The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

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K

@chickentender I may not have been clear enough - I am referring to getting album art for NAS play on a display, not on a phone or computer; for that I have done a lot of the folder.jpg thing in a very laborious way for most of my ripped CDs. 

And another interesting poke at Sonos over on the rant thread:

I did not receive the notices as all my products are modern.  Had i not seen some youtube videos i would be completely unaware of what is going on.  I guess we can look at this two ways.  One, they didnt want to unnecessarily worry unaffected customers.  Two, they would rather keep the issue hidden from new customers.  I guess which one we believe is closely related to whether we believe management actually cares about their customers or not.

Seems to be another telling comment.

chickentender

@chickentender I may not have been clear enough - I am referring to getting album art for NAS play on a display, not on a phone or computer; for that I have done a lot of the folder.jpg thing in a very laborious way for most of my ripped CDs. 

 

Ahhh… Yes, sorry, I misunderstood.

There are quite number of options, setup depending, to pull that off…
but I’m not certain how worthy any of them are of the trouble beyond eye-candy.

K

@chickentender Eye candy is what I thought as well - in fact before I did the folder.jpg thing, I had thought this about that as well.

But once the feature is seen in operation, one very quickly gets used to it and misses it when absent, especially for music from streaming sources that can pipe in a lot of new and therefore unfamiliar music.

And of course to be able to both see and hear well produced music videos elevates the experience to a much higher level - watching the masters make a guitar sing or some one like a 60+ Ginger Baker on the Cream’s Toad track is something that can never be equalled by just listening to it. Or to just watch Joanne Shaw Taylor even when she is doing nothing at all:grin:

That AV experience can be achieved on just the Show 5, though a Show 8 is a better idea if that is a requirement. 

chickentender

Well, video aside, for album art essentially most modern interfaces would do that on a controller, perhaps an inexpensive tablet or two for just that purpose, with mount/cradle placings wherever one likes, and since it’s the controller it isn’t tethered via audio cable to the speaker it’s at. PLEX, Spotify, Pandora, BlueOS… all have “now playing “ expanded artwork to show.

Full disclosure though, while an easy drop-in solution, Amazon and Google options still don’t appeal to me for many reasons. For obsolescence concerns, they’re off-the-charts. They’re mostly sold at loss-leader prices in a many cases because they’re buying your additional data at discount and selling you other goods. I’m just not interested in that sort of purchase, certainly not multiples. We have 3 Home Mini’s and that’s where it ends. :)  (Amazon has also irrevocably changed the city I lived in most of my life and not for the better so I’ve further animosity toward them, but that’s another story.)  All in all I want A/V equipment to be sorted by A/V companies, and I’ll never consider those two that.

I also realize this attitude is largely just shouting into the void, and I’m comfortable with that as well. :sweat_smile:

chickentender

And another interesting poke at Sonos over on the rant thread:

I did not receive the notices as all my products are modern.  Had i not seen some youtube videos i would be completely unaware of what is going on.  I guess we can look at this two ways.  One, they didnt want to unnecessarily worry unaffected customers.  Two, they would rather keep the issue hidden from new customers.  I guess which one we believe is closely related to whether we believe management actually cares about their customers or not.

Seems to be another telling comment.

I’ve successfully avoided the rant thread all day. That said, I might peek in and see if there’s still a show. 

K

@chickentender : I try to keep things simple for myself; I let my budget and what’s left in it decide my choices and there, Amazon/Google usually win comfortably. What that means to me in the long term if I open myself to exploitation - I will cross that bridge when it comes. A bus may run over me tomorrow and make those concerns moot. Yes, they also obsolete things, but the financial impact of that, I can afford because I buy only their cheap stuff. But even there, none of my USD 25 Dots are anywhere close to being obsoleted, my 2015 or so bought Kindle is still going strong.

Yes, they are able to then do targeted advertising aimed at me, but there is a flip side to that as well: I get to see what is probably of interest to me. And for them to sell me goods, I have to buy them - so I still have that power over them.

Your audio controller, placed in a cradle is still going to need a wire from the mains, mine has a pair of wires, that's all. Using a battery powered controller in a cradle does not cut it for me; keeping the battery topped up is task that is already a chore enough for my phone and Kindle. Plus, don’t forget that the Echo also does a lot more than just control+album art for those that are into the voice driven features. For instance, mine also allows my 7 year old granddaughter a way to jump into my bedroom any time from her bedroom in a distant home - and I have also set up things such that no other contact can do that. These devices can be as versatile as you want them to be.

Bottom line, my approach is to get the cheapest thing that will do the job; and these days it has almost become a hobby in every domain to get this done with the cheapest possible option. Which is also the way I will move forward as and when needed for Sonos replacements. And for others looking at similar cheap and simple approaches, Amazon/Google cannot be ignored. Those that have personal reasons for still ignoring them as you do, will do that, which is fine; but that approach may not hold for many more. 

chickentender

@chickentender : I try to keep things simple for myself; I let my budget and what’s left in it decide my choices and there, Amazon/Google usually win comfortably. What that means to me in the long term if I open myself to exploitation - I will cross that bridge when it comes. A bus may run over me tomorrow and make those concerns moot. Yes, they also obsolete things, but the financial impact of that, I can afford because I buy only their cheap stuff. But even there, none of my USD 25 Dots are anywhere close to being obsoleted, my 2015 or so bought Kindle is still going strong.

Yes, they are able to then do targeted advertising aimed at me, but there is a flip side to that as well: I get to see what is probably of interest to me. And for them to sell me goods, I have to buy them - so I still have that power over them.

Your audio controller, placed in a cradle is still going to need a wire from the mains, mine has a pair of wires, that's all. Using a battery powered controller in a cradle does not cut it for me; keeping the battery topped up is task that is already a chore enough for my phone and Kindle. Plus, don’t forget that the Echo also does a lot more than just control+album art for those that are into the voice driven features. For instance, mine also allows my 7 year old granddaughter a way to jump into my bedroom any time from her bedroom in a distant home - and I have also set up things such that no other contact can do that. These devices can be as versatile as you want them to be.

Bottom line, my approach is to get the cheapest thing that will do the job; and these days it has almost become a hobby in every domain to get this done with the cheapest possible option. Which is also the way I will move forward as and when needed for Sonos replacements. And for others looking at similar cheap and simple approaches, Amazon/Google cannot be ignored. Those that have personal reasons for still ignoring them as you do, will do that, which is fine; but that approach may not hold for many more. 

I completely understand the appeal and convenience, and certainly price.
As far as the controller though, not wired connection needed if it’s the Sonos controller, or PLEX connecting to Sonos. Or simply Airplay. Or for that matter one-off Bluetooth connect. There are so many cheap Bluetooth speakers available, and Airplay becoming more and more supported that honestly the last thing I’d want is the music source tied to a screen tied to the service and tether physically to a speaker and power. (But then again with the Echo show at least its always there and no faffing about with configurations - it’s ready to go - so what do I know).
I *have* looked at the Google Home screen devices (Lenovo a number of times) for use in the kitchen for recipes mainly, but I keep that away from audio. I’m sure it’ll all be tied as one eventually anyhow, but not yet, not for me. I just continue bringing my laptop in in tent-mode. :)
One thing is for sure - there MANY OPTIONS. 

K


One thing is for sure - there MANY OPTIONS. 

Yep. Is it time however to fork this thread into legacy and modern?:joy: See, I know all the jargon...

Legacy for folks like me that want to pursue the simple, no geek qualification required type of approaches and modern, for folks like you?

chickentender


One thing is for sure - there MANY OPTIONS. 

Yep. Is it time however to fork this thread into legacy and modern?:joy: See, I know all the jargon...

Legacy for folks like me that want to pursue the simple, no geek qualification required type of approaches and modern, for folks like you?

Well, that delineation could sound something like “Plug N Play” vs. “Some Assembly Required”
I’d say you’ve shown a propensity to easily walk the line. :)

K

The more that I think about it, the more I see sense in now forking this thread, handing over the advanced approaches discussions to a new thread, while the simpler approaches that do not need anything more than stereo cables and third party off the shelf boxes to continue on this one, that I will remain associated with.

Anyone here that wishes to start the new thread via a fork to this one may please pm me to arrive at a quick common understanding of how to get this going in a way that allows both threads to remain useful. It will take just one or two back and forth messages to arrive at that, I am sure.

K

More interesting stuff from the venting room, a quoted message from Sonos Support:

Hello Michael,
I know the older products can't support audio sampled at 96 KHz with a 24 bit depth. That would be one thing that newer products with more processing power and a larger buffer could handle that the older products can't. I don't know if there are plans for newer products to support high res audio, but that is one example of something the older products can't do that the newer ones could.

I do know that there are new products that will support things the older products just can't. I really can't talk about what.

Very interesting, that subtle shift! Of course, the user that this was sent to has said he has no clue about either the 96 or the 24, and he has no desire to know about it. Which is fine, many have no wish to, they just want the music to play.

For what seems like forever, Sonos has maintained that “there is no science behind Hi Res”, which contains the 96/24 things referred to in the quote. And therefore Sonos will not incorporate that in its speakers. 

Many that have exposure to the subject - theoretical and practical - believe that Sonos is correct and have vociferously argued against those that claimed that this lack in Sonos automatically meant that Sonos is not as good in sound quality and can never be as good in that area, compared to modern speakers like Bluesound etc, that do have the capability to play Hi Res music. I have been one of those that have argued in favour of Sonos, and I continue to hold that Sonos and I are correct. There are some threads here on that subject that have acquired legendary status.

However, Sonos has been hammered for many years by the media at large for not being a Hi Res capable speaker. Which says how ignorant the media is, but that isn't the point.

Now the Sonos quote above seems for the first time to be opening a window to the possibility of Hi Res Sonos speakers to be released after the legacy products are left behind in May. No more than a small opening to be sure, just a chink, but till now that window was firmly shut.

Many that supported a no Hi Res Sonos will have egg on their face if that happens; so will I, but won’t be here in a significant way to feel embarrassed:relaxed:  And some of these supporters that remain, may well execute some fancy moves to re-align themselves with a Hi Res Sonos. Of course, the Bluesounds of the world may also do stuff like “ Welcome Sonos to the world of Hi Res” and allied nonsense, and indicate that the Sonos stance in the past was just sour grapes.

Why am I speculating on these lines after seeing the Sonos quote that fuelled it? For those that will remain with legacy products to know that the science will not change when Sonos does; believe that even if you see Sonos ads in future that claim different; that science has been rigorously tested and found to be robust.

A
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. I'm not impacted this time, but it is likely I will be next time, and the time after, how many separate systems might need to be managed? When the next products go legacy they can't go down to this Mays codebase without loosing functionality, so Sonos needs to then support 3 versions, original legacy, new legacy and modern. Which means either 3 systems, or the legacy sytem supporting 2 different software versions, something they say they can't do today. There are some big implications to either Sonos or their customer base which they need to answer or things will only get worse

That is an excellent point! I have some thoughts, but this is definitely one for @Ryan S to answer . Whose nerves must be close to getting shot...Sonos needs to think of spelling him every few days for r&r before he is told, as Henry V told his soldiers at Agincourt...once more into the breach my friend...if he is to last even till just May:-)

It’s a great question, but I can’t answer it. We haven’t shared all of the details of how the current legacy process is happening. Let’s get through May first before we start worrying about unannounced things. If you haven’t heard it yet @RedSonos, we are committed to supporting Sonos speakers with software updates for at least five years after we’ve stopped selling them. We’ve got a track record of much longer, as all of the devices going into legacy now were designed at least a decade ago and some of them we stopped selling around 10 years ago. They aren’t getting moved to legacy because they’re old, it’s because their hardware can't keep up with the software demands of the future, all of the modern devices are quite capable of handling those needs. 

I’m sorry Ryan,

 

this is political spin, putting a positive on that you have supported for much longer than 5 years

T
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Thanks for all the thoughts on album art. Art brings the whole experience, just cool to have it dancing around on a large screen.  Will explore accordingly.  Here, we use MediaMonkey, Gold version to manage our music collection.  Will have to check to see what kind of metadata edit capability it has, if any.  Obviously want to explore that before, making switch to different collection management software.

https://www.mediamonkey.com/

As I read through all the observations, the TechGuy advice and modularity approach weighs heavily...gotta long term move in that direction.  Sonos would be wise to migrate similarly.

No progress yet on the noted earlier plans ahead.

K

The more that I think about it, the more I see sense in now forking this thread, handing over the advanced approaches discussions to a new thread, while the simpler approaches that do not need anything more than stereo cables and third party off the shelf boxes to continue on this one, that I will remain associated with.

Anyone here that wishes to start the new thread via a fork to this one may please pm me to arrive at a quick common understanding of how to get this going in a way that allows both threads to remain useful. It will take just one or two back and forth messages to arrive at that, I am sure.

A bump before I call it a day in India, with the bolded bits for attention.

C
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I do know that there are new products that will support things the older products just can't. I really can't talk about what.

Very interesting, that subtle shift! Of course, the user that this was sent to has said he has no clue about either the 96 or the 24, and he has no desire to know about it. Which is fine, many have no wish to, they just want the music to play.

For what seems like forever, Sonos has maintained that “there is no science behind Hi Res”, which contains the 96/24 things referred to in the quote. And therefore Sonos will not incorporate that in its speakers. 

 

Here is a detailed article about the inner workings and the details of ZP80/ZP100

Under the Hood: Sonos brings multi-zone digital audio to life

K

@Cisume : Very good link, thanks. It also suggests how the problems Sonos is facing today are rooted in the very successful architecture choices they made yesterday(2005 and prior).

Their other problem is that the limitations that made these choices the right ones back then have been largely removed via tech progress since then - over 15 years, which for tech, is huge. If Sonos were to start from a clean sheet today, they would quite likely not make identical choices. As Echo has not, for instance. But having made their choices, these are now boxing Sonos in. It is a classic and well known conundrum that hits all successful companies based on innovation sooner or later - the tech ones tend to be the later category. It then gets to re-innovate or perish. And Sonos hasn't done significant re-innovation till now. Can they now, with all the extra memory that will be released? That is the big question, and the basis of what is just as much an existential crisis for them, as this one threatens to be. I have serious doubts that Hi Res will be the saviour.

To clarify to others: the first sentence that seems to be mine in the boxed quote in the preceding post is actually part of a Sonos response; my response to the Sonos one is in the remaining two paragraphs. A full understanding of this very interesting twist is best gained by reading my post preceding.

J

For beginners (me) : RPI streaming 101 - like using dots with Sonos as described in the first post but you pick the software

https://darko.audio/2020/01/raspberry-pi-audio-streaming-101/

C
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Can they now, with all the extra memory that will be released? That is the big question, and the basis of what is just as much an existential crisis for them, as this one threatens to be. I have serious doubts that Hi Res will be the saviour.

To clarify to others: the first sentence that seems to be mine in the boxed quote in the preceding post is actually part of a Sonos response; my response to the Sonos one is in the remaining two paragraphs. A full understanding of this very interesting twist is best gained by reading my post preceding.

I think it’s more a question if they want to solve this problem or not. There are ways to do it software / hardware. You could install firmware on older systems which work completely different It seems they choose not to. As for Hi Res , most people these days are used to the sound quality from mobile devices which is poor, partly from the used audio source. A point Neil Young always hammered down that people don’t know anymore how music really sounds because they grew up with low sound quality devices. We had in the past other high quality audio formats which disappeared like .Super Audio CD (SACD) , DVD Audio , PonoMusic ( Neil Young’s project ). If you going to sell devices with a limited lifetime then quality doesn’t matter. Why spend extra money for a soon obsolete product.? If you go the quality route then you make sure that all products keep working and you build on your legacy. All depends what they choose as their future market segment and competition.

C
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For beginners (me) : RPI streaming 101 - like using dots with Sonos as described in the first post but you pick the software

https://darko.audio/2020/01/raspberry-pi-audio-streaming-101/

you can get high quality DACs which plug into the Pi bus

K

 If you going to sell devices with a limited lifetime then quality doesn’t matter. Why spend extra money for a soon obsolete product.?

If you are referring here to sound quality I don’t agree. There is now so much cheap mass manufactured componentry available that excellent sound quality can be obtained, very cheaply, with the right design. Take a look at the pro audio monitor market to see that.

If you are referring to build quality I agree but in a limited way. I have had more hardware issues with more expensive HiFi kit in the past than with cheaper Sonos products, in a similar amount of time. The key to this is being able to reach a scale where the components can be bought in bulk, and therefore cheaply, and where state of the art manufacturing and testing facility costs can be absorbed. These then provide better build quality than what the HiFi makers with their low scales can deliver at higher price points.

What limited lifetimes can make unnecessary is expensive after warranty parts and service support. There is an environmental cost of this approach though, that we don't realise because these costs are not in the purchase prices.

C
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@Kumar I meant build quality and comparing for example the current SONOS Amps to the competition.

I have to knock on wood ,I never had any problems with amplifiers is the past. Devices with rubber involved mechanics like CD/DVD players it’s a different story. They don’t age well if not used on a regular basis. :wink: .

K

@Cisume : when I referred to a poorer record of failures, this was without taking into account CD player tray mechanism issues or belt changes for turn-tables; I had failures in solid state amps as well. None in Sonos.

The thing is that modern tech has meant that quality v price is no longer an either/or thing. Get the volume levels high enough, then low price AND high reliability can be achieved if the design is right and the manufacturing strategy is properly executed. Take any JBL portable speaker like a Flip or Charge model as an example.

And where Sonos is concerned their success on this front is precisely why this thread even exists - because their hardware looks to comfortably be able to outlast the software. 

C
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@Cisume : when I referred to a poorer record of failures, this was without taking into account CD player tray mechanism issues or belt changes for turn-tables; I had failures in solid state amps as well. None in Sonos.

The thing is that modern tech has meant that quality v price is no longer an either/or thing. Get the volume levels high enough, then low price AND high reliability can be achieved if the design is right and the manufacturing strategy is properly executed. Take any JBL portable speaker like a Flip or Charge model as an example.

And where Sonos is concerned their success on this front is precisely why this thread even exists - because their hardware looks to comfortably be able to outlast the software. 

I don’t have a complain about SONOS Amps quality. They worked over the years flawlessly. What I tried to say is, if from now on the product life cycle is 5 years, compared with competing products it’s not a good deal and better choices out there.

K

What I tried to say is, if from now on the product life cycle is 5 years, compared with competing products it’s not a good deal and better choices out there.

I take your point; but your statement about 5 years lifecycle henceforth is not quite what Sonos is saying, but I will leave it to Sonos to defend themselves here, I haven't the energy/inclination to keep doing that:thermometer_face:

Separately though, I agree that 5 years life is ridiculously short at the Sonos price points. The only reason I think my travel required BT portables will fail before that is because their rechargeable batteries might. And even the much abused in this community Apple products that I use sailed past 5 years with ease. My MacBook from Feb 2014 is still solid as I type on it just now - and unlike Sonos, that involves mechanical things like the keys, and is subjected to closing and opening the lid many times a day - effortlessly updating to Catalina, the latest Apple OS, and even has no battery issues. My Apple Time Capsule base station that anchors my WiFi continues to work 24/7 flawlessly since 2011, along with a couple of 2011 Apple Airport Expresses that I use as WiFi access points. 

Which is why this thread is about non Sonos ways ahead, once the legacy products die.

PS: Interesting to note that both the Apple Time Capsule and the Airport Express of 2011 have been discontinued by Apple some years ago - to the extent that Apple no longer makes such products and has exited this line of business. The devices however continue to receive security updates from Apple who have never said that these would stop. When they do die, I will have to go third party - there is no Apple replacement now even if I wanted one.

K

@Cisume : now that I think about this 5 years thing more, it seems to me that this is yet another mis-step by Sonos in recent days. What they should have said is that all our hardware has a warranty of 1 year( or 2, if that is what they offer) from the date it is first sold, and we will thereafter provide software updates till the hardware dies.

I can guess at the reason they are scared to say this - there are still modern products that are not far from being legacied, having a memory of 64 mb, that is not much of an improvement over the 32 mb in legacied products, seeing that the latest products have 1024 mb. Now, if all modern products had 1024 mb, saying this would not have been so scary for Sonos.

Maybe they should have legacied all products less than 512 mb just now and done a one time penitance. That would have allowed to them not get stuck in the 5 year trap, as a compensation. Perhaps that might have been a better way to go?

 

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