iTunes Library Manager

Joel,

As far as the doubling up goes please note:

1. All my lossless files and all my compressed files are stored on my NAS drive BUT under two different shares (i.e. one share is called AppleLossless, the other share is called MP3).

Are you indexing both of these shares within Sonos and do you have separate "iTunes Library.xml" files under each share? If you are only indexing the AppleLossless share in Sonos what do you do about tracks that you only have in a compressed/lossey format? For the albums in AppleLossless format do you have all of the tracks in MP3 format under the MP3 share also? If both shares are indexed, Sonos will pick up both versions of the same track. For this reason my share on my NAS is simply called Sonos and only contains one file per track in the highest quality format available. I don't have different share names for different filetypes. Each track is also on my local PC in the compressed format (mainly mp3) for use with my iPod and these tracks are not indexed by Sonos.

2. I am certain that only one lossless track exists for each album, that only one lossless track appears in the SONOS library, etc.

3. Perhaps to be clearer I was using iTLU separately for the lossless and lossy libraries. That is:

a) I would rip the CD in AppleLossless to the AppleLossless share drive using dBpoweramp.

b) I would convert the AppleLoss files to the MP3 files on the MP3 share drive using dBpoweramp's batch converter

c) I would then use iTLU separately on each share to add the files to the iTune library but, in each of the shares, the files would be doubled (i.e. not physically doubled on the drive but doubled within iTunes because the resulting iTL after running the application listed each file/song twice).

d) Thus, I stopped using the application but am very happy to give the new version a go...I will simply make a copy of my iTL before running it.

I have never used ITLU (iTunes Library Updater I assume?) but you have answered one of my earlier questions. For a single track you have an MP3 version under your MP3 share and an AppleLossless version under your AppleLossless share. If you have MP3 downloads (with no Apple Lossless equivalent) I presume you are placing them in the MP3 share? If you are indexing both shares any tracks in both formats will be imported into Sonos twice regardless of whatever iTunes libraries you have in these shares. The Sonos indexer will index all tracks it finds rather than just the tracks defined within your iTunes libraries.

Do you have an Apple Lossless iTunes Library on your Apple Lossless share and an MP3 iTunes Library on your MP3 share? Are tracks that you only have in MP3 format in both shares and libraries?

It sounds like the ITLU application is adding both MP3 and AppleLossless copies of each track to the same library. Showing the Kind column within iTunes will confirm this.

Not usre I understand the above bit regarding but will play with things when I give it a go...really, at least for now, most interested in using iTLU to:

a) Add lossless songs to my lossless iTunes library that have been ripped by dBpoweramp

b) After a) above automatically i) convert the above added songs to lossy formats and ii) add said songs to my lossy iTune library...a *HUGE* added bonus would be the ability to carry over ratings in the conversion process from lossless to lossy.

c) After a) above automatically re-index my SONOS library

I can't advise on how to use ITLU as I'm not the author of that application and have never used it. I can advise on how to structure your music for use with my application however. I only have a single iTunes library for my lossey tracks (mainly mp3's stored on my local pc and not indexed by Sonos) and use my app to generate the "iTunes Library.xml" file pointing to the mainly lossless tracks on my Sonos share that are indexed.

Got it...sounds (pun intended) good!

Again, much thanks...hope you had a Merry Christmas and a good satrt to the new year...will connect with you over the next few days when I have a new CD to rip and have used the latest version...

Joel

I had a great Christmas thanks. I hope yours was good too and you had a great overseas trip. If you have MSN it would be good to chat on there to clear up your understanding of my application and my understanding of how your music is currently organised. I really should do a tutorial about structuring music for lossey and lossless setups. Essentially you need to keep the lossey and lossless files independent from each other and only index the lossless files + any tracks that you don't have in a lossless format. If you keep MP3's and your master lossey library pointing to those mp3's on a laptop those tracks and library are available on your travels. If you store the mp3's on your NAS they are not available when you leave the house.

In Summary my recommended approach is:
MP3 = Best for portability and ipods so store on your local pc/laptop and do not index in your Sonos system.

Apple Lossless = Best for use just when you are at home using your Sonos system so store on a NAS share along with any tracks that you do not have a lossless version of. Index only these tracks within your Sonos system and ensure that there is only one version of each track available to Sonos.

iTunes = Have one master iTunes library on your local PC pointing to the local MP3's, and use this library with your iPod.

Then use my app to repoint local mp3 links in your master lossey library to the same mp3's or higher quality equivalents on your nas share indexed by Sonos.

Keeping the folder structures the same on your local PC and NAS helps to keep the mapping rules simple.

Speak soon

Darren

Joel,



Are you indexing both of these shares within Sonos and do you have separate "iTunes Library.xml" files under each share? If you are only indexing the AppleLossless share in Sonos what do you do about tracks that you only have in a compressed/lossey format? For the albums in AppleLossless format do you have all of the tracks in MP3 format under the MP3 share also? If both shares are indexed, Sonos will pick up both versions of the same track. For this reason my share on my NAS is simply called Sonos and only contains one file per track in the highest quality format available. I don't have different share names for different filetypes. Each track is also on my local PC in the compressed format (mainly mp3) for use with my iPod and these tracks are not indexed by Sonos.


In response:

1. I have two shared drives -- 1 for lossless and 1 for lossy.

2. I am indexing only the lossless share drive for SONOS.

3. Each iTunes library has its own/separate iTunes library.xml files (i.e. both libraries are "complete and separate" and are identical in every way other than 1 is lossless and 1 is lossy).




I have never used ITLU (iTunes Library Updater I assume?) but you have answered one of my earlier questions. For a single track you have an MP3 version under your MP3 share and an AppleLossless version under your AppleLossless share. If you have MP3 downloads (with no Apple Lossless equivalent) I presume you are placing them in the MP3 share? If you are indexing both shares any tracks in both formats will be imported into Sonos twice regardless of whatever iTunes libraries you have in these shares. The Sonos indexer will index all tracks it finds rather than just the tracks defined within your iTunes libraries.


See my above response as this is *NOT* the case as I *DO NOT* download music in that I am a purist and i) purchase the CDs ii) rip the CDs in AppleLossless and iii) convert the AppleLossess to MP with the AppleLossless tracks being used for my SONOS and the MP3 tracks being used for my iPod.

Because I do manage my music in this manner both libraries -- even down to the playlists -- are identical in every way.




Do you have an Apple Lossless iTunes Library on your Apple Lossless share and an MP3 iTunes Library on your MP3 share? Are tracks that you only have in MP3 format in both shares and libraries?


See my above response...




It sounds like the ITLU application is adding both MP3 and AppleLossless copies of each track to the same library. Showing the Kind column within iTunes will confirm this.


Quite possibly but this would surpirse me as i) the AppleLossless and MP3 files are on separate shares and ii) more importantly, I never connect to both shares when running ITLU so how could it possibly grab both.

With that, it is also important to note that the doubling up occurs in the iTunes library which is then carried over to the SONOS...I need to stop the doubling up in the iTunes library and then all will be grand.




I can't advise on how to use ITLU as I'm not the author of that application and have never used it. I can advise on how to structure your music for use with my application however.


Understood.




I only have a single iTunes library for my lossey tracks (mainly mp3's stored on my local pc and not indexed by Sonos) and use my app to generate the "iTunes Library.xml" file pointing to the mainly lossless tracks on my Sonos share that are indexed.


Now that you know how *BOTH* my loseless and lossy tracks are organized any and all advice would be greatly appreciated.




I had a great Christmas thanks. I hope yours was good too and you had a great overseas trip.



Good to hear and thank you...




If you have MSN it would be good to chat on there to clear up your understanding of my application and my understanding of how your music is currently organised. I really should do a tutorial about structuring music for lossey and lossless setups. Essentially you need to keep the lossey and lossless files independent from each other and only index the lossless files + any tracks that you don't have in a lossless format. If you keep MP3's and your master lossey library pointing to those mp3's on a laptop those tracks and library are available on your travels. If you store the mp3's on your NAS they are not available when you leave the house.


No MSN but can create an account should that be of assistance...that said, part of me thinks it better to continue in this manner so that all can benefit.

Regarding the structuring of my lossless and lossy iTunes libraries -- per my above responses and unless I am missing something, which is possible -- I believe that I have thinsg structured as you suggest; taht is:

1. Lossless and lossy are physically separate.

2. Lossless and lossy have separate iTunes library.xml files

3. Lossless and lossy are identical

4. SONOS indexing *DOES NOT* currently result induplicates because -- per 1. 2. and 3. above -- they are so structure with SONOS only pointing to the lossless share.



In Summary my recommended approach is:
MP3 = Best for portability and ipods so store on your local pc/laptop and do not index in your Sonos system.

Apple Lossless = Best for use just when you are at home using your Sonos system so store on a NAS share along with any tracks that you do not have a lossless version of. Index only these tracks within your Sonos system and ensure that there is only one version of each track available to Sonos.

iTunes = Have one master iTunes library on your local PC pointing to the local MP3's, and use this library with your iPod.

Then use my app to repoint local mp3 links in your master lossey library to the same mp3's or higher quality equivalents on your nas share indexed by Sonos.

Keeping the folder structures the same on your local PC and NAS helps to keep the mapping rules simple.

Speak soon

Darren

Noted; that said, given that I have two separate libraries with two separate iTune library.XML files there is -- again, unless I am missing something -- little/no purpose for me to use your application at this point as I do not have the need to "REPOINT" iTunes library.xml links from the MP3 share to the AppleLossless share...am I missing something?

Again, much thanks.


Joel

Joel,

Thanks for your detailed explanation of your setup. It has helped a lot.

Please can you explain exactly what you mean by "doubled the albums in iTunes". If you actually go into iTunes and type the album name in the search bar at the top do you see the list of tracks but each track doubled up? If this is the case, this has nothing to do with my application. Right click on the track details header within iTunes and tick the Kind option to see the file type for each track. Also you can right click on each doubled up track and choose get info to view the path to each track.

If you have a playlist for an album in iTunes and it is the playlist that appears twice within Sonos, I think I know what the problem may be. Check your appless Lossless share where your iTunes files are stored and make sure there are not multiple XML files. If you are writting the destination library xml file to the Apple Losless share the Sonos indexer will pick up both the orginal iTunes XML file and also the modified file written to your NAS by my application. My application currently prevents the source and destination library paths from being the same to prevent the original iTunes XML file from being overwritten. An enhancement to my application maybe to allow the paths to be the same, but to rename the original (source) XML file to "iTunes Library Original yyyymmddhhmmss.xml.bak" for example before the destination XML file is written to the same path as the original XML file. The Sonos indexer will not pick up the .bak file as it is only looking for iTunes XML files with the .xml extension. I do not have the problem of multiple XML files being on my Sonos share because my MP3 library (and all of the track files) are stored on my local PC. Only the XML file (destination file) pointing to my lossless tracks is stored (written by my app) to my Sonos share. If you have the source and destination iTunes Library.xml files in your appless lossless share move the original file created by iTunes to your desktop and then re-index. The Sonos indexer will then only find the XML file created by my application. It is safe to move the original XML file as iTunes will recreate it next time iTunes is opened and re-closed. The xml file is essentially created by iTunes from the master iTunes .itl file in the same directory as the xml file.

Another thought regarding the XML file. At some point iTunes changed the filename of the XML file from "iTunes Music Library.xml" to "iTunes Library.xml". I have heard reports that when this happened the original "iTunes Music Library.xml" file was left in place so that 2 xml files were found by the Sonos indexer. This also results in a doubling up of playlists. If you have both files it is safe to remove the original "iTunes Music Library.xml". It should have an old modified date.

I hope all of the above helps.

Darren

Joel,

Thanks for your detailed explanation of your setup. It has helped a lot.


Good, that was the point as I wanted us to be in the same page.




Please can you explain exactly what you mean by "doubled the albums in iTunes". If you actually go into iTunes and type the album name in the search bar at the top do you see the list of tracks but each track doubled up?


Correct, this happened a couple of times but I have since fixed this through a very painful and time consuming manual process...now, before I do anything on/to the iTunes library i ALWAYS back everything up...




If this is the case, this has nothing to do with my application. Right click on the track details header within iTunes and tick the Kind option to see the file type for each track. Also you can right click on each doubled up track and choose get info to view the path to each track.


Agreed...all were the same file type.




If you have a playlist for an album in iTunes and it is the playlist that appears twice within Sonos, I think I know what the problem may be. Check your appless Lossless share where your iTunes files are stored and make sure there are not multiple XML files. If you are writting the destination library xml file to the Apple Losless share the Sonos indexer will pick up both the orginal iTunes XML file and also the modified file written to your NAS by my application.


Agreed...this is not the case and also why all old iTunes libraries have had their extension changed to OLD so that they are NOT picked up and thus duplicated.



My application currently prevents the source and destination library paths from being the same to prevent the original iTunes XML file from being overwritten. An enhancement to my application maybe to allow the paths to be the same, but to rename the original (source) XML file to "iTunes Library Original yyyymmddhhmmss.xml.bak" for example before the destination XML file is written to the same path as the original XML file. The Sonos indexer will not pick up the .bak file as it is only looking for iTunes XML files with the .xml extension.


Great minds think alike. ;)




I do not have the problem of multiple XML files being on my Sonos share because my MP3 library (and all of the track files) are stored on my local PC. Only the XML file (destination file) pointing to my lossless tracks is stored (written by my app) to my Sonos share. If you have the source and destination iTunes Library.xml files in your appless lossless share move the original file created by iTunes to your desktop and then re-index. The Sonos indexer will then only find the XML file created by my application. It is safe to move the original XML file as iTunes will recreate it next time iTunes is opened and re-closed. The xml file is essentially created by iTunes from the master iTunes .itl file in the same directory as the xml file.


Agreed...see my responses above...




Another thought regarding the XML file. At some point iTunes changed the filename of the XML file from "iTunes Music Library.xml" to "iTunes Library.xml". I have heard reports that when this happened the original "iTunes Music Library.xml" file was left in place so that 2 xml files were found by the Sonos indexer. This also results in a doubling up of playlists. If you have both files it is safe to remove the original "iTunes Music Library.xml". It should have an old modified date.


Noted and will be checked but that said, likely not the case because the problem was a doubling up in iTunes itself which, of course, resulted in a doubling up in SONOS...




I hope all of the above helps.

Darren

It does and thanks...


Joel

Joel,

In response to the following:


Noted and will be checked but that said, likely not the case because the problem was a doubling up in iTunes itself which, of course, resulted in a doubling up in SONOS...


Do you have any tracks still in your iTunes library that are still doubled up?
I appreciate your agreement that it is not my application that is doing this. If you have any duplicates still, right click on each track in iTunes and choose Get Info. Take a look at the first tab for each track and note the path to each track. I am 99% confident they will be different paths. I have tried adding the same file to my iTunes library multiple times by dragging the file into my library. iTunes doesn't report any errors but simply ignores the file if it is already in the library. I therefore supect the duplicates are two different files. The fact that the tracks also appear twice in your Sonos library also points to two physical files for the same track existing in your share. One thing you could do is try renaming one of Apple Lossless files on your NAS share that is appearing twice in your Sonos index (and then don't reindex). If you try playing both tracks one may play and the other may report a missing file.

A note to Sonos. I don't think there is a function for finding out the path to a track file within the index. This feature is a must. Please add it or correct me if I have not seen this feature. Your should be able to right click on a track within the Sonos desktop controller and do a 'Get Info' just like in iTunes. The Get Info screen should show all the index information about the track and the path to the track that Sonos is using to play the file.

One way of getting the same physical file into your iTunes library twice, would be to add it in from the network path as well as from a mapped drive path. iTunes is likely to consider \\nas\AppleLossless\Track1.m4a and S:\Track1.m4a as two different files (where S is mapped to your \\nas\AppleLossless share). You should take care to ensure you always add tracks to iTunes from the same path. I recommend adding the tracks from a mapped network drive mapped to your \\nas\AppleLossless share.

You could also use my application to investigate the issue. If you use the Analyse Library function for the source library path and double click on the count of m4a files found you will see a list of all of the paths to your tracks. If you see a mixture of different path types that is your problem.

That's my brain dump over. I hope that helps.

Darren

Joel,

In response to the following:



Do you have any tracks still in your iTunes library that are still doubled up?


Not a one as I painfully cleaned this up...



I appreciate your agreement that it is not my application that is doing this. If you have any duplicates still, right click on each track in iTunes and choose Get Info. Take a look at the first tab for each track and note the path to each track. I am 99% confident they will be different paths. I have tried adding the same file to my iTunes library multiple times by dragging the file into my library. iTunes doesn't report any errors but simply ignores the file if it is already in the library. I therefore supect the duplicates are two different files.


Very interesting...I will try this should the duplication problem (unfortunately) reappear...




The fact that the tracks also appear twice in your Sonos library also points to two physical files for the same track existing in your share. One thing you could do is try renaming one of Apple Lossless files on your NAS share that is appearing twice in your Sonos index (and then don't reindex). If you try playing both tracks one may play and the other may report a missing file.


Noted




A note to Sonos. I don't think there is a function for finding out the path to a track file within the index. This feature is a must. Please add it or correct me if I have not seen this feature. Your should be able to right click on a track within the Sonos desktop controller and do a 'Get Info' just like in iTunes. The Get Info screen should show all the index information about the track and the path to the track that Sonos is using to play the file.

One way of getting the same physical file into your iTunes library twice, would be to add it in from the network path as well as from a mapped drive path. iTunes is likely to consider \\nas\AppleLossless\Track1.m4a and S:\Track1.m4a as two different files (where S is mapped to your \\nas\AppleLossless share). You should take care to ensure you always add tracks to iTunes from the same path. I recommend adding the tracks from a mapped network drive mapped to your \\nas\AppleLossless share.

You could also use my application to investigate the issue. If you use the Analyse Library function for the source library path and double click on the count of m4a files found you will see a list of all of the paths to your tracks. If you see a mixture of different path types that is your problem.

That's my brain dump over. I hope that helps.

Darren

Thanks for everything...very helpful...

Darren
Thanks for your response to my query. Apologies for not getting back to you sooner. Have been away over New Year.

An update on where I am up to. I decided to split my shares on my NAS drive so that I now have my FLAC and MP3 shares on different shares. I had read on the forum that the Sonos would not index duplicates if they had the same tags, so I was hoping that by indexing the flac share followed by the mp3 share on the SONOS it would ignore the mp3 duplicates and only pick up the mp3only tracks. Not so. Even though I can see just one record under say Artist/Track on the SONOS controller under Folder they are both there and a check on the status summary screen reveals I have far more records than I should have in the index! SONOS support have confirmed that they are both picked up becuase they are different (one is mp3 and one is flac). I have blown the 65,000 limit (I have about 35k UNIQUE tracks at present).

Unfortunately I have also had problems with your app with the mp3 to flac transformation feature. It kept giving me an Unknown Windows Application error (I tried it on Vista and Windows 7) at the same record number and aborting, so I gave up and decided to create the seperate share on the NAS for the FLACS.

So how do I get just the mp3only tracks into SONOS. I am now thinking - if I create a smart playlist in itunes for my mp3only tracks (I can do this based on a specific user defined tag field that I have already created). I could then use your app to just import that playlist into SONOS.

My question is. Will the SONOS recognise the mp3 tracks in the imported playlist (even though the tracks have not been directly indexed - I will only index the FLAC share) and will these mp3only tracks appear under the Artist/Title/Genre sections on the SONOS or will they just appear under the imported playlist?

Regards
Gordon

My question is. Will the SONOS recognise the mp3 tracks in the imported playlist (even though the tracks have not been directly indexed - I will only index the FLAC share) and will these mp3only tracks appear under the Artist/Title/Genre sections on the SONOS or will they just appear under the imported playlist?
Hi Darren
Answered this myself. The MP3only playlist items only appear under playlist. Now if there was a way to get them to appear under Artists, Tracks etc.
Is there any way your app can also index the tracks that are in the selected playlist.

Gordon,

Apologies for the delay in my response. I am now back at work following Christmas and the new year so many apolgies if I am a little shlower at responding.

I had a go at repointing an iTunes playlist to tracks on a non indexed NAS share a while ago but I did not get the desired results. If you do this you will find that when you add the playlist to the queue of tracks the filenames are displayed in the queue rather than the track details from the tags. (The tag details are not stored in the Sonos memory as the tracks have not been indexed). If you can put up with tracks only being available from playlists and don't mind the filenames being displayed in the queue you can use this approach to get round the 60,000 track limit. In your case it sounds like you only have 35,000 tracks so you should be able to index the highest quality version of each one without any problems.

Unfortunately my application cannot control which tracks are indexed by the Sonos indexer. It can only control what playlists are written to the customised "iTunes Library.xml" file and where each track points to. The paths to tracks can be to an indexed or non indexed share but point the tracks to indexed files wherever possible.

The only way I know of ensuring that only 1 file per track is indexed is to ensure that only 1 file per track is within the share (or shares) that is indexed by Sonos. Each file should be in the highest quality that you have available. I am not aware of any way of telling the Sonos indexer to pick the highest quality track if you have multiple versions of a track in shares indexed by Sonos.

In my setup I have my entire library as MP3's on my local PC. The iTunes library is also stored on my local PC and points to these MP3's. It is this library that I use to sync with my ipod. This is the best approach if you have a laptop as the MP3's will be available whereever your laptop goes, and you will be able to build playlists for your Sonos system when you are away from home (or indeed on your ipod)

My nas share that is indexed by Sonos (\\nas\sonos) is basically a copy of the local MP3's with any MP3's replaced with the Apple Lossless equivalent where possible. The folder structure for my local MP3's is identical on my NAS. Folders beneath Z:\Music (could be C:\Music or any other letter) on my local PC are indentical under \\nas\sonos\Music with mp3's replaced with Apple Lossless files where possible. It is important to note the word replaced. Each directory on my NAS does not contain files in both formats. Rather only 1 file in the highest available quality.

My application takes the local "iTunes Library.xml" file and changes each track definition to point to the equivalent file on my NAS based upon the rules defined within the application. The modified XML file is then written to \\nas\sonos\iTunes\Darren\iTunes Library.xml.

Regarding the problem you had with my application crashing. It sounds like it is crashing on one particular track. To debug (on your PC) I would need to add logging to the application and identify which track it was failing on and why. If you could email me a zipped copy of your "iTunes Library.xml" file I could take a look at this file for any tracks that could cause my application to crash and may be able to debug in my environment. I am keen to eliminate as many bugs as possible from my application. If you could note the track number that it fails on that would be useful too.

I hope that clears up any confusion.

Darren

Hi Darren
A further update.
I now have a seperate Sonos share on my NAS which has all my FLAC files and only the MP3 files that I don't have as FLACS. These MP3's are therefore now stored twice on my NAS. Once in the main MP3 share (used with iTunes) and again in this share. It took me some time to copy them across and make sure I had picked them all up, but I am now happy.

I then used your app (which no longer seems to abort!!!) to point the itunes/mp3 files to sonos/flac or sonos/mp3 (used 2 transformation rules) and selected 14 of my playlists. All tracks have been analysed to either the flac or mp3 folders in the sonos share (none are missing). The destination xml file is also in my Sonos share.

I reindexed in SONOS and all 14 playlists appeared. Excellent!

Also I am having some problems with window sizes which need to be resized (eg the one that pops up during the processing when it suggest a different match for a track it cannot find). The library analyse window is also too small and can't be resized at all. I can't actually see what the standard tab has on it). I am using Windows 7 64bit