Zp 24/96
A
Ability to play 24bit/96 files (like the competition: slimdevices transporter)
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By the way, what "developed" is that dozens of sock puppets registered just to vote in favor of HiRez. Check the usernames in favor of HiRez under the voting details, many have 1 post (or less).
I checked all 40 users who were in favor of "It's a high-priority feature that should be developed before anything else" with my mod tools. All their IPs ever used on this forum were unique, there is no indication that any of them is using multiple aliases on the forum.
Good to know. Still, it is a little disconcerting that many of the supporters apparently registered for the poll and nothing else. Sort of like the "1 post and out" "I'll buy 2 dozen zones if you put out an iPhone app" campaigners who were never heard from again once the app came to fruition. Apple users and audiophiles are a fanatical bunch. 😉
Userlevel 2
Sorry kinda expected to see it in the Sound Ideas forum. Maybe all polls (of value) should be moved to their own section so that people can browse and vote at their leisure?
The very fact that there is an active thread in Sound Ideas on the matter but an inactive poll in Digital Expert (last post Feb '10) doesn't help.
The very fact that there is an active thread in Sound Ideas on the matter but an inactive poll in Digital Expert (last post Feb '10) doesn't help.
It actually probably makes no difference. Regular users will see the poll if it is active. The fact that it went inactive is more down to the fact everyone who cares has probably already voted. Wherever we put these things, they'll eventually drift out of visibility if the threads aren't active.
Of course new users won't see this thread as a priority over any of the other thousands of threads here, but that's about right. Those that care passionately will find the thread one way or another (even if they are directed to it by another user).
Or, in the case of the vote'n'run members, they will be directed to it by whichever Sonos user asked them to register and vote for them to prop up their side of the argument.
I'm extremely tempted to adjust the numbers based on eliminating those that only registered in order to vote as this sort of "recruiting support" skews the numbers. If I did this it would reduce the level of support for Hires being a priority feature to 27 votes (22.7%).
However, these sort of polls are not in any way accurate or representative of much in any case.
To contrast these results, I ran a similar poll on a private, non-audio forum with over 6,000 members. The thread got over 500 views but only 47 votes. Less than 10% of the views resulted in a vote, showing that, outside of specialist audio forums, people really don't care about this sort of stuff assuming they even understand it (I got nearly as many posts as votes on that thread, with a lot of people stating they wouldn't vote as they didn't understand the technology at all).
Of the people who voted, only 1 thought hires was important. The others (who knew) all argued against it.
However, the main message was one of apathy to the whole subject. The trouble with any poll like this is that the people who care strongly will vote. The people who don't will ignore it. This tends to skew the results one way or another.
Forum polls are fun, but they are rarely statistically significant.
Cheers,
Keith
Userlevel 2
Here's the problem with defending the status quo when it comes to not developing for 24 bit.
Many people with little understanding of marketing say, "there aren't enough people who want this," and complain that this audience is small but noisy.
The thing is that small and noisy is precisely where market success lies. The large middle doesn't care. They're not searching for an audio solution. They're not visiting websites, they're not asking, they're not talking. They're satisfied with what they've got.
It's sometimes possible to reach this group if you have a ton of money and a ton of distribution. But generally, no, you've got no prayer.
The future of Sonos lies in catering to and delighting the weird edges and giving them something to talk about. An idea worth spreading.
Let's not forget that the recently deceased buyer of Newsweek made his fortune at Harman, selling stereos to people precisely like the small noisy group that some on this thread are dismissing.
Sonos doesn't need everyone to succeed. They need just 1% of the households of the usa to be delighted. And the single biggest opportunity for them is to add features that appeal to people who care about their stereo.
Better hurry. As soon as someone solves a problem for a noisy small audience, they run to it, and then that door shuts.
http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/sep2008/id20080924_140114.htm
Many people with little understanding of marketing say, "there aren't enough people who want this," and complain that this audience is small but noisy.
The thing is that small and noisy is precisely where market success lies. The large middle doesn't care. They're not searching for an audio solution. They're not visiting websites, they're not asking, they're not talking. They're satisfied with what they've got.
It's sometimes possible to reach this group if you have a ton of money and a ton of distribution. But generally, no, you've got no prayer.
The future of Sonos lies in catering to and delighting the weird edges and giving them something to talk about. An idea worth spreading.
Let's not forget that the recently deceased buyer of Newsweek made his fortune at Harman, selling stereos to people precisely like the small noisy group that some on this thread are dismissing.
Sonos doesn't need everyone to succeed. They need just 1% of the households of the usa to be delighted. And the single biggest opportunity for them is to add features that appeal to people who care about their stereo.
Better hurry. As soon as someone solves a problem for a noisy small audience, they run to it, and then that door shuts.
http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/sep2008/id20080924_140114.htm
Here the problem with using half-baked marketing concepts to argue for a feature request.
The trouble is people who don't understand Marketing think that, just because some players have been successful capturing and exploiting the high-end niche, that that's where a company like Sonos must be.
Those people, who don't understand marketing, also mistake smaller niches with being inseparable from high-end, which they are not. The market is full of niches to exploit. There is a niche, for instance, of people who simply dislike or otherwise want to avoid or have an alternative to Apple. This is almost certainly a much larger niche than the audiophile one (although there is certainly an overlap).
Being a Marketing Professional with many years of Product Development on both the Engineering and the Marketing side, I understand this.
I also understand that broad-brush statements about what the market is or isn't for a product like Sonos is fraught with assumptions and errors, and no-one will know for certain without the benefit of market data, including market research information.
I don't paint myself as a "guru", but simply an experienced at the coalface worker with many years of years actually doing hands-on Product Development.
Cheers,
Keith
The trouble is people who don't understand Marketing think that, just because some players have been successful capturing and exploiting the high-end niche, that that's where a company like Sonos must be.
Those people, who don't understand marketing, also mistake smaller niches with being inseparable from high-end, which they are not. The market is full of niches to exploit. There is a niche, for instance, of people who simply dislike or otherwise want to avoid or have an alternative to Apple. This is almost certainly a much larger niche than the audiophile one (although there is certainly an overlap).
Being a Marketing Professional with many years of Product Development on both the Engineering and the Marketing side, I understand this.
I also understand that broad-brush statements about what the market is or isn't for a product like Sonos is fraught with assumptions and errors, and no-one will know for certain without the benefit of market data, including market research information.
I don't paint myself as a "guru", but simply an experienced at the coalface worker with many years of years actually doing hands-on Product Development.
Cheers,
Keith
Userlevel 2
Frankly, I'm astonished at the number of posts arguing against a technological improvement that will make the product better. From all the resistance here, you would think I had suggested putting a bar of gold bullion in each new Sonos product for decoration, thereby raising the cost by $400,000! This is in fact an inexpensive proposition and is implemented on integrated sound chips and all sorts of media players, except a Sonos of course. It will make no difference to those of you who wish to play compressed, lossy sound files; but will allow others to play better than CD quality sound files. Surely an improvement? Still backwards compatible, no? A useful additional feature? Or, is this forum all about arguing against change and placing ostrich heads firmly in the sand? I would say hires is definitely gaining popularity because I have more and more files in this format that are increasingly easy to find; I can purchase said files from more and more online vendors (I recently bought Radiohead's King of Limbs 24-bit from 7digital; also see Linn Records, Bowers & Wilkins Society of Sound, HDtracks, etc); and more bands are supporting direct downloads in this format (Radiohead of course, Paul McCartney's recent Wings re-release, etc). Now, there are lots of posts for functionality I don't require and would never use, but I don't argue against them: If users want something, let them have it I say (well, maybe not decorative gold bullion). But, I think it shows a lack of foresight from naysayers here and Sonos itself, if it doesn't continue the technological development of its products. The format battle is won, the quality war is just beginning... Sonos can ignore hires if it wishes and I'll just take my money elsewhere and buy a player from Logitech, Naim, Linn, Rotel, Yamaha, Olive, Marantz, etc, etc. Remember: It's all about the music! That's why we listen to these boxes; and I make no apology for wishing for the best sound quality available thereby increasing my enjoyment of the MUSIC.
I'm certainly not arguing against it if you are referring to me.
Perhaps you should actually read the thread and understand what people are arguing for and against and why, because if your post is your conclusion then you haven't done this very well.
I'll summarise a couple of key points.
Firstly a key fact:
Developing this capability will take time and cost money and will take development resources away from other feature developments.
That is indisputable.
The small, but vocal, group of hires true believers think that there is no other feature more beneficial, popular, or obvious than hires and that it should be developed as a priority.
However, many others believe hires is a waste of time as there is yet to be anything buy apocryphal evidence that hires formats actually sound better. Most of the properly conducted scientific studies conclude that noone (or at best, a vanishingly small number of people) can hear the difference between equivalent hires and standard res. In any case, the number of sources of hires music compared to those for standard or compressed music is also vanishingly small.
The people who believe that also believe that the money, time, and other resources required to develop it would be better spent on other more beneficial and/or mainstream capabilities. This is a perfectly valid and rational argument.
I would, personally, like to see hires support on Sonos. However, I do appreciate it is a niche feature request. The vast majority of Sonos users have probably never even heard of hires yet alone know what it is and want it.
So, it's a niche feature, for a very small number of Sonos customers and it's of dubious benefit.
Just why should this be a high priority again?
Personally I think we are missing a step in the market. There is nowhere that sells standard res downloads even though the source material is readily available. The only way to get standard res onto something like Sonos is to buy CDs and rip them. If someone were to start offering standard res downloads at a price comparable to buying the CD, then this would be of far more interest to most people than hires.
Cheers,
Keith
P.S. I have a number of reasons why I would like hires support, but one key one is that I think there aren't yet any standards for file format in this area yet. There is a real danger that a closed/proprietary file format, like WMA Lossless, Apple lossless or Sony Atrac gets adopted as a standard due to being the only game in town.
I think Sonos could be very influential in this emerging market. If Sonos supported, for instance, FLAC in hires formats, I think their influence is now big enough to drive adoption by music outlets and studios.
Userlevel 1
Cambridge Audio NP30 now on sale in UK at a well know retailer.
Also Cyrus streamer products now hitting the shelves....
Also Cyrus streamer products now hitting the shelves....
Although I think that Sonos will miss a huge opportunity if they do not do hi-rez, that is their right as a company. The one thing that really bothers me though, is why can't Sonos just let us know if they will be doing this or not doing this in the future? It is disrespectful to their customers not to just let us know when so many are asking. Yes or no? Give us the information we need to decide to stick with Sonos or not.
It's a shame that this product, which does almost everything perfectly, will not play the hi-rez files that are now becoming widely available. I should not have to downconvert files in order for them to play.
If some company comes out with a product that is basically a Sonos with hi-rez, at a reasonable price, they will become the industry leader. Please let that company be Sonos. If not, please, Sonos, have the courtesy to just tell us.
It's a shame that this product, which does almost everything perfectly, will not play the hi-rez files that are now becoming widely available. I should not have to downconvert files in order for them to play.
If some company comes out with a product that is basically a Sonos with hi-rez, at a reasonable price, they will become the industry leader. Please let that company be Sonos. If not, please, Sonos, have the courtesy to just tell us.
livengood1,
Even though there is a VERY vocal market segment that is demanding 24/96 support, without some good market research, we don't know if this segment is large enough to justify developing such a unit. One can argue that 24/96 is a pre purchase check box, but for how many? Again, do the numbers justify the development costs?
I think that it is a no win proposition for SONOS to enter the discussion. You can imagine the 24/96 segment's reaction if SONOS said "no". If SONOS said "yes" the next flames would be about "when" and then "too late!!". A decent answer would be: "When market conditions justify the development costs", but this would not satisfy the 24/96 segment.
On a technical note, sending 24/96 implies more data on the network. Systems that are currently on the edge due to wireless range and interference issues, will probably get into trouble. Existing customers will be quite steamed if this 24/96 upgrade "broke" their system. It is easy to imagine the cry: "My system worked perfectly before this 24/96 upgrade, now it does not work reliably, I can't play any 24/96 files." 24/96 revenue will have to be able to cover increased support costs too.
Even though there is a VERY vocal market segment that is demanding 24/96 support, without some good market research, we don't know if this segment is large enough to justify developing such a unit. One can argue that 24/96 is a pre purchase check box, but for how many? Again, do the numbers justify the development costs?
I think that it is a no win proposition for SONOS to enter the discussion. You can imagine the 24/96 segment's reaction if SONOS said "no". If SONOS said "yes" the next flames would be about "when" and then "too late!!". A decent answer would be: "When market conditions justify the development costs", but this would not satisfy the 24/96 segment.
On a technical note, sending 24/96 implies more data on the network. Systems that are currently on the edge due to wireless range and interference issues, will probably get into trouble. Existing customers will be quite steamed if this 24/96 upgrade "broke" their system. It is easy to imagine the cry: "My system worked perfectly before this 24/96 upgrade, now it does not work reliably, I can't play any 24/96 files." 24/96 revenue will have to be able to cover increased support costs too.
Userlevel 2
Also Cyrus streamer products now hitting the shelves....
I would not bother. A fool and his money can easily be parted.
http://recivarefuge.net/forum/index.php?topic=237.0
Userlevel 2
i have tried a bunch of other solutions since i sold my sonos (because of no hi rez support). i am currently fighting trying to get squeezebox software to play nice with my readynas (which there are a lot of other people in this boat). so out of hope i returned here to see if something new might finally be in the works. but alas, this thread just continues to be frustrating as it was a year ago when i last checked. seems to still be the same camps. the "marketing shows no one is interested in this" argument (yes, i agree - obviously almost EVERY OTHER music player has it wrong and isn't doing "marketing". or APPLE, god knows what fools they are at selling music). and the "why do i need this" camp, or as i like to call it, the why would i want my music player to play music better guys. i am sincerely hoping that sonos has something in the pipeline, because i would sure love to buy one. maybe i'm a lone crazed audiofool, but i would sure love to buy one. hey you could even sell it for a few thousand and get all the stereophile guys to buy one too!
Userlevel 2
Ratso, I'm in your boat, having fought with the Squeezecenter on my ReadyNAS for a week before giving up and getting a refund on my Squeezebox Touch. The Cambridge unit above looks good but does not support ALAC, which is most of my music. So I'm using an outboard DAC with my ZP90.
I'm pretty happy, but I look forward to a higher-res device and I don't want to spend the money on modding the ZP90; that seems like a waste. But I don't expect Sonos to track my preferences exactly; that's just not how businesses operate.
I think I'll wait for the next cool device that I can control and set up easily which offers higher res support and works with ALAC. OR I may invest in a new NAS and see if I can throw my two ReadyNAS hard drives into it or buy new ones, and see if Squeezecenter can run on it, then get another Touch.
The cool thing about Squeezecenter is it's free, so I can experiment with it before buying another Squeezebox product.
I'm pretty happy, but I look forward to a higher-res device and I don't want to spend the money on modding the ZP90; that seems like a waste. But I don't expect Sonos to track my preferences exactly; that's just not how businesses operate.
I think I'll wait for the next cool device that I can control and set up easily which offers higher res support and works with ALAC. OR I may invest in a new NAS and see if I can throw my two ReadyNAS hard drives into it or buy new ones, and see if Squeezecenter can run on it, then get another Touch.
The cool thing about Squeezecenter is it's free, so I can experiment with it before buying another Squeezebox product.
That's unfortunate. The ReadyNAS series seems to be popular in Sonos-land.
...obviously almost EVERY OTHER music player has it wrong ...
I'd rather have it work every time all the time, but that might just be me.
Good luck with your Squeezebox.
Userlevel 2
AFAIK don't you need like a computer or at least a x86 based nas type device if you are going to run the squeeze centre? One of the major weaknesses IMO.
The Cambridge unit above looks good but does not support ALAC, which is most of my music. So I'm using an outboard DAC with my ZP90.
Check out the thread linked by the professor, based on my cursory read the cambridge unit looks very buggy.
Userlevel 2
I don't know the exact requirements for it. My NAS ran the version made for NASs (not the PC version), but with a ton of problems. I was amazed at the technical issues and expertise on the forums there; everyone seemed to be an MIS geek. All the different hacks, mods, versions, nightly Beta updates ... just playing a damn song was like launching the Space Shuttle.:rolleyes:
Check out the thread linked by the professor, based on my cursory read the cambridge unit looks very buggy.
Ouch. Missed that; I'll check it out. Thanks.
Exactly why I find all threats to toss Sonos for Squeeze to be laughable. Despite not having hires support, I challenge anyone to find a system easier to setup and maintain than Sonos.
Userlevel 2
I'd rather have it work every time all the time, but that might just be me.
Good luck with your Squeezebox.
thanx but i am back on board! dumped my touch and ordered a zp90. it may not be perfect, but at least i know it works! (at least until i find the perfect streamer, which i am still hoping will be the zp100).
Userlevel 2
Man, it sounds like you're doing exactly what I did. Too funny.
Userlevel 1
The ZP100 is the older version of the ZP120.
Userlevel 2
Yeah, but I think it's clear he meant the next iteration of the ZP90. 🙂
Userlevel 2
woops okay zp130 then 😛
Userlevel 1
+++++++++++++++++ for At least 96/24 support
Userlevel 2
Well it happened to the movie sound.
Dolby True HD and DTS-master audios are a major improvements in that area.
Compareing with the old Dolby-digital I really can here and feel the difference.
Thank you Hollywood
Why not with Sonos ?
Dolby True HD and DTS-master audios are a major improvements in that area.
Compareing with the old Dolby-digital I really can here and feel the difference.
Thank you Hollywood
Why not with Sonos ?
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