The Arc unit cannot be objectively tested as being no different than the other model found to be "better".  I don't care one whit about subjective opinions, except when they fly in the face of objective facts.  

I get the objective argument but for a lot of people listening to music is a subjective experience. I can not objectively  prove that my playbar sounds better than my previous basic sound bar but subjectively I’m pretty sure it does.

Different equipment does sound different. To some people it clearly doesn’t matter but some people it does. I’m a Sonos fan but there is just no way that it sounds as good as my Hi-Fi system.

There are just too many subjective reviews of the port that it is not convincing. It is  intended to link to a Hi-Fi but you google Hi-Fi streamer options they will all offer hi res. It doesn’t matter if the hi res doesn’t sound better but it does matter that you simply can’t play a recording on the port. Sonos is great but it is not the best sounding system in the world. S2 has been introduced for a reason. The Port isn’t convincing the Hi-Fi market it is intended for. Room for improvement which I’m sure Sonos is capable of. 

That’s why, if it concerns audio equipment, I always ignore the parts of the review where they review the sound. The used technology, the options available can be classified, the sound not. Look at all the nonsense descriptions the review sites come up with to talk about how it sounds. I only trust how the device sounds to my own ears. If it sounds good, it is good. No matter what any review site has to say.

I have both the Port and the Connect and I like them both.

There is no arguing that with the kind of gross differences in sound that different speakers deliver, a DBT is necessary to prove that these differences heard are not just subjective opinions. What remains subjective there, and validly so, is a preference for one over the other. So, there is no arguing with the first part quoted.

But with almost all of heard sound quality differences down to speaker quality, placement, room acoustics and recording quality, differences in sound delivered by intermediate products is so small, that conclusions can be easily affected by various well known biases; biases that a DBT seeks to eliminate. 

I can’t speak to the Port, but there has always been scepticism about the Connect too in HiFi markets, with not one DBT to back it up.

Agreed. It is a subjective personal experience. I have a connect to existing Aufiolab DAC and thought I would upgrade to port for S2 and because I want best experience when I upgrade to Sennheiser HD800S offer as not convinced by Momentums for focused listening. 
 

However realised Connect is Gen 2 and there does not appear to be any objective or subjective review that supports switching to Port through an external DAC.  I have found both the objective and subjective camps on here helpful in reaching that view which I appreciate. 

So I listened to the Port for the first time since upgrading to S2 last night, and dare I say, it sounded better with increased clarity.

I wasn't able to pay a lot of attention, but it certainly came as a surprise to me. 

Maybe S2 has indeed brought improvements with it.

I'll have proper sit down and listen and report back in a few days. 

Way to shoot the messenger.  Of course this is a Sonos forum so no deviation is allowed. Apparently it’s not possible for anything Sonos makes to be problematic. Meanwhile multiple reviews and reports from users say the exact same thing about the Port. One thing is for sure, it is grossly overpriced and they even raised the price already. 

I also replaced a Logitech Squeezebox product (the Squeezebox Duet), with the Port.  This was the old Duet - the box on the right side of the image is similar to the Port and is what connected to my system:

With the Port, there is absolutely zero difference in sound from my perspective.  Note that I am using the digital coax out from the Port to my a/v receiver, and in “fixed” volume mode (which I understand is bit perfect and doesn’t have the limiter that can kick in when using “variable” volume mode).  So maybe that’s the difference -- are you using the digital out with “fixed” volume control? 

Even if the sound quality had not been exactly the same (but it is to my ears), I would be super happy just because I now have integration with my entire Sonos eco-system.  Grouping with my Sonos Ones (I have Sonos Ones in 3 rooms) works perfectly with the Port powering my 5.1 family room system (no delay); and the Sonos app is light years less clunky than the 10 year old Squeezebox interface, and allows much easier access to music from various sources.    So I’m happy to say goodbye to the old school Squeezebox Duet and and welcome the Port as its more capable replacement and easier to use replacement.

Hi

First post here, so go easy etc.

Anyway, I bought a Port to replace my increasingly unsupported (and fast approaching obsolescent) Squeezebox Touch.

I have it plugged into my Cambridge Audio Amp / Mordaunt Short speakers, I stream files (FLAC, ACC, MP3) from a home server, plus Deezer (standard, not premium), and I have to say that the Port sounds disappointing by comparison to the Squeezebox. 

The sound is indeed flat and lacking detail, and I find myself turning up the volume in a vain attempt to gain more detail - but really, I’m just upsetting my neighbours.

The Port was my first Sonos product so I can’t comment on the Connect. But compared to the Squeezebox, I would say that the review is something I can identify my own experience to.

I hope that S2 brings some improvements, but I don’t hold my breath.

Anyhoo - thought I’d share my thoughts.

 

I also replaced a Logitech Squeezebox product (the Squeezebox Duet), with the Port.  This was the old Duet - the box on the right side of the image is similar to the Port and is what connected to my system:

With the Port, there is absolutely zero difference in sound from my perspective.  Note that I am using the digital coax out from the Port to my a/v receiver, and in “fixed” volume mode (which I understand is bit perfect and doesn’t have the limiter that can kick in when using “variable” volume mode).  So maybe that’s the difference -- are you using the digital out with “fixed” volume control? 

Even if the sound quality had not been exactly the same (but it is to my ears), I would be super happy just because I now have integration with my entire Sonos eco-system.  Grouping with my Sonos Ones (I have Sonos Ones in 3 rooms) works perfectly with the Port powering my 5.1 family room system (no delay); and the Sonos app is light years less clunky than the 10 year old Squeezebox interface, and allows much easier access to music from various sources.    So I’m happy to say goodbye to the old school Squeezebox Duet and and welcome the Port as its more capable replacement and easier to use replacement.

I'm using the audio leads which came with the port. 

Hi

First post here, so go easy etc.

Anyway, I bought a Port to replace my increasingly unsupported (and fast approaching obsolescent) Squeezebox Touch.

I have it plugged into my Cambridge Audio Amp / Mordaunt Short speakers, I stream files (FLAC, ACC, MP3) from a home server, plus Deezer (standard, not premium), and I have to say that the Port sounds disappointing by comparison to the Squeezebox. 

The sound is indeed flat and lacking detail, and I find myself turning up the volume in a vain attempt to gain more detail - but really, I’m just upsetting my neighbours.

The Port was my first Sonos product so I can’t comment on the Connect. But compared to the Squeezebox, I would say that the review is something I can identify my own experience to.

I hope that S2 brings some improvements, but I don’t hold my breath.

Anyhoo - thought I’d share my thoughts.

 

I also replaced a Logitech Squeezebox product (the Squeezebox Duet), with the Port.  This was the old Duet - the box on the right side of the image is similar to the Port and is what connected to my system:

With the Port, there is absolutely zero difference in sound from my perspective.  Note that I am using the digital coax out from the Port to my a/v receiver, and in “fixed” volume mode (which I understand is bit perfect and doesn’t have the limiter that can kick in when using “variable” volume mode).  So maybe that’s the difference -- are you using the digital out with “fixed” volume control? 

Even if the sound quality had not been exactly the same (but it is to my ears), I would be super happy just because I now have integration with my entire Sonos eco-system.  Grouping with my Sonos Ones (I have Sonos Ones in 3 rooms) works perfectly with the Port powering my 5.1 family room system (no delay); and the Sonos app is light years less clunky than the 10 year old Squeezebox interface, and allows much easier access to music from various sources.    So I’m happy to say goodbye to the old school Squeezebox Duet and and welcome the Port as its more capable replacement and easier to use replacement.

I'm using the audio leads which came with the port. 

I believe the limiter is not known to apply to the analog outs.  So you should be fine there. 

I strongly suspect that in the what Hi-Fi Review they played it using the variable line output. They thought it sounded awful even through a quality DAC on serious Hi-Fi because it does. Sonos admits it is distorting the sound. Switching to fixed output removes the distortion. The port is meant for connecting to hi fi but really it isn’t ideal. It is a pain keep stitching from variable to stitched output so really on the port they should fix the variable output so it doesn’t distort the sound because it it meant to play on Hi-Fi.
 

I also appreciate they may have issue with playing hires on older equipment. I’m not for a moment suggesting that hires is better per se but better quality master recordings do sound better on good quality Hi-Fi. pretty much all the alternative products offer this.

 The port is meant to connect to Hi-Fi but it isn’t actually designed with Hi-Fi users in mind. Fix the variable output and the offer hires even if it is just for the port. Fully appreciate that hi quality recordings aren’t going to sound better on other Sonos products. In fact Sonos sounds better that my Hi-Fi with poor quality pop recordings because high quality transparent Hi-Fi you can hear just how poor quality the recordings are and that they are designed to Heard- on low fidelity equipment. 
 

The connect and port make sense if you have a Sonos system but as a stand-alone piece of equipment that is meant to be for Hi-Fi it isn’t competitive. It gets poor reviews for a reason.  I’m sure Sonos are very  capable of fixing this because currently it is the weak link in their product range 

I replaced a Chromecast audio with a port a few weeks ago and to my ears the port does

not sound as good. Both using variable outputs, nice sounding PSB speakers in my kitchen (more midfi

thanHiFi though I suppose)

ButI didn't DBT or anything so won't make any other comments about the sound in case some fans get upset

Sonos asked me to do a review for their site and wouldn't publish it maybe cause i gave

only3 stars lol.

I am wary of criticising Sonos product on a Sonos especially as there are some who are evangelical in their beliefs but clearlythere is a problem with the product.
 

It is in their own interest to fix the product rather than fix the reviews.

I will happily add to my Sonos collection when they fix the product as generally I like Sonos and would rather stay than move away. I have absolutely no doubt they are capable of producing a competitive product if they are willing to accept the criticism. 

Why?

Pushing back against subjective opinions formed on the basis of tests that do not eliminate the influence of universal psychological biases, and being evangelical are not the same, although often such pushbacks are conveniently confused with being evangelical.

I have a different objection to both Port and Connect and that has nothing to do with sound quality - and it is that for use as a source for a HiFi system with no need for other Sonos features like syncing for multi room audio, it is a ridiculously expensive solution. Chromecast Audio demonstrated that by doing all that Connect does as a HiFi source, for 10% of the price, more than five years ago.

The trouble with Chromecast was its inability to work without a phone in ones hand for any changes to the status quo. 

Once that was solved by devices like Echo Dots for about the same price as the CCA, a standalone Connect made no sense given its price point. Wire a Dot to the input jacks of a HiFi set up and streaming services will sound as good as they do from any other source including Connect/Port. Add a cheap Raspberry PI to work as a media server for ripped CDs, and the also cheap Echo Show 5 front end will play these with album art display as icing on the cake. As will the Dot if a screen is not a requirement.

I am waiting for someone to run a well constructed DBT where the single variable is the source, changing from a Dot to a supposedly “HiFi” source that costs at least ten times as much. And, in such a DBT, for that someone to reliable pick which source is playing.

Needless to say, there will never be such a DBT, is my firm belief, because of what it will establish. 

Digressing a little, there is a very good exposition of the rigour of science based DBT in the second season of the TV series Fargo, where the wife of the main character has cancer and in desperation, signs up to be part of a clinical trial for a new experimental drug as a last chance. Her husband and she then ask the doctor after all aspects of the trial are explained - But how do we know if she isn't the one getting the placebo pills - and the doctor tell them that they can’t know, and neither will he. How can we ensure she gets the real drug, they ask again - You can’t, is the short answer. Never mind that this may be a life and death issue for her.

Compare this rigour to how subjective opinions are casually tossed off and then relied on to be universally applicable in the world of audio, especially in the HiFi niche of it.

Listening to Music is subjective. People read subjective Hi-Fi reviews. So in the real world subjective views matter.

No one objects to a subjective view that Sonos has a great range of products. Looks good. Sounds good and has grat. ease of set up and use but that is just a subjective opinion. 
 

However this isn’t subjective. Sonos freely admit that they process the variable output sound which is contrary to what you are looking for from a Hi-Fi component. It is also a fact that the Port can’t play music formats the majority of Hi-Fi streamers competitors can play. It is is hardly surprises that it isn’t getting great industry and consumer reviews   Ignoring criticism and technology changes isn’t  a great business Model.   For sure many technology changes disappear but some replace existing technology.

Sonos was born in the a time of lower bandwidths. That has and  is changing. I suspect that Sonos has introduced S2 for a reason.

Like it or not the  Port just isn’t Sonos most compelling product if you are only looking to add a streamer to a Hi-Fi. 

I agree; it is wildly overpriced if that is all one is looking for. By the way, for the use case quoted, it is the only Sonos product, there isn't any other that is more compelling.

I also agree that listening to music is a subjective experience because it is part of reality, which itself is a subjective experience.

But the problem is that the word HiFi itself is subjective and there is no objective definition of that word - and therefore, anything goes and HiFi usually = High end = expensive.

Which is why everyone that has invested - and in many cases been conned to invest - in a five digit plus HiFi system finds it very difficult to accept something like a Chromecast Audio or an Echo Dot as a credible part of their system as source for music via their Hi End system - back in my now outgrown audiophile days before Sonos, I had similar problems accepting iPods as source to my expensive HiFi set ups.  It just does not compute in the HiFi worldview and adherents will not risk a DBT even if they knew how to set up a scientific one, for fear of being proved wrong. Because that may mean that the investment in the main system will start looking like a bad financial decision.

The Connect which made sense back in 2005, has for some time now been a challenge for Sonos - from a pricing point of view. It is wildly overpriced for what it does, but it needs to priced at at least twice of what it is to be taken seriously by “HiFi” subscribers, who need Hi End to be Hi Priced for admission to the club.

Classic marketing MBA material, this.

There is also a problem that regardless of price, Port will not be taken seriously, because Sonos as a brand isn't, by the HiFi crowd. For purely psychological reasons.

So perhaps Sonos has struck the right balance for the Port pricing which for psychological reasons will never sell in large numbers.

I actually just want a Sonos Steamer without DAC that doesn’t distort the sound, plays all main formats and has input and output options I don’t see how a digital source with the same data can make a difference and I don’t see why this should or needs to be expensive Unfortunately the Port isn’t it and there are plenty of other products which offer uncoloured sound and more functionality  if you are just looking for a Hi-Fi streamer the Port just doesn’t make sense at any price point  

 The problem with technology companies is that technology changes  So what was an opportunity for Sonos is now a problem  How do they keep existing and new customers happy in times of increasing bandwidths and different formats some of which will disappear and some of which will take hold  ive no doubt starting now Sonos would offer hi res if only from a marketing viewpoint  There is no way I’m getting into the well worn hi res argument because I don’t believe I could hear the difference  I suspect some musicians and engineers can but not me but I can hear master differences if Sonos allows me to play the format which it doesn’t  

There are plenty of people into HI-FI who disappear down the rabbit hole but there is also those looking for value and real differences. I just asked my dealer if it was worth changing my DAC and the answer was no. The headphones and amp are on a different level though so you just have to be careful where you spend your money. 

I have no idea what planet you are on or why you think I would read your Playbar review...consider decaf.  Such a sensitive little thing.

You get your knickers in a bunch about a two month old post, and I’m the sensitive one?  

Meanwhile in the real world What HiFi has given many Sonos items top reviews but not the Port.  

So what?  I wouldn’t trust What HiFi to give an accurate, objective review of a light switch.  Also, what does What HiFi have to do with a scientifically valid analysis?  They are a subjective review publication, and an audiophile one at that.  By their very nature, they eschew objective, scientifically valid testing in favor of flowery prose and unestablished claims.