I have a ZP90 bought in 2009.The main reason (initially) was it gave bit perfect sound and I found it is easily better than CD provided you rip with EAC.
I now want a second one. However, looking on here for the first time in a while it seems the Connect isn't bit perfect.
Seems strange, but it appears my old ZP90 is better than the current Connect.
My question is this:
If I buy a second hand ZP90 is it guaranteed to be bit perfect?
Bit Perfect ZP90
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If I buy a second hand ZP90 is it guaranteed to be bit perfect?
How can a conversion, even a lossless one, be even slightly better than the original?
Based on all reports here, there has been no change made to zp90s, so, for what its worth, it will be bit perfect.
Thanks for the reply. The sonos faithfully reproduces the data extracted from the disc provided it's accurate. My CD player was not great and the zp90 is a massive improvement.
A CD player must read the data in real-time. Built-in forward error correction will allow some recovery of mis-read data, but it can only go so far.
A rip, especially one by a secure ripper such as EAC, can take as long as it wants to ensure the data is read accurately. This can include multiple passes and, at the end, a comparison of the track's checksum with online databases.
My question was with reference to the CD, not the output from the CD player because the first OP post wasn't clear which of the two was being referred. Even with a CDP though, how would the errors/misreading manifest themselves? A stutter here or there, or an overall SQ degradation? I suspect the former; if so, if one doesn't hear these stutters, all is good?
I believe that a CDP which is unable to recover lost bits using forward error correction (in essence, redundant data) will 'make up' the missing samples, either by interpolation or simple repetition.
Yes, but how will this get manifested in what is heard?
Something I came across recently - Reed Solomon coding invented over 50 years ago and used in CDPs from the beginning. Quote: This code is so strong that most CD playback errors are almost certainly caused by tracking errors that cause the laser to jump track, not by uncorrectable error bursts.[5] Unquote
Relevant to topic?
Something I came across recently - Reed Solomon coding invented over 50 years ago and used in CDPs from the beginning. Quote: This code is so strong that most CD playback errors are almost certainly caused by tracking errors that cause the laser to jump track, not by uncorrectable error bursts.[5] Unquote
Relevant to topic?
Although the OP has heard what he wanted to - I think - an interesting question nevertheless. If I was to take a standard CDP from the early days, that is in good working condition, and one bought today off the shelf and not an exotic high end version, and played a recent high recording quality CD via both, would I hear any differences, assuming no other variables?
Presumably as tiny degradations in audio quality, though by the sound of things tracking errors are more common. All I can say is that I've seen EAC make multiple attempts to read the data before succeeding. A CDP doesn't have that luxury.
Yes, and I strongly suspect that the tiny degradations would be lost downstream in the chain before the sound hits the ears. When I rip CDs in iTunes, I do check the error correction box of course; other than a little more ripping time, there is nothing to be lost in doing that.
And although technically obsolete now, I also suspect that the GBP 50 kind of DVD players that also play CDs are perfectly adequate if one must still play CDs.
And although technically obsolete now, I also suspect that the GBP 50 kind of DVD players that also play CDs are perfectly adequate if one must still play CDs.
And although technically obsolete now, I also suspect that the GBP 50 kind of DVD players that also play CDs are perfectly adequate if one must still play CDs.
You rip in iTunes? You surprise me. The amount of times accurip reports problems, especially with end tracks in a disc, I wouldn't use anything but EAC with that plug in.
I have not had a single issue since 2007 with the 15000 or so tracks I have ripped via iTunes, so I am good with it. ALAC and AAC both.
No skipping rips? No degradation of sound quality through disc rot with some (older) CDs? You've been lucky. EAC with accurip is really good for spotting dirt on discs, scratches etc that mean you need to re-rip. It covers all possibilities including minor checksum mismatches that may not be audible.
Ahh...don't I know it? In many many ways, including in the way that my HiFi/room acoustics/ear quality are such that I don't even hear any differences between say, HighNote or ECM CDs that I have ripped on iTunes using ALAC, and music from these houses that I have bought on iTunes in 256 kbps lossy AAC! That happy state of affairs allows me to also enjoy Apple music streaming just as much as music from my NAS, and to not lose any sleep about whether my zp90 is still a virgin with respect to being bit perfect. And to also be perfectly content with a 1 pair + Sub in my main listening area.
Based on all reports here, there has been no change made to zp90s, so, for what its worth, it will be bit perfect.
It is important to make a distinction between a ZP90 and a Connect. I think, as Kumar says, the ZP90 hasn't changed and will be bit-perfect (although this should actually be tested - we're only guessing at the moment). The Connect, on the other hand, has changed and become bit-imperfect. See this marathon thread. There will be a test afterwards 🙂
Thanks for this clarification. I'm beginning to wonder why the Connect exists!
Ahh...don't I know it? In many many ways, including in the way that my HiFi/room acoustics/ear quality are such that I don't even hear any differences between say, HighNote or ECM CDs that I have ripped on iTunes using ALAC, and music from these houses that I have bought on iTunes in 256 kbps lossy AAC! That happy state of affairs allows me to also enjoy Apple music streaming just as much as music from my NAS...
I know what you are saying and this is often true with unfamiliar music. However as music reveals itself on repeated listenings the differences become clear. Usually subtle and sometimes glaringly obvious. I want to be sure that the source simply plays all the data originally on the CD. I've never had a source that's done this before and now I have.
For someone that has the objective of expanding their musical horizons obtained from a CDP fed quality stereo amp + full range speakers, it is still a good way to get there, and especially so if there is also a need to expand music into other rooms via kit like Sonos play units. Provided that the amp has enough of service life left or access to cheap repairs for it.
Or for someone that wants to play a TT via a 1 pair. I can't see that it has too many other uses.
So I am pretty sure it goes head to head with the Connect Amp and perhaps the 3 unit for the title of product with the least number of unit sales.
As to things becoming clear with familiar music, I don't find that to be the case, so I doubt that any thing Sonos has done to the Connect is something I will pick out. One thing I know for a fact - I do not have golden ears.
Or for someone that wants to play a TT via a 1 pair. I can't see that it has too many other uses.
So I am pretty sure it goes head to head with the Connect Amp and perhaps the 3 unit for the title of product with the least number of unit sales.
As to things becoming clear with familiar music, I don't find that to be the case, so I doubt that any thing Sonos has done to the Connect is something I will pick out. One thing I know for a fact - I do not have golden ears.
Kumar, the mystery of our audiophile opinion differences is revealed, you do not have golden ears, and I do! Just kidding. Mine are not golden either.
Regarding ripping. I used iTunes Apple Lossless for several years, primarily because I used an iPod for portable music and played CDs on my system. When I started streaming with an Airport Express optically from my iPod I thought something was wrong. I had no idea what, just that my CDs sounded better. Also, I was getting crackling and popping. I was using a new Marantz 6005 amp. I exchanged it with Amazon. Same problem. I spoke with Amazon and a Marantz tech (Amazon can get one on the line with you) and he suggested I step up to the 7005. Same problem. It turns out that all amps that use a Crirus Logic CR4398 DAC chip have this issue with the Airport Express. Plus the Airport Express had to be reset every week or two.
In the meantime, while exchanging all these amps, I downloaded EAC and ripped a bunch of tracks, converted the Apple Lossless files to WAV files and compared them. I didn't know about the software that can do this without converting. I found that about 25% of my Apple Lossless had one or several bad areas. I assumed the EAC rip was accurate, being its reason for existence. This did not turn out to be the reason for my problem, as I have explained, but I was fed up with the mess iTunes makes trying to organize music. Cover art here, cover art embedded - sometimes - and a real chore to clean up, or even comprehend how to clean up. And relearn a new iTunes interface every major release. I had heard about dbPoweramp because it also uses the accurate rip database and it rips at least 10 times faster than EAC. I have reripped my music and cleaned it up with MP3TAG. I'm very happy with both. There is a nice batch converter that comes with dbPoweramp that lets me make Apple Lossless for a iPod or MP3s for a USB stick for my car. So, my main library is FLAC.
Nothing really controversial here, just the way I have settled in with ripped music. But I can confirm that iTunes does not accurately rip in a lot of cases. Especially older CDs that have been around the block or have peanut butter or whatever on them. I get a warning from dbPoweramp, clean the disc or deal with a scratch in most cases. I have not gone to the trouble of critically listening to see if I could spot bad rips, but a few were obvious, as xxalanxx claims. Maybe the drive in our computer, who knows?
Regarding ripping. I used iTunes Apple Lossless for several years, primarily because I used an iPod for portable music and played CDs on my system. When I started streaming with an Airport Express optically from my iPod I thought something was wrong. I had no idea what, just that my CDs sounded better. Also, I was getting crackling and popping. I was using a new Marantz 6005 amp. I exchanged it with Amazon. Same problem. I spoke with Amazon and a Marantz tech (Amazon can get one on the line with you) and he suggested I step up to the 7005. Same problem. It turns out that all amps that use a Crirus Logic CR4398 DAC chip have this issue with the Airport Express. Plus the Airport Express had to be reset every week or two.
In the meantime, while exchanging all these amps, I downloaded EAC and ripped a bunch of tracks, converted the Apple Lossless files to WAV files and compared them. I didn't know about the software that can do this without converting. I found that about 25% of my Apple Lossless had one or several bad areas. I assumed the EAC rip was accurate, being its reason for existence. This did not turn out to be the reason for my problem, as I have explained, but I was fed up with the mess iTunes makes trying to organize music. Cover art here, cover art embedded - sometimes - and a real chore to clean up, or even comprehend how to clean up. And relearn a new iTunes interface every major release. I had heard about dbPoweramp because it also uses the accurate rip database and it rips at least 10 times faster than EAC. I have reripped my music and cleaned it up with MP3TAG. I'm very happy with both. There is a nice batch converter that comes with dbPoweramp that lets me make Apple Lossless for a iPod or MP3s for a USB stick for my car. So, my main library is FLAC.
Nothing really controversial here, just the way I have settled in with ripped music. But I can confirm that iTunes does not accurately rip in a lot of cases. Especially older CDs that have been around the block or have peanut butter or whatever on them. I get a warning from dbPoweramp, clean the disc or deal with a scratch in most cases. I have not gone to the trouble of critically listening to see if I could spot bad rips, but a few were obvious, as xxalanxx claims. Maybe the drive in our computer, who knows?
There is a setting in iTunes to use error correction while ripping. I wonder if this is anywhere near as good as EAC?
I have only tested one track by recording the digital output directly from my CD player and comparing to the iTunes rip. They were identical.
Cheers, Peter.
I have only tested one track by recording the digital output directly from my CD player and comparing to the iTunes rip. They were identical.
Cheers, Peter.
If I had seen the kind of problems you did, I too would have looked for something else; I did not, so I stayed with Mac/iTunes for my ripping. And I haven't ripped more than a couple of CDs in the last 2-3 years, since I started buying music on iTunes. Which now has largely stopped because of Apple Music. So my NAS is almost stagnant in content, with a mix of ALAC/AAC 256 kbps. And works flawlessly. One reason could be that my CDs were immaculately kept.
My first foray into streaming was via AEX into my stereo; music quality was good via both optical and analog, which opened my eyes to streaming but I kept having music drops which led me to Sonos. And where I have stayed ever since, because there has been no incentive to change, because both sound quality and stable music streaming are what I need them to be.
My first foray into streaming was via AEX into my stereo; music quality was good via both optical and analog, which opened my eyes to streaming but I kept having music drops which led me to Sonos. And where I have stayed ever since, because there has been no incentive to change, because both sound quality and stable music streaming are what I need them to be.
I have only tested one track by recording the digital output directly from my CD player and comparing to the iTunes rip. They were identical.
Cheers, Peter.
I used that setting. It might have to do with me immediately ripped any purchased CDs in the past few years and some of the ones dating back to the 1980s giving iTunes problems. When it encounters an error, I don't think it makes much of an effort to make a correct read, and it has never told me about a problem so I could have a look at the disc.
No teenagers playing your CDs, or colleagues at work borrowing them, I guess.
Kumar and Peter Mc,
If you have not used EAC or dbPoweramp, you have not experienced what happens when either of them encounter an error. It takes both quite a long time to reposition the read head on the continuous spiral CD track to make another try. Nothing like a hard disc read head setting on a circular track rotating at 7,500 RPM and waiting for the sector to come around again for another try. They both retry the read many times, the drive being obviously very busy, and they let you know about it. Based on the track number, you can make a guess about where the problem is and find a speck (not really peanut butter) or damage. Most can be cleaned or polished. I use McGuires #10 and #17 Plastic Polish and cleaner. I have had some privately produced CDs from small-time groups with errors on brand new discs and I can hear a skip when the ripped track is played. Good song, grrrr, bad song, delete. With iTunes I have never had a similar notification. Therefore, I have no idea how it deals with error recovery, or if it does, just that I have Apple Lossless files that do not match after converting them to WAV.
Why am I awake at 3:00 AM?
I haven't had one too, but that does not say anything conclusive, and I don't have any idea either how error correction works in iTunes. I also haven't ever felt the need to convert/match files as Peter and you have done, with different results I notice. As long as the files sound good, I haven't the motivation.
In my photography I always shoot RAW, but that is for the much higher ability that I obtain from RAW over JPEG in post processing; since I don't do any such thing with my music files, the audio equivalent of RAW is of no value to me. Like I said, I find just as good sound from AAC 256 kbps.
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