Dealing with HDMI ARC issues on Amp and input choices

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Airgetlam

To tag, use an @ sign in front of the name, like this:

@Corry P 

There, tagged him for you. 
 

It’s been a request since the Beam was released, there has been no indication that Sonos is interested in adding any other option than ARC to any of the three devices that now have an HDMI port. I’m sure Corry P will pass on the request to the development team, but I’d also suggest that you don’t hold your breath. 

Bruce
T
Badge +2

To tag, use an @ sign in front of the name, like this:

@Corry P

There, tagged him for you. 
 

It’s been a request since the Beam was released, there has been no indication that Sonos is interested in adding any other option than ARC to any of the three devices that now have an HDMI port. I’m sure Corry P will pass on the request to the development team, but I’d also suggest that you don’t hold your breath. 

I did the “@” symbol then his name - what should I have done to make sure it tagged him?

This is the kind of thing that is seriously frustrating about Sonos: The systems cost a LOT of money and the company’s attitude is often, “So what? Why make things work better for customers.” Seriously, I have thought about this issue at times and this situation has me seriously thinking whether I want to use Sonos for my future plans.

Basically Sonos works with specific situations and it appears they have no interest in working with different ones. I’ve spent thousands on my home theater system in our guest house and it’s a treat to use it, but the PlayBar loses sync with the system and can’t use HDMI - only ethernet, wifi, or optical for input. Apparently I can get an ARC that will use HDMI - but this tells me it’ll require ARC and if any of my components don’t use it, I’m screwed - and Sonos doesn’t care. Their response seems to be, “DILLIGAF?” and that’s a really rude and pissant way to treat one’s customers.

That has me, already, looking into replacing that 5.1 system, even though it’s only about 18 months old, with a non-Sonos system from a company that is more about “We can do that,” Than “DILLIGAF?”

(For those who haven’t caught it yet, DILLIGAF is short for “Do I Look Like I Give A F---” and, honestly, I’ve felt that describes Sonos’ attitude for a good while now.)

Corry P
Userlevel 7
Badge +18

Hi @TangoMe 

This would not be practical - the Amp would have no way of forwarding the audio to the display device without another HDMI socket. Combine this with us being unable to support the use of HDMI splitters and you see the problem. If the Amp worked this way, you’d be limited in HDMI devices to the number of sockets Amp has, rather than by how many socket’s your TV has.

The audio carried by an HDMI cable destined for a TV is not on the same physical wires inside the cable as when ARC is in play, which is why the Amp is unable to play directly from an source device. When a HDMI Audio system is designed, a choice is made between having HDMI passthrough wiring (limiting the number of devices that can connect), or to utilise ARC. ARC is the more modern way of doing it, but does depend on the display device providing ARC.

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
buzz

HDMI-ARC sockets on AVR’s have bi-directional audio capability. The units that I’ve worked with handle the ARC return audio similar to a Sonos Line-In.

Corry P
Userlevel 7
Badge +18

Yes, but they have multiple HDMI sockets and are intended to be source switchers.

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
buzz

This is not much different from the source switch on a TV, but the TV’s display is larger than the AVR display and the AVR has more and better amplifiers.

If the bars wanted to, they could use the HDMI embedded audio or the HDMI-ARC audio.

T
Badge +2

Hi @TangoMe 

This would not be practical - the Amp would have no way of forwarding the audio to the display device without another HDMI socket. Combine this with us being unable to support the use of HDMI splitters and you see the problem. If the Amp worked this way, you’d be limited in HDMI devices to the number of sockets Amp has, rather than by how many socket’s your TV has.

The audio carried by an HDMI cable destined for a TV is not on the same physical wires inside the cable as when ARC is in play, which is why the Amp is unable to play directly from an source device. When a HDMI Audio system is designed, a choice is made between having HDMI passthrough wiring (limiting the number of devices that can connect), or to utilise ARC. ARC is the more modern way of doing it, but does depend on the display device providing ARC.

I have, on one TV, a Switch (and will be adding another game device soon), an AppleTV, a BD player, and a Mac Mini. While I haven’t browsed a lot of TVs except the projection units that fit my needs, I found that it’s hard to even find a HDMI switch that handles more than this. When I add another device, I’m maxed out for the switch. As for the TV, a recent LCD one I bought for use in my study had TWO HDMI ports. And other ones I looked at were similar. I don’t remember if I found any with three or more ports, but I know three would have been the max.

I seriously doubt I’m the only one out there who wants good sound from a product like Sonos and is using more devices than there are HDMI ports on a TV.

True, you don’t have a way to forward the data to the TV, but not everyone needs that - but they do need a way to get the sound to the AMP. (And, by the way, I double checked the Autoplay setting and it’s STILL resetting to HDMI in instead of Line-In, and not always after a power flicker.) Again, this feels like Sonos is saying, “This is the only way WE use our products or want them used, so we’re not going to allow others to use it in a different way that might be useful to them. Works for us. That’s good enough.”

I’m not saying this to be insulting, but when I had an audio receiver in my entertainment center, it was much easier to deal with than the AMP. I wish I had not sold it off when I got my AMP.

Is it possible I need some troubleshooting on the AMP to find out why, even with changing the Autoplay setting, it still keeps going back to HDMI? It’s just absurd that, in this year, with technology at the level it is, and that almost any other device and restart or maintain its states and settings, that something as expensive as a Sonos AMP can’t.

106rallye
Userlevel 7
Badge +17

Though most TV’s I know have four HDMI-inputs, I recognize your problem. This will get worse when only a few of them are equipped with eARC for example, that is needed for Atmos and some game consoles. Sonos made a choice, to use the TV as an HDMI hub, instead of letting the soundbar work as such as other manufacturers do. For most users, especially Sonos users this is less complex. For users with more needs this creates a problem.

When using a switch you do not have to stop using other HDMI’s though.

T
Badge +2

Though most TV’s I know have four HDMI-inputs, I recognize your problem. This will get worse when only a few of them are equipped with eARC for example, that is needed for Atmos and some game consoles. Sonos made a choice, to use the TV as an HDMI hub, instead of letting the soundbar work as such as other manufacturers do. For most users, especially Sonos users this is less complex. For users with more needs this creates a problem.

When using a switch you do not have to stop using other HDMI’s though.

That’s about what I mean: Sonos is thinking, “Do this our way or forget it.” I seriously doubt it would take more hardware to make it work both ways, just software. But why bother? Just tell people to do it “our” way.

The problem with using the other HDMIs is that it can be tough with a projector. The entertainment center is often in front of the room and the projector in the back. In our barn, I have two HDMI cables, but the house is a few years older and I was lucky to get them to put one in. (I usually try for extras on things like that, but it doesn’t always work.) But also, with both projectors I have, and one is a $5,000 model, so it’s not cheap, and it’s from 2019, so it’s not ancient there are only two HDMI ports.

I did try to use the 2nd HDMI port on the barn projector, but, in that case, using both HDMI cables means some devices go through the switcher that provides HDMI and optical audio out and one doesn’t. It’s a lot easier for me, with the projectors, to use a switcher for HDMI.

106rallye
Userlevel 7
Badge +17

I'd put it more mildly: Sonos made choices that (they think) work best for their audience ("has money, but no technical knowledge and is not about to get that"). So they've tried to make things as simple as possible. When it is not simple anymore their audience is lost, for instance when something's awry on the wifi front. If this simplicity does not work for you, you're not part of the Sonos audience.

The Arc is meant to work with a TV and only a few connected devices. You want to connect more devices and work with a projector. I very much understand you want Sonos too, but maybe you want to much and so need to look elsewhere.

T
Badge +2

I'd put it more mildly: Sonos made choices that (they think) work best for their audience ("has money, but no technical knowledge and is not about to get that"). So they've tried to make things as simple as possible. When it is not simple anymore their audience is lost, for instance when something's awry on the wifi front. If this simplicity does not work for you, you're not part of the Sonos audience.

The Arc is meant to work with a TV and only a few connected devices. You want to connect more devices and work with a projector. I very much understand you want Sonos too, but maybe you want to much and so need to look elsewhere.

I didn’t see this earlier, but since I just posted that the Line In autoplay feature still refuses to work properly, I’m looking again.

I think you’ve misunderstood a lot of the issue. “As simple as possible” means, “Works ONLY for these situations.” There are ways the issues I’m talking about can be addressed and things kept simple. I suspect the ARC issue could be handled with software. If so, a setting could be created for it and it could be buried deep in settings so people don’t change it by accident. Or, as is the case every time I have to select “Line In” for my AMP, there could be a warning about what turning off ARC will do.

I get that it’s meant for people who aren’t digging into things, but this setup also rules out most setups with projection TVs. I don’t know what the thought process was that ignored that issue. Maybe the Sonos staff don’t have projection TVs and this issue is outside of their experience, so they haven’t thought about it. Many projection TVs don’t have sound at all. You’re talking about "has money?" I don't know if I qualify for that, but when we set up our barn system, I did spend because I’ve wanted a home theater setup since the days when you had to use 16mm projectors to do that. The projector I use is about $5,000 and does not do sound at all.

It doesn’t have Android or any other OS on it and can’t do streaming. It’s intended ONLY as a video devices. This is not atypical of projectors. Some have sound, but rather cheap, because most people with projectors are using a sound system of some type already. In the case of LCD TVs, for example, the TV may be the hub, but with a projector, the hub is with the devices. In fact, there may not be a single device as a hub. In my case, and, apparently, in many cases, multiple devices are fed into an HDMI switcher.

In that case, to work with Sonos, either the switcher needs to provide ARC (and some good ones don’t, or at least didn’t in 2019, last I was shopping for them), or ALL the devices need to have ARC - and the latter isn't going to happen.

So, @Corry P, when you and others discuss my other thread as a feature request, please make sure they understand this issue: A lot of projection systems are quite expensive and do NOT have ARC. It’s short sighted of Sonos to make people spend another $200 on a device to provide ARC after they’ve already spent thousands on the rest of their system.

And with my AMP, after shelling out for that much for something like that, for me to have to continually go in and reset it to Line In or to have to pay another $200 for a device to add ARC is, again, short sighted. It makes using AMP or any other device that requires ARC a pain (or useless) with a good projection system.

Before this issue showed up, I was planning on replacing my PLAYBAR with an ARC. At that point I didn’t realize ARC was a protocol (again, see what I’ve said about projection TVs), but I quickly decided not to and have been researching what I can replace that Sonos 5.1 system with because, clearly, if Sonos devices require ARC, they’re not equipped to handle home theater with a projection system.

melvimbe

I didn’t see this earlier, but since I just posted that the Line In autoplay feature still refuses to work properly, I’m looking again.

 

 

I’m surprised the Line In autoplay feature isn’t working for you, but I don’t use line in personally, so I can’t really comment on that.  However, the line in isn’t designed for use with a TV or projector anyway.  I didn’t see this suggested yet, but you can use the optical adapter to convert an optical signal to HDMI-ARC for use with the Amp.  If your TV can out optical, you’re done.  And there are plenty of devices out there that can extract optical from HDMI, many that include HDMI splitter functionality if your TV doesn’t do optical output.  I would have gone route over trying to use the line in, and I use autoplay for that all the time.  

 

I think you’ve misunderstood a lot of the issue. “As simple as possible” means, “Works ONLY for these situations.” There are ways the issues I’m talking about can be addressed and things kept simple. I suspect the ARC issue could be handled with software. If so, a setting could be created for it and it could be buried deep in settings so people don’t change it by accident. Or, as is the case every time I have to select “Line In” for my AMP, there could be a warning about what turning off ARC will do.

 

 

I don’t think the HDMI port could be that easily modified by software.  You may not be aware of this since you aren’t using an ARC/eARC capable TV, but the HDMI cable between the Amp (or Beam or Arc) connects to the HDMI IN marked ARC on the back of the TV.  It’s an INPUT on the TV.  That means the HDMI port on the Amp is an OUTPUT.  Indeed, if you set the TV to the input connected to the Amp, you would see a Sonos screensaver image.  The ARC audio, actually flows backwards.

So, what your saying is that the HDMI port on the back of the Amp could be converted form an OUTPUT to an INPUT through a software change and flip fo a switch in configuration.  Maybe, I don’t know enough about the tech, but it seems like a bit of a tall order.

 

I get that it’s meant for people who aren’t digging into things, but this setup also rules out most setups with projection TVs. I don’t know what the thought process was that ignored that issue. Maybe the Sonos staff don’t have projection TVs and this issue is outside of their experience, so they haven’t thought about it. Many projection TVs don’t have sound at all. You’re talking about "has money?" I don't know if I qualify for that, but when we set up our barn system, I did spend because I’ve wanted a home theater setup since the days when you had to use 16mm projectors to do that. The projector I use is about $5,000 and does not do sound at all.

 

 

I would guess they had marketing data that showed that the vast majority of customers had optical or ARC capable TVs, or would rather soon.  I think they saw that the majority of projector owners tended to have wired dedicated home theatre setups. I also think a lot of customers would have not have been ok with a single HDMI input, no passthrough to the TV.  I think they didn’t want to have to create a new gen of a device just because video standards changed.  I am guessing, but I have little doubt that there are lots of impacts to this that we generally don’t think about.

 

It doesn’t have Android or any other OS on it and can’t do streaming. It’s intended ONLY as a video devices. This is not atypical of projectors. Some have sound, but rather cheap, because most people with projectors are using a sound system of some type already. In the case of LCD TVs, for example, the TV may be the hub, but with a projector, the hub is with the devices. In fact, there may not be a single device as a hub. In my case, and, apparently, in many cases, multiple devices are fed into an HDMI switcher.

In that case, to work with Sonos, either the switcher needs to provide ARC (and some good ones don’t, or at least didn’t in 2019, last I was shopping for them), or ALL the devices need to have ARC - and the latter isn't going to happen.

 

Pretty much no HDMI switcher provides ARC.  Those that are labeled with ARC that you’re seeing are designed to take an ARC signal from your TV, not generate an ARC signal like a TV does.  The big exception to this is the HD Fury Arcana, which a lot of people on here have.  Mostly so that we don’t rely on TVs to do any audio processing, or if the TV doesn’t have eARC.  It doesn’t work with Arc though, as the optical/ARC solution works fine for most who need ARC.

There are some other products coming out that include a built in switcher, but they aren’t really available yet.

 

So, @Corry P, when you and others discuss my other thread as a feature request, please make sure they understand this issue: A lot of projection systems are quite expensive and do NOT have ARC. It’s short sighted of Sonos to make people spend another $200 on a device to provide ARC after they’ve already spent thousands on the rest of their system.

 

 

So you know about Arcana already?

 


And with my AMP, after shelling out for that much for something like that, for me to have to continually go in and reset it to Line In or to have to pay another $200 for a device to add ARC is, again, short sighted. It makes using AMP or any other device that requires ARC a pain (or useless) with a good projection system.

Before this issue showed up, I was planning on replacing my PLAYBAR with an ARC. At that point I didn’t realize ARC was a protocol (again, see what I’ve said about projection TVs), but I quickly decided not to and have been researching what I can replace that Sonos 5.1 system with because, clearly, if Sonos devices require ARC, they’re not equipped to handle home theater with a projection system.

 

For the amp, getting an HDMI/optical extractor + the Sonos dongle should cost way below $200.  If you want higher audio codecs through the Beam or Arc, you would need the $200 Arcana, yes.  From what I’ve seen more soundbars are coming out as ARC/eARC only, that seems to be the way things are going  

 

I get that this is not great for projectors, but I will say that I like the idea of having a  setup with sources connected to switching/converting device which then connects directly to TV/projector and soundbar/audio system, sending the best quality signal the devices can handle to each.  Your video doesn’t pass through your audio equipment, and your audio doesn’t pass through your video equipment.  When you want to upgrade your audio or video, you don’t have to replace your whole system because passthrough limitations.

Danny
T
Badge +2

I didn’t see this earlier, but since I just posted that the Line In autoplay feature still refuses to work properly, I’m looking again.

 

 

I’m surprised the Line In autoplay feature isn’t working for you, but I don’t use line in personally, so I can’t really comment on that.  However, the line in isn’t designed for use with a TV or projector anyway.  I didn’t see this suggested yet, but you can use the optical adapter to convert an optical signal to HDMI-ARC for use with the Amp.  If your TV can out optical, you’re done.  And there are plenty of devices out there that can extract optical from HDMI, many that include HDMI splitter functionality if your TV doesn’t do optical output.  I would have gone route over trying to use the line in, and I use autoplay for that all the time.  

 

There’s no optical input on the AMP. There is on the Playbar (only that and RJ45s), and on the Playbar, it has sync issues.

I think you’ve misunderstood a lot of the issue. “As simple as possible” means, “Works ONLY for these situations.” There are ways the issues I’m talking about can be addressed and things kept simple. I suspect the ARC issue could be handled with software. If so, a setting could be created for it and it could be buried deep in settings so people don’t change it by accident. Or, as is the case every time I have to select “Line In” for my AMP, there could be a warning about what turning off ARC will do.

 

 

I don’t think the HDMI port could be that easily modified by software.  You may not be aware of this since you aren’t using an ARC/eARC capable TV, but the HDMI cable between the Amp (or Beam or Arc) connects to the HDMI IN marked ARC on the back of the TV.  It’s an INPUT on the TV.  That means the HDMI port on the Amp is an OUTPUT.  Indeed, if you set the TV to the input connected to the Amp, you would see a Sonos screensaver image.  The ARC audio, actually flows backwards.

So, what your saying is that the HDMI port on the back of the Amp could be converted form an OUTPUT to an INPUT through a software change and flip fo a switch in configuration.  Maybe, I don’t know enough about the tech, but it seems like a bit of a tall order.

 

Okay, good point, and I have to wonder why nobody explained this to me earlier, and I see that as an issue, but this leads to other questions:

  1. Does that mean the design is that my TV has TWO inputs - one from Sonos and one from the video source?
  2. If the HDMI port is for output, then what am I supposed to use as INPUT for the AMP? (It has an HDMI port, two RJ45 ports, and post connectors for audio in and out.)
  3. Where is the audio input on the ARC, which has an HDMI port and an RJ45 connector?

 

 

I get that it’s meant for people who aren’t digging into things, but this setup also rules out most setups with projection TVs. I don’t know what the thought process was that ignored that issue. Maybe the Sonos staff don’t have projection TVs and this issue is outside of their experience, so they haven’t thought about it. Many projection TVs don’t have sound at all. You’re talking about "has money?" I don't know if I qualify for that, but when we set up our barn system, I did spend because I’ve wanted a home theater setup since the days when you had to use 16mm projectors to do that. The projector I use is about $5,000 and does not do sound at all.

 

 

I would guess they had marketing data that showed that the vast majority of customers had optical or ARC capable TVs, or would rather soon.  I think they saw that the majority of projector owners tended to have wired dedicated home theatre setups. I also think a lot of customers would have not have been ok with a single HDMI input, no passthrough to the TV.  I think they didn’t want to have to create a new gen of a device just because video standards changed.  I am guessing, but I have little doubt that there are lots of impacts to this that we generally don’t think about.

Stll, this keeps them out of the Home Theater market for those with projectors. It may not be the biggest market, but it’s being exclusionary when there’s no need to be.

It doesn’t have Android or any other OS on it and can’t do streaming. It’s intended ONLY as a video devices. This is not atypical of projectors. Some have sound, but rather cheap, because most people with projectors are using a sound system of some type already. In the case of LCD TVs, for example, the TV may be the hub, but with a projector, the hub is with the devices. In fact, there may not be a single device as a hub. In my case, and, apparently, in many cases, multiple devices are fed into an HDMI switcher.

In that case, to work with Sonos, either the switcher needs to provide ARC (and some good ones don’t, or at least didn’t in 2019, last I was shopping for them), or ALL the devices need to have ARC - and the latter isn't going to happen.

 

Pretty much no HDMI switcher provides ARC.  Those that are labeled with ARC that you’re seeing are designed to take an ARC signal from your TV, not generate an ARC signal like a TV does.  The big exception to this is the HD Fury Arcana, which a lot of people on here have.  Mostly so that we don’t rely on TVs to do any audio processing, or if the TV doesn’t have eARC.  It doesn’t work with Arc though, as the optical/ARC solution works fine for most who need ARC.

There are some other products coming out that include a built in switcher, but they aren’t really available yet.

I’ve looked at the Arcana, which looks like a useful device, but I resent the idea that, to get my AMP working decently with this, I had to pay $700 (which is a nice chunk, especially when it’s so limited in options and design setups and I still have to use my own speakers) and then still pay another $200 for it to work decently.

I’m more likely to use that for the theater setup in the barn, with the big screen and Godzilla (my name for the projector there - named after a laser setup for a show from the 70s) than for the house, but, still, it’s kind of sad Sonos doesn’t work with this - and if the HDMI is an output, again, where does the sound data from the TV go in?

 


And with my AMP, after shelling out for that much for something like that, for me to have to continually go in and reset it to Line In or to have to pay another $200 for a device to add ARC is, again, short sighted. It makes using AMP or any other device that requires ARC a pain (or useless) with a good projection system.

Before this issue showed up, I was planning on replacing my PLAYBAR with an ARC. At that point I didn’t realize ARC was a protocol (again, see what I’ve said about projection TVs), but I quickly decided not to and have been researching what I can replace that Sonos 5.1 system with because, clearly, if Sonos devices require ARC, they’re not equipped to handle home theater with a projection system.

 

For the amp, getting an HDMI/optical extractor + the Sonos dongle should cost way below $200.  If you want higher audio codecs through the Beam or Arc, you would need the $200 Arcana, yes.  From what I’ve seen more soundbars are coming out as ARC/eARC only, that seems to be the way things are going  

 

I’m confused at this point. As I mentioned, AMP has no optical connectors. Omitting the RJ45s (since you’re not going to get good sync if you send the audio over a LAN (and I don’t think any video players do that), there are only two possible inputs: Audio post (analog) and HDMI, which you say is an output.

The HDMI switch does have a TOSLink optical output, though. (I use that on the big system to connect to the Playbar - but, as I said, it’s got sync issues.)

So if I use this dongle, I’m not at all sure how I’d set it up with the AMP.

 

 

I get that this is not great for projectors, but I will say that I like the idea of having a  setup with sources connected to switching/converting device which then connects directly to TV/projector and soundbar/audio system, sending the best quality signal the devices can handle to each.  Your video doesn’t pass through your audio equipment, and your audio doesn’t pass through your video equipment.  When you want to upgrade your audio or video, you don’t have to replace your whole system because passthrough limitations.

Here’s what makes sense to me: Use HDMI cables and connectors for the whole shebang. I get that seems to be the way it’s going. But it seems clear to me (if not to Sonos) that there are going to be high end systems that do NOT use ARC/eARC. I get that there may be sync issues, but, again, that kind of thing can be in the settings - you have to turn on NON-ARC HDMI and when you do, you get a warning about sync issues and so on.

Thank you for a well thought out reply!

melvimbe

 

 

I’m surprised the Line In autoplay feature isn’t working for you, but I don’t use line in personally, so I can’t really comment on that.  However, the line in isn’t designed for use with a TV or projector anyway.  I didn’t see this suggested yet, but you can use the optical adapter to convert an optical signal to HDMI-ARC for use with the Amp.  If your TV can out optical, you’re done.  And there are plenty of devices out there that can extract optical from HDMI, many that include HDMI splitter functionality if your TV doesn’t do optical output.  I would have gone route over trying to use the line in, and I use autoplay for that all the time.  

 

There’s no optical input on the AMP. There is on the Playbar (only that and RJ45s), and on the Playbar, it has sync issues.

 

 

Read what I wrote again and click on the link to the optical adapter.  It will make sense then.

 

 

Okay, good point, and I have to wonder why nobody explained this to me earlier, and I see that as an issue, but this leads to other questions:

  1. Does that mean the design is that my TV has TWO inputs - one from Sonos and one from the video source?

 

Essentially yes...if you were looking at the back of your TV.  HDMI 1 (usually where ARC is) would connect to Sonos (and show a screensaver) , and HDMI 2 and the rest would be your video sources.  The TV knows to send all audio via the ARC channels to Sonos.

  1. If the HDMI port is for output, then what am I supposed to use as INPUT for the AMP? (It has an HDMI port, two RJ45 ports, and post connectors for audio in and out.)

 

Think of INPUT/OUTPUT as labels for the two ends of your HDMI cable rather than actual flow of data.  Your video data will always flow from INPUT to OUTPUT.  There is always audio data that also flows from INPUT to OUTPUT along with the video.  ARC (Audio Return Channel) flows in the opposite direction, from the OUTPUT side to the INPUT side. So for the HDMI cable between Sonos OUTPUT side) and TV (INPUT side)...Amp/Beam/Arc said video (screensaver) to the TV, and TV sends ARC channel audio back to the TV.  There is also bidirection CEC communication going on, but not vital to this discussion.

  1. Where is the audio input on the ARC, which has an HDMI port and an RJ45 connector?

 

 

Follows the same logic as I just talked about.

 

 

Stll, this keeps them out of the Home Theater market for those with projectors. It may not be the biggest market, but it’s being exclusionary when there’s no need to be.

 

 

Yes it does, not unless you use some additional adapters and such.

 

I’ve looked at the Arcana, which looks like a useful device, but I resent the idea that, to get my AMP working decently with this, I had to pay $700 (which is a nice chunk, especially when it’s so limited in options and design setups and I still have to use my own speakers) and then still pay another $200 for it to work decently.

 

 

You don’t need Arcana for the Amp, as you can use optical with it, via the adapter I mentioned earlier.  Arcana doesn’t work with ARC anyway, it’s eARC only.  It’s useful for the Sonos Arc and the Gen 2 Beam.

 

I’m confused at this point. As I mentioned, AMP has no optical connectors. Omitting the RJ45s (since you’re not going to get good sync if you send the audio over a LAN (and I don’t think any video players do that), there are only two possible inputs: Audio post (analog) and HDMI, which you say is an output.

The HDMI switch does have a TOSLink optical output, though. (I use that on the big system to connect to the Playbar - but, as I said, it’s got sync issues.)

So if I use this dongle, I’m not at all sure how I’d set it up with the AMP.

 

 

With the dongle, HDMI side connects to the Amp.  Optical side connects to your optical cable.  Basically, the optical signal is coverted over to the channels in HDMI  cable for ARC audio.

 

 

Here’s what makes sense to me: Use HDMI cables and connectors for the whole shebang. I get that seems to be the way it’s going. But it seems clear to me (if not to Sonos) that there are going to be high end systems that do NOT use ARC/eARC. I get that there may be sync issues, but, again, that kind of thing can be in the settings - you have to turn on NON-ARC HDMI and when you do, you get a warning about sync issues and so on.

Thank you for a well thought out reply!

 

There are older setups that don’t use ARC/eARC, but everything (sans projectors and small TVs) are going to have ARC/eARC.  For one thing, it’s the only way to get anything more than dolby 5.1 audio out of your  smart TV when your using an embed steaming app and not an HDMI source.

I would agree the ARC/eARC is confusing and possibly not the best solution to solve the issues of sending audio around to the right places, but it is the standard that’s been adopted and implemented.  The old way of having HDMI cables where data only flowed in one direction were easier to understand, but they have limitations too.

 

 

Danny
T
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@melvimbe :

Okay, looking over everything, I see what you’re saying: Don’t look at input or output in relationship to the device, but in relationship to the cable.

I think a lot of the rest of your last post is clarification, so, rather than reviewing all that, I’m starting fresh.

I see the link you provided, but I still don’t see how it’ll help. I do have an optical output on my HDMI switcher, but no optical outputs from either TV. (For reference, they are an Epson Home Cinema 1450, bought in 2017, the 2nd is a Sony VPL-VW295ES bought in 2019.) Neither manual mentions ARC or using an HDMI port for audio. So if I got the dongle and plugged the optical into the switcher, I’d have an HDMI signal to use for the AMP, but it’s the same as when I used a splitter to take my normal HDMI out and run one cable to the TV and one to the AMP: I’d just be sending the same signal to the AMP that I was before.

I have searched for something besides Arcana for ARC generation. If I’m missing something, let me know. (I even looked up to see if anyone is using a Raspberry Pi to generate ARC - hell, if I had the time, I’d see if I could write something to do that for an Arduino or Pi.)

I have to be honest that it seems to me that the TV is not always going to be in an actual entertainment center. For instance, at my old house, I had the entertainment center on shelves to one side of the fireplace and the TV over the mantel. Having to use two cables seems, in many ways, a waste.

I never got back to you about the Line In not working. While that may not be designed for a projector, it seems to me that if you have a projector, it’s about the only way you can use an AMP for sound. While the PlayBar uses optical and doesn’t seem to need anything like that, I’m betting the ARC does require ARC - which is really stupid, since that almost instantly puts it out of the running for projection systems. (That’s why I say they really need a way to turn that requirement on and off!) You only have to choices to get audio into an AMP: HDMI-ARC and Line In. If you don’t have ARC, then it’s Line-In. And if the AMP would just STAY on Line In without us having to reset it frequently, I wouldn’t feel like Sonos is just arrogantly and cavalierly screwing me (and others, I’m sure) over.

106rallye
Userlevel 7
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The dongle (actually an optical to HDMI-ARC converter) will, via your switch, create an HDMI-ARC signal from non-ARC sources. It is not “the same as when I used a splitter to take my normal HDMI out and run one cable to the TV and one to the AMP”. In this respect is is comparable to the Arcana: getting the sound signal from your source to the Amp using the right pins (ARC) on the HDMI connector (so at least partly not a software but a hardware solution). To me it looks like you need this.

I do still think you expect too much from Sonos. Sonos is probaly not “being exclusionary when there’s no need to be” but has made a choice. If it would be easy to cater to the projector crowd, Sonos would do this. Sonos has chosen differently, probably because it is not easy tot do and/or they see no commercial prompt to do so. If you exdpect this, Sonos is maybe not for you.

T
Badge +2

The dongle (actually an optical to HDMI-ARC converter) will, via your switch, create an HDMI-ARC signal from non-ARC sources. It is not “the same as when I used a splitter to take my normal HDMI out and run one cable to the TV and one to the AMP”. In this respect is is comparable to the Arcana: getting the sound signal from your source to the Amp using the right pins (ARC) on the HDMI connector (so at least partly not a software but a hardware solution). To me it looks like you need this.

 

This is my HDMI switch, which does have an ARC button on it, but it doesn’t generate ARC signals and my TV does not. So if I get the dongle, for it to work, it’d have to create an ARC signal by itself. The reason I’m trying to nail that down is because it’s a $25 product compared to Arcana, at $200.

 

I do still think you expect too much from Sonos. Sonos is probaly not “being exclusionary when there’s no need to be” but has made a choice. If it would be easy to cater to the projector crowd, Sonos would do this. Sonos has chosen differently, probably because it is not easy tot do and/or they see no commercial prompt to do so.

If Sonos were a cheap or low priced product, I could see that reasoning much more easily, but for the price, being able to take a direct input that is ARC or not (or adding a 2nd HDMI) is not that unreasonable. A digital incoming audio signal is being processed. If HDMI source is coming into the AMP, then there are digital signals there that can be listened to with just the normal HDMI signal, from the same connector. If my switch, under $100, can extract the audio from a normal HDMI signal, it’s rather silly, or even lame, that that the AMP can’t do the same and is limited to ARC.

This isn’t about “catering” to a crowd. It’s about including an option that would make sense in the first place. Again, if a switch for a much lower price can extra audio from normal HDMI, why is it impossible for the AMP to do that?

 

If you exdpect this, Sonos is maybe not for you.

Honestly, I’ve always thought that comment, on pretty much any product, is a lazy and closed-minded thing to say. But then again, most products and companies, in my experience, are more about finding solutions than saying, to people spending a lot of money, “We have no desire to make things work here.” I’m not trying to start an argument, but it’s a far cry from an attitude of, “How can this product benefit this person.”

I’ve made it quite clear I’d be quite satisfied if the AMP would remember it’s on Line-In and not drop that setting (excuse me - state - I’m expected to keep track of what is a setting and what is a state!) at odd times. (I originally thought it was power flickers, even with a UPS, that led to that state change, but it’s happening even when we don’t have flickers.) I’ve brought up the price quite a bit. For a $700 product to keep track of some settings and states and not others, which makes things confusing for the user, is poor design. How is a user supposed to know, without coming here and being told, the difference between a setting and a state? And how is a user supposed to keep up with what settings or states get dropped at times and which don’t?

Is it acceptable that a product beyond the $20 range can’t maintain a setting from one use to the next? Out of the two options I’m looking at here, the simplest one is just being able to expect an expensive device to keep track of settings once they’re set. I don’t see how such an expectation would make Sonos not be for me.

As for ARC, well, considering that Line In means taking the analog output from the switch and running it to AMP, when ARC will take the same digital signal from the switch and run it to the AMP, so the AMP gets the original audio signal, I don’t see why there’s an issue with me trying to find a way to do that if possible.

106rallye
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You are right about the dongle. It does not make an ARC signal where there isn’t one in the first place. Sorry for the confusion.

I do not disagree with you on the Amp losing the Line-in. This seems to be an (as yet unexplained?) fault, especially when it occurs without even a power failure.

As for HDMI-ARC. Sonos made a few choices when designing their HDMI-enabled soundbars. Most important choice was to work with HDMI-ARC and nothing else. They have stayed with this choice since. They must have had good technical or commercial reasons for this choice in the first place and they have seen no reason for a change on this in the last couple of years, for which they also must have good reasons. You are confronted with one of the disadvantages of this choice: you have no ARC capable TV. You have the absolute right to try and find a solution for this. But you should not blame Sonos for sticking to their original design choice. If there would be any commercial benefit in this, Sonos would have done it. Since they haven’t I do not think you have the right to complain about it just because devices are a bit expensive. You can ask them kindly to change their design, but if they do not do that they must have good reasons for it: it is not a technically or commercially viable option. If it does not work for you then it really is “take it or leave it”. There is nothing no other choice.

buzz

TangoMe,

As a quick test have you tried using the PLAYBAR optical to HDMI converter with AMP?

106rallye
Userlevel 7
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As I understand it @TangoMe  uses a switch that has an optical out but no attached sources that provide ARC. I doubt that this will work.

buzz

Historically, HDMI has been a one way video + audio connection connecting sources to a TV or A/V system. Many current TV’s include Apps and there is a need to send audio back to the A/V system. This is the point of HDMI-ARC (Audio Return Channel). The return channel is a separate path and both the TV and A/V system must be able to deal with this. A simple software update cannot add Audio Return Channel support unless the hardware paths were already in place. eARC increases the return audio channel features and bandwidth, supporting more advanced audio features. Again, both ends of the connection need to support this.

Very few HDMI switches deal with the Audio Return Channel or eARC. Since projectors don’t usually include Apps, there is no need for projector Audio Return Channel support. Probably it would be prudent for projectors to include HDMI-ARC support because it would eliminate a lot of user confusion and hassles.

The optical output from HDMI switches, when passed through the SONOS optical adaptor, will appear to be an Audio Return Channel feed to the SONOS ARC or BEAM. SONOS ARC or BEAM will not accept regular HDMI audio feeds, only HDMI-ARC or HDMI-eARC are supported.

 

T
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Very few HDMI switches deal with the Audio Return Channel or eARC. Since projectors don’t usually include Apps, there is no need for projector Audio Return Channel support. Probably it would be prudent for projectors to include HDMI-ARC support because it would eliminate a lot of user confusion and hassles.

At the time when I ordered this switch I had not heard of ARC. (At that point I had not bought new equipment for a few years, knowing I’d be moving in the future, and what I was getting was for two projection systems.) It does support ARC, but, of course, does not generate ARC.

It may or may not be good for projectors to include ARC, but when you look at the names behind nicer projectors, I think what they do will go farther toward defining a standard than what Sonos or other companies making sound or accessory products will do. Arcana does help with that, but, seriously, this is our small system, for just TV watching, not for movies or bigger deals when I have friends over (well, I was doing that - before the pandemic). The projector was something like $1,200 for this system. I can’t justify, even to myself, spending $900 on a sound system for that setup when that doesn’t even include the speakers.

The optical output from HDMI switches, when passed through the SONOS optical adaptor, will appear to be an Audio Return Channel feed to the SONOS ARC or BEAM. SONOS ARC or BEAM will not accept regular HDMI audio feeds, only HDMI-ARC or HDMI-eARC are supported.

From what I’m hearing, though, unless there is already an ARC signal in the system, the adaptor won’t generate ARC. I’m already quite frustratingly aware that the AMP won’t accept regular HDMI audio - which is the thing I’m most ticked off about. I get that, without ARC, there might be sync issues, but it seems to me the AMP should be able to pull audio out of HDMI. If Sonos is worried about sync issues, then the switch to turn non-ARC HDMI on could be put a few levels down in the menus, so it’s buried and when it’s selected, the app can give a warning that sync might be an issue. (Just like, every time the AMP resets itself to HDMI in, and I have to reset it to Line In, it gives me a warning.)
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Going to your other post, @buzz, regarding the PlayBar, you saw the link to the HDMI switch I'm using. It has analog, HDMI, and TOSLink outputs. For the PlayBar, I’m not using any adaptors, just a cable from the switch to the PlayBar. Generally it’s okay, but there are sync issues sometimes. Not all the time, but at times the audio and video go out of sync. The advisor at Crutchfield (and people at Crutchfield really know their stuff!) has said he has had reports from several people of that issue with the PlayBar and an optical cable. I’ve considered moving the PlayBar, since I could use it in my study, using network audio, and replacing it with an ARC. But once I ran into this problem, and found that the AMP can’t even maintain the Line-In setting, and that there’s no interest in looking at the ARC-less issue with projectors, I’m seriously considering replacing the entire 5.1 system there with non-Sonos. (And, honestly, if I do that, it’s the gateway that might lead to me eventually dropping Sonos all together. Not out of retaliation, but because I’d rather use products from companies that are more responsive and not as narrowly focused with blinders as Sonos seems to be.)

 

You are right about the dongle. It does not make an ARC signal where there isn’t one in the first place. Sorry for the confusion.

I do not disagree with you on the Amp losing the Line-in. This seems to be an (as yet unexplained?) fault, especially when it occurs without even a power failure.

As for HDMI-ARC. Sonos made a few choices when designing their HDMI-enabled soundbars. Most important choice was to work with HDMI-ARC and nothing else. They have stayed with this choice since. They must have had good technical or commercial reasons for this choice in the first place and they have seen no reason for a change on this in the last couple of years, for which they also must have good reasons. You are confronted with one of the disadvantages of this choice: you have no ARC capable TV. You have the absolute right to try and find a solution for this. But you should not blame Sonos for sticking to their original design choice. If there would be any commercial benefit in this, Sonos would have done it. Since they haven’t I do not think you have the right to complain about it just because devices are a bit expensive. You can ask them kindly to change their design, but if they do not do that they must have good reasons for it: it is not a technically or commercially viable option. If it does not work for you then it really is “take it or leave it”. There is nothing no other choice.

We don’t know the reasons for the choice and we don’t know the reasons for sticking with it. I don’t know Sonos, as a company, well enough, to know WHY they make their decisions. But I don’t entirely trust that such decisions were made to benefit the customers or with the entire market in mind. It seems to me that if one is covering higher end equipment, that would include nice home theater setups. I have a 134” screen. Granted, you can get a 120” LCD screen - for about $130,000, but I think that makes the case that film buffs who want a theater experience are going to go for a projection system. (Unless they’re multi-millionaires!) I’ll grant that big screen home theater is not nearly as big a market as people who may get, say, an 84” LCD smart TV and want a good system, but by ignoring this segment of the market, Sonos is also pretty much sending a message they’re avoiding a higher end market. But when you look at Arcana, at $200, and figure that includes design costs and that, as a single product, it’s a higher cost than if it were integrated into something else (or offered at a discount to customers who need it to make an audio component work), I do seriously question Sonos for excluding non-ARC HDMI. If the non-ARC issue were a rare or outdated one, I’d say I was just unlucky. It’s not.

The reason could be, “We did this, if we change, it looks like we made a mistake,” or, “We have this and we have a large supply of parts, so we’ll stick to it.” 

As to asking them to change their design - I seriously doubt, as a company, they care that much. Which is why I’m seriously considering something else for the nice home theater setup - and, as I said earlier, if I do that, it may very well open the door to just move past Sonos and gradually replace it all. I like having one system for the entire house and barn. It makes it easier for my wife and our relatives that visit to use the sound system when they want to listen to something.

I’ll see if I can get someone on the phone tomorrow about the dongle and see if it does provide HDMI-ARC or just converts whatever it gets as input. (I’m betting it just converts.)

106rallye
Userlevel 7
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Reading the comments by  @buzz I do think you should ask Sonos about the dongle. For your comments about Sonos and HDMI-ARC vs the projector community I think it is Sonos’ choice to leave that part of the market behind. For whatever reason. You think this is not a wise decision - Sonos does.

T
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Reading the comments by  @buzz I do think you should ask Sonos about the dongle. For your comments about Sonos and HDMI-ARC vs the projector community I think it is Sonos’ choice to leave that part of the market behind. For whatever reason. You think this is not a wise decision - Sonos does.

And unless people like me don’t stand up and say, “This sucks!” then they’ll never get an idea of whether or not there are people in that market who want Sonos.

Most people just say, “Damn,” and don’t bother to voice their concerns. I learned that with my business: The people who don’t complain are the ones that often go elsewhere and leave you wondering what’s going on. The vocal ones often show trends that aren’t always obvious in other ways.

106rallye
Userlevel 7
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Since your concerns are about the major technical choice Sonos has made when designing its soundbars they have probably been noted and set aside a long time ago. Yes, Sonos is missing customers as a result of this choice. And when they realise this part of the customer base is big enough they might change it. Since the choice is basic Sonos, I do not think the chances are great they will change this. But I have been surprised before. You do sound a bit like "Sonos should do this because they are expensive and I want them to” though. That's not the way it works.

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