Why not just group the Beam with the Amp in the Sonos app? Although there will be a slight audio delay from the speakers connected to the Amp.

Thanks for your reply,

That was one option, however it might be possible for the spill over area to work when the TV is switched off. This will of course stop the audio content going to the Beam. 

I should have mentioned that the spill over area includes a projector, which of course does not cater for ARC. It is also not possible to pass any cables between this and the AMP. 

Look forward to your further comments.

Thank you

HDMI and HDMI-ARC are not identical, which is why you can’t just plug in the HDMI cable. There is more to it, but that’s the basics.

Another option besides grouping is to use an HDMI/optical audio extractor.  Then use the Sonos dongle to convert optical to HDMI-ARC.  That would allow the amp to play the audio as a TV input.  It would not be in perfect sync with the TV, but better than grouping.

I’m not quite sure how the projector is involved though. Should the projector and TV use the same sources, or play in sync.  Will the amp be playing audio from the projector?

Hi Danny, 

As an interim solution, I used the HDMI/optical audio extractor directly with the source, however should there be additional sources, this would get complicated. I could not use this with the TV, as most current TV models do not provide a digital output if a ARC audio system is detected (or vice versa). With either case, even the TV audio is disabled (which is understandable, but not as it used to be with past TV models). 

It would be nice if the HDMI input did not cater solely for ARC but also for any HDMI that includes the audio signal as this is somewhat limited. In such a case, having a matrix with multiple sources and outputs, connecting the AMP to one of the HDMI outputs would allow for the audio of any source to the AMP, however with ARC the options are quite limited.

Grouping is fine provided the TV is powered on, however having this integrated in a control system, complicates matters to set the grouping programmatically.

In this setup, the TV and projector share the same source. Beam is used for TV audio and AMP is used to drive speakers in the projector spill over area. Hope that clarifies. 

Thank you. 

For external sources, an HDMI switch would allow for multiple source.  And of course, many switches have the audio extractor built in.  Are you saying that the TVs internal apps is one of the sources your client wants to use?  I can see where that would complicate things, but the only want to get that audio is through ARC, right?

I think you touched on one of the reasons Sonos doesn’t have HDMI inputs and outputs on their speakers.  Once they developed to normal HDMI audio in addition to ARC, there would be immediate calls for multiple inputs and at least one output to the TV (that is ARC enabled). HDMI input would be useless without an output to the TV (unless you required using a separate HDMI matrix). That means your soundbar now has to function as a full fledged AV receiver, dealing with audio and video, and all the licensing, controls, etc.  it means that your product may become outdating because it doesn’t pass through the current video standards, even though it’s up to date for audio.   Right or wrong, I can see why Sonos wanted to avoid  all that.

It’s neither here or there though.

So part of the problem isn’t so much how to connect it all, but how to connect in a way that can easily be put into a control system?

 If  the TV and projector share the same source, and the TV can connect to both Beam and Amp, then I’m not sure how the projector can’t be connected to they Amp….unless this is all wiring behind walls/ceilings you can’t get access to

I really don’t know that you’re going to find a better solution than using hdmi switch/matrix with an optical extractor.

Thanks for your reply Danny, 

So with regards to the apps on the TV - this is of course is only available on the TV itself and therefore on the Beam only (in terms of audio) - no issues there. 

I agree that for multiple sources, a switch with audio extraction would be the only way to go, although such a decent switch that provides for optical audio output is not that common. Making use of analogue audio extraction for TV sources unfortunately is misleading on the Sonos app as the ‘TV input’ only refers to the HDMI connectivity (to my knowledge).

You are right when saying that part of the problem is to connect it in a way that would make it easily controlled from a 3rd party control system, however I disagree that having the HDMI accept normal HDMI audio input other than ARC would lead to additional video requirements including inputs and outputs. I think it could be easy enough that the HDMI input could cater for audio extraction within the Sonos device itself and not limit this to ARC which is not common at all on HDMI switches and distribution amps. 

The TV and projector share the same source, however with ARC or optical on TVs, it is not possible to connect the TV to more than one device (i.e. it is not possible to connect this to both Beam and Amp at the same time). The TV switches to one active audio output - either ARC or optical and either of these is intended to be connected to one device only.  

With the present setup, an HDMI distribution amplifier that caters for optical output would solve the problem, however this is not a common device to come across as audio extraction is more popular on switches, which then are not so common to cater for mirrored multiple outputs. The cost for such a device would then add up probably beyond being feasable?

Thanks 

There are devices that can convert HDMI-ARC audio to normal HDMI audio, but they are not cheap.  And absolutely, if your client isn’t asking for it, I wouldn’t push to provide it.

I’m not following you here.  To my knowledge, Sonos has never supported analog source for TV content for their home theatre speakers.  It’s always been optical or HDMI-ARC/eARC.  Some Sonos devices do have analog inputs on some devices (Five, Port, Amp) but these are not for TV use and would result in lip sync issues.   Maybe I’m missing the point here.

Well, you’re comfortable with switches and distribution amps, but I don’t think Sonos wanted to tell customers that in order to use ‘straight’ HDMI audio input, you have to have an HDMI switching device in front of it.  Instead, Sonos is catering to the typical customer using a modern TV with ARC/eARC capabilities, not the customer who wants to have multiple audio rooms/zones with multiple displays from the same sources.

And believe me, there have been plenty of people on the forums calling for full HDMI switching functionality on Sonos products.

Right.  If you want to use two audio systems, at least one of them needs to be setup before the TV, as I think you’re doing now.

You may want to look at HD Fury products. They do have some products, a matrix called Vertex 2 for one, that can take an ARC signal and convert to HDMI.  You probably can do some programing with it if need be, although it has autoswitching capabilities.  I have one of these devices myself, although for a slightly different purpose.  I just don’t think it’s the best fit for your case though, as you still have two sound systems that need optical or HDMI-ARC as the audio source cables.

Maybe worth mentioning, but HD Fury also has a product called Arcana that takes a normal HDMI signal and splits it into HDMI-eARC for a Sonos Arc and normal HDMI for your TV (the TVs ARC connection could then go the Sonos Amp. .  It for eARC though, so won’t work with the Beam….your client would have to upgrade to Arc.

I don’t know what’s feasible cost wise.  Also maybe not a typical situation.  Sonos may not be the best choice for all this though.  Maybe a soundbar that has the HDMI inputs/outputs you need, with a normal AV amp for the secondary space, would work out better.  You could probably use a Sonos port for streaming music that easy to control as an input to that soundbar.

Thanks for your feedback,

I think we agree that Sonos products are not meant for complex systems with switchers and so on. (Not sure how the conversation came thus far :))

In this case however, i think the application was pretty straight forward - a Beam with a TV which works perfectly well using ARC and a second ‘room’ with a projector and an Amp. Having a projector in place of a TV proves a slight challenge as to where the audio content could be provided given that a projector does not cater for either ARC or optical audio output. 

In view of this, for this specific case, I could take the optical audio signal directly from the source device, however this is not always the case (take the new Apple TV for instance where the optical output was dropped). 

When doing the design, it thought it made sense to cater for an additional HDMI output when splitting the source signal to both TV and projector and used a 3rd output for the AMP. This seemed to make sense until I noticed that this does not work. 

My point was simply that if AMP catered for audio extraction within it, this would have been ideal in such cases where ARC or optical audio might not be as easily available, and avoids having to search for not so common splitters with digital audio output etc.. (whilst keeping in mind previous comments of HDMI input related requests that this might bring with it). 

the other remaining option would be to use the line-in input which as you said is not ideal for TV use possibly resulting in further issues. 

I guess we have to live with what is available and find workarounds for such cases as when a projector is being used. 

K

Agree with all of the above.  I do think that TVs and amp systems will continue ARC/eARC system, and that fits what Sonos is doing, but projectors never will in general.  Projectors just make more sense with AV receivers the send the audio to to speakers before being sent to the TV.  As well, many projector situations are going to use more complex wired speaker setups for a better home theatre experience.  For that reason, Sonos speakers alone are not going to be a good fit for projectors.

Hi Danny, 

I agree with your comments. To that I would only like to add that on the other hand, if Sonos do cater for the possibility to cater for 5.1 systems using Amps, Sub etc.., given that there is the possibility of  such 5.1 systems to be used in conjunction with a projector in the room (in place of a TV), then thought should also be given to such setups. 

 - Maybe with the addition of a separate HDMI audio extractor that caters for ARC on its output and provide this as an optional accessory. I would have included such in this design.

Just a thought ;)

K