Seeking fix for bug: Sonos S1 Controller on Mac hangs at startup when NordVPN is active

My Sonos speaker is on the same subnet as the Mac where my controller is running.  Sample traceroute to my speaker IP when NordVPN is active:

$ traceroute 192.168.1.102
traceroute to 192.168.1.102 (192.168.1.102), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets
 1  192.168.1.102 (192.168.1.102)  4.602 ms  3.031 ms  1.875 ms

The traffic from the controller to the speaker is not being routed through the NordVPN servers.

if the VPN is not providing split-tunnelling, this is all expected behaviour.

The VPN in my case doesn’t route traffic for local LAN destinations (like the Sonos), so the behavior is unexpected and there is something else wrong causing the controller to hang.  It is a problem either with the controller software or with macOS.

I will note that I have a different experience when I try it from a different Mac (M1 chip with MacOS Ventura): the S1 Sonos Controller works there with NordVPN active (8.8.3 version) and does not hang.

Forgot to mention: version of S1 Controller is 11.10.1.

Hi @gvup5lmo 

Thanks for the info. I’ll flag this with someone in engineering, but as we don’t support the concurrent use of VPNs, I can imagine the response will be just that.

Hello, I am on macOS Ventura 13.6.3 with Sonos S2 15.11. I also control my speakers with an iPhone and an iPad. Sonos S2 applications are also updated there as soon as they become available. So I'm up to date everywhere.

On these three devices, I installed NordVPN (8.15.1). On my Mac, IT’S A DISASTER!… The application freezes after a while, requiring you to kill it to access it. And this morning, I had the first general crash of my machine in two years simply by trying to switch the S2 application?!…

What I don't understand is that on macOS, Sonos S2 hangs and freezes often, while on iPhone and iPad I never had this problem!…

Thank you for your valuable insights… ;-)

Bonjour, je suis sur macOS Ventura 13.6.3 avec Sonos S2 15.11. Je contrôle aussi mes enceintes avec un iPhone et un iPad. Les applications Sonos S2 y sont aussi mises à jour dès leur disponibilité. Je suis donc à jour partout.

Sur ces trois matériels, j’ai installé NordVPN (8.15.1). Sur mon mac, C’EST UNE CATASTROPHE !… L’application se gèle au bout d’un moment, obligeant à la tuer pour y avoir accès. Et ce matin, j’ai eu le premier plantage général de ma machine depuis deux ans tout simplement en voulant basculer l’application S2 ?!…

Ce que je ne comprends pas, c’est que sur macOS, Sonos S2 se bloque et freeze souvent, alors que sur iPhone et iPad je n’ai jamais eu ce problème !…

Merci de vos précieux éclairages…  ;-)

Hi @tempodeux 

That sounds to me like a good reason to contact NordVPN and ask them why the behaviour is not consistent - it sounds like split-tunnelling is not operating as it should.

We do not support the use of VPNs, so I can’t provide further support other than to suggest you uninstall the VPN software, or to suggest that you configure your router to connect to the VPN rather than individual devices (if possible). I cannot guarantee that music services will not block you for doing so, however.

I hope this helps.

Hi @Corry P

Thank you Corry P. for your quick response. It's really very appreciable... ;-)

On the other hand, blaming a third-party provider (the VPN) seems a bit light and easy to me. Especially since from what I understand perfectly, it's not just NordVPN that doesn't like S2; other VPN software suffers from the same symptom!?...

Perhaps one day, manufacturers and other service providers will realize (but I highly doubt it), that invoking these kinds of excuses no longer work and have become IN-SUP-POR-TA-BLES for users including all of us. But I also understand perfectly that investing time to resolve compatibility problems COSTS the company... and you have to make money, no matter what!...

The SONOS system works really well in my home and I am delighted with it. It's a shame that the software part is not at the same level (the SONOS S2 application on macOS is really ugly and very poorly constructed in my humble opinion).

Thanks again Corry P.

Best regards.

Merci Corry P. pour votre retour si rapide. C'est vraiment très appréciable...  ;-)

Par contre, renvoyer la faute sur un fournisseur tiers (le VPN) me semble un peu léger et facile. Surtout que d'après ce que j'ai parfaitement compris, il n'y a pas que NordVPN qui n'aime pas S2 ; d'autres logiciels VPN souffrent du même symptôme !?...

Peut-être qu'un jour, les industriels et autres fournisseurs de services se rendront compte (mais j'en doute fortement), qu'invoquer ce genre d'excuses ne passent plus et sont devenues IN-SUP-POR-TA-BLES pour les usagers dont nous sommes tous. Mais je comprends aussi parfaitement qu'investir du temps pour résoudre les problèmes de compatibilités COUTENT CHER à l'entreprise... et il faut bien faire de l'argent, coute que coute !...

Le système SONOS fonctionne vraiment très bien chez moi et j'en suis ravi. Dommage que la partie logicielle ne soit pas au même niveau (l'application SONOS S2 sur macOS est vraimlent laide et très mal foutue à mon humble avis).

Merci encore Corry P.

Bien cordialement.

Hi @tempodeux 

I’m not really blaming NordVPN - I’m blaming the very type of service they provide, which is Virtual Private Networking. But, the fact that you have NordVPN on both your computer and phone and see different results suggests to me that perhaps there is a difference in how they operate - whether or not there’s supposed to be, I have no real idea, but it may be worth asking them.

The Sonos app, in order to be able to do anything at all, must be able to communicate on the local network with your Sonos system. The very definition of VPN means the app cannot do this when a VPN is active, though split-tunnelling (allowing certain apps to access the local network rather than being connected to the VPN should circumvent that). If you haven’t specifically instructed your NordVPN software to allow the Sonos app access to your local network, please do so (assuming it’s possible).

Sonos has been around since before smartphones existed, and back then, you needed a PC/Mac or a Sonos Controller (a dedicated hardware device) to control the system. After the advent of smartphones, however - and their significant proliferation - we opted to essentially halt all progress on the PC/Mac apps, disable configuration options, and only maintain the apps just enough to keep them working at minimal functionality - you’ll notice that all configuration must now be performed on an Android/iOS Sonos app. I believe (it was before my time) this decision was largely based on our metrics of how many people were using each kind of app (we have exact figures). Maintaining full functionality of the desktop apps just wasn’t effective use of our resources, and to do so presumably would have required an increase in the cost of our products for customers that simply weren’t using those platforms to control their Sonos systems anyway.

I am glad to hear that you are delighted with your Sonos system itself - thank you for the positive feedback!

I hope this helps.

@Corry P

Thank you Corry P. for your explanations.

I clearly understood the change in direction of the Sonos application, abandoning the essential “administrative” functions on its macOS application. Too bad and highly confusing (especially for new users, I think, unless they are primarily on iDevices).

I completely understand the idea that I need to change my habits and ONLY use the application on iPhone or iPad. Afterwards, you shouldn't be afraid to change your habits. I'll think about it...

The thing that puts me off a little is the size of these currencies and the complexity imposed on the application to display all the functions on such small screens.

It is certain, for my part, that I have never, ever had a problem with S2 on smartphone and tablet, that's for sure.

You wrote: “If you haven’t specifically instructed your NordVPN software to allow the Sonos app access to your local network, please do so (assuming it’s possible).”
I will see if this is possible, I seem to remember this impossibility with NordVPN, memories of having read a discussion thread a few years ago already!... Being absolutely not competent for all these Network questions, I think I'm not going to insist and let this “fight” go. Manufacturers and other access providers always end up winning, don’t they!...

;-)

Merci Corry P. pour vos explications.

J'avais bien compris le changement d'orientation de l'application Sonos, délaissant l'essentielles des fonctions “administratives” sur son application macOS. Dommage et fortement déroutant (surtout pour les nouveaux utilisateurs, je pense, à moins qu'ils soient essentiellement sur iDevices).

J'entends parfaitement l'idée qu'il me faille changer mes habitudes et ne passer QUE par l'application sur iPhone ou iPad. Après, il ne faut pas avoir peur de changer ses habitudes. Je vais y réfléchir...

La chose qui me rebute un peu est la dimension de ces devises et la complexité imposée à l'application de mettre en scène toutes les fonctions sur de si petits écrans.

Il est sûr, de mon côté, que je n'ai jamais, jamais, eu de problème avec S2 sur smartphone et tablette, c'est certain.

Vous avez écris : “If you haven’t specifically instructed your NordVPN software to allow the Sonos app access to your local network, please do so (assuming it’s possible).”
Je vais regarder si cela est possible, je crois me souvenir de cette impossibilité avec NordVPN, souvenirs d'avoir lu un fil de discussion il y a quelques années déjà !... N'étant absolument pas compétent pour toutes ces questions de Réseau, je pense que je ne vais pas insister et laisser tomber ce “combat”. Les industriels et autres fournisseurs d'accès finissent toujours par gagner, n'est-ce pas !...

;-)

@Corry P It would be nice to get your response to @gvup5lmo‘s reply to you, which suggests that your explanation cannot be correct.

Moderator edit: dead link removed

Hi @Antonio_2 

I am unable to view the reply you linked to on the NordVPN site due to website filtering in place on my work PC. Could you please copy and paste the content of the reply here in this thread? I’ll be happy to respond.

@Corry P You did reply to @gvup5lmo, saying that you’d flag the issue with engineering, but that was 6 months ago. Did you get a response from an engineer? The point being that, when a machine is connected to a VPN server, the desktop controller and the speaker remain on the same subnet, so the explanation you gave cannot be the right one. The situation would be slightly less frustrating if we were given an explanation that made sense. 

Hi @Antonio_2 

Ah - I understand, though I am now confused about your link to the NordVPN website in your last post (Edit: I managed to look and it is a dead link - it will be removed)

The response from engineering was that we don’t support the use of VPNs, and due to this, they were not sufficiently impelled to investigate further.

Apologies - I don’t consider myself a networking expert by any means (and as VPNs are unsupported, there isn’t exactly a lot of documentation on them available to me), so it does seem I used incorrect language when describing the issue before: my use of the word “subnet” was incorrect as the IP address of the device doesn’t change when connected to a VPN, but that device’s resulting inability to communicate with other devices on the local network (without split-tunnelling) will be an issue when the Sonos app is trying to communicate with the system. What this re-routing is specifically called, I don’t know, but it will impede the app’s efforts to communicate with the speakers.

Regardless of the explanation/reason of/for the issue, VPNs are not supported by Sonos - if your VPN does not permit a connection between your Sonos app and Sonos speakers, that is to be expected. Should the VPN have a tunnelling feature that doesn’t seem to help the situation, I can only recommend you get in touch with the VPN’s support team for assistance - perhaps their split-tunnelling only works with unicast network packets, which would probably be an issue for our app. Our answer remains that the VPN should be removed for correct usage of the Sonos app.

I hope this helps.

@Corry P Thanks for taking the time to explain. Still lots of unanswered questions but, if the engineers aren’t forthcoming with details, I guess we’re stuck.

Since a VPN is designed to stop ‘extra’ connections except from one source to another, and Sonos works by each device creating multiple connections, both to the controller and to the outside world, there’s some logic in the fact that Sonos doesn’t work with VPNs. They’re in direct opposition in functionality. 

As was said in the very first reply, for any VPN to work with Sonos it must support split-tunneling. This is a feature that sends external network calls through the VPN, but stays out of the way of local network traffic.