridge theory to work, Alexa would need to be able to see your legacy  and modern system speakers all under the same Sonos account.  I am doubtful that will happen, but things could change between now and May.

But that is not the only problem.  You would also need the Alexa groups to be capable of sending audio to more than one speaker system at a time.  As it stands right now, it does not look like it can.  I can’t do a full test as I only have two systems, Sonos and Alexa/echos.  What I can tell you that if I cannot set Sonos speakers and echo speakers as preferred speakers in the same Alexa group.  It stands to reason that the same would apply for 2 Sonos systems (if that is possible). 

Even if the two points above aren’t a problem, the two systems are not going to play in sync.  There isn’t any real ‘bridge’ going on here.  Alexa is simply passing instructions on to Sonos (thorugh API)to play audio directly from the source.  So for this scenario, you’d be passing two sets of instructions to two different systems that aren’t aware of any need to try and sync with the other system.

 

Again, things could change between now and May, but I think these will be real hurdles to deal with, that would require significant changes by both Sonos and Amazon.  I actually think that if there were to be any sort of bridge between legacy and modern, Sonos would try and do it on thier own, and at the local level, without cloud involvement.  I am NOT saying they will do this or even that I think they will.

 

 

 

Danny
K

@melvimbe ; I have read your response and am looking forward to see what @Ryan S has to say about my thinking on the cloud bridge as a way to integrate split systems.

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

I am curious what people think about the use of something like Spotify connect as the centre piece to their listening.  I know it would not work for everyone but I am just thinking out loud wondering if it would be a logical idea for someone who only uses streaming for their music listening.

I currently use Deezer rather than Spotify so I may be misunderstanding how Spotify Connect works.  Also I know Spotify does not do CD quality.  Also I have had sound quality issues with Spotify in the past that I believe have less to do with the bit rate than something in my configuration (ie. Amazon at the same bit rate sounded fine while spotify was fairly harsh). 

So those caveats aside the primary lesson from this recent sonos announcement is that regardless of what happens i do not want to be tied into a single ecosystem of a hardware/software manufacturer for my music.  Their profits increase in theory by the obsolescence of our systems.

So why tie in to a Spotify environment? Quite simply they are in the content business.  It is in their economic interest to make it as easy as possible to access their content.

If I correctly understand, once configured any devices using Spotify connect stream directly from their servers to the device.  So unlike say Bluetooth, I am not streaming from a phone and killing my battery, the Spotify app just controls changes.

Also, many products can become a Spotify connect end point so not tied to one manufacturer.  

Can use dumb speaker/amp/active monitors etc. and just buy a cheap Spotify end point device that only needs to do WiFi and Spotify connect.

Finally, the Spotify app contains all the features so not reliant on hardware companies for updates.

I am curious if anyone has any thoughts on this approach?  I may be off in my understanding of Spotify connect so I am hoping more serious Spotify users can comment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Terms & ConditionsCookie settings