Trending Lyricist I

17 years on and still no solution to AV Amp delays!

50 replies
1202 views

As a reasonably techie guy I’ve been helping my neighbour set up his domestic sound system. He has a Sonos driven output in 5 separate rooms. There is a mixture of Sonos 5 speakers, Ports feeding AV amplifiers and an Amp running a pair of speakers. All the rooms are very separate acoustically apart from the lounge, which has a large opening into the kitchen/dinner area. The lounge has a Port feeding a good Sony AV surround sound amplifier and the kitchen has an Amp driving a pair of passive speakers. And so he is suffering from the dreaded ‘stadium echo’ effect when playing music in both the kitchen and lounge. The mechanism is easy to understand; the Sonos kit is all synchronised together but the Sony AV system adds its own delays after the output from the Sonos Port. Because the Sony amp, along with many other AV systems, is designed such that the video output is always lip synced with the TV picture, changing from surround to direct modes does not affect the audio delay. So it is impossible to reduce the Sony Amp audio processing delay to zero to ‘solve’ the problem.

I’ve spent quite some time looking back through the Sonos Community blogs. The earliest reference I’ve found so far to the AV Amp delay problem was 17 years ago

There are many, many other threads along the same topic. The root cause of the problem is well understood and explained but there is always an excuse why a fix can’t be offered. Yes, it would be difficult to implement variable delays that would allow any combination of Sonos and AV amps to work together. But, from the blogs, for most installations you only need to delay a single Sonos output device relative to the one feeding the AV receiver. Following the 80:20 rule that would fix the problem for most people.
Technically it is possible. There might be RAM constraints to how much delay can be introduced. But RAM is cheap. So I do not understand why Sonos is still not offering even a partial fix :-(

This topic has been closed for further comments. You can use the search bar to find a similar topic, or create a new one by clicking Create Topic at the top of the page.

Show previous replies

K

Kumar

Because the Sony amp, along with many other AV systems, is designed such that the video output is always lip synced with the TV picture, changing from surround to direct modes does not affect the audio delay.

There is something about the above that does not seem right, or I am missing something...

Are you suggesting that where using the stereo mode on an AVR to get it to sync with Sonos - and most AVR kit usually does that well if said mode is there as a feature - lip sync is thrown out of whack in a discernible way?

I have not heard of that con till now as the price to be paid for perfect audio sync. I suspect that for lip sync to be affected, more milliseconds are needed than those needed to be eliminated to get rid of the echo.

melvimbe

Similar comment could be made with respect to the SONY A/V. Why does it need to add a delay?

The delay is caused by the software processing needed to generate the 5 or 7 surround sound signals from the original stereo.

If the source is stereo, use the direct/bypass mode on the Sony Amp, to avoid the processing delay on the Sony A/V Amp?

According to the OP, direct mode makes no difference. I find that strange. Perhaps to all the fractions correctly identified by @ratty we should add 'the fraction of A/V amps for which the problem cannot be solved by flipping a switch'?

I read it as direct mode does resolve the issue, but then neighbor can’t have the A/V receiver process the audio to create artificial surround sound channels, as desired. Also seems as though they don’t want to toggle direct mode on and off when switching between TV audio and audio coming from the Port.

That’s all understandable, but I don’t really see that as a problem that Sonos needs to address. While it does appear to only effect a fraction of Sonos customers, those tiny few who would take advantage of it are not any more likely to buy Sonos hardware for it. I mean, those who have this issue aren’t going to buy Sonos HT equipment, because Sonos would have just made it easier not to, and because the desired feature of simulated surround sound isn’t something Sonos offers. Would a customer decide not to go with Sonos for wireless home audio for this reason? Doubtful.

So I would think Sonos would spend more dev effort increasing their functionality in home theatre, rather than easier to use someone elses products. However, I don’t see them ever doing simulated surround sound from stereo input.

Danny

T

TheRealAdrianAuthor

Trending Lyricist I

Similar comment could be made with respect to the SONY A/V. Why does it need to add a delay?

The delay is caused by the software processing needed to generate the 5 or 7 surround sound signals from the original stereo.

If the source is stereo, use the direct/bypass mode on the Sony Amp, to avoid the processing delay on the Sony A/V Amp?

Ok, I’ve been back and worked through all the settings again. Setting the Sonos input on the Sony Amp to Direct mode does reduce the delay to an acceptable level. But you cannot use the surround sound features of the amplifier without re-introducing the delay.

C

craigski

Local Superstar

Similar comment could be made with respect to the SONY A/V. Why does it need to add a delay?

The delay is caused by the software processing needed to generate the 5 or 7 surround sound signals from the original stereo.

If the source is stereo, use the direct/bypass mode on the Sony Amp, to avoid the processing delay on the Sony A/V Amp?

Ok, I’ve been back and worked through all the settings again. Setting the Sonos input on the Sony Amp to Direct mode does reduce the delay to an acceptable level. But you cannot use the surround sound features of the amplifier without re-introducing the delay.

But the source is stereo? Surely you want to reproduce the original sound, and don’t want to mess with it to create a ‘synthetic’ surround sound?

K

Kumar

But the source is stereo? Surely you want to reproduce the original sound, and don’t want to mess with it to create a ‘synthetic’ surround sound?

The delay is introduced by the AVR to deliver these effects, and I don’t think the delay is large enough to create lip sync issues by toggling the stereo button.

To the quoted part, I suspect that even with a stereo source, and using the AVR dsp, the centre channel would still work, and if so, deliver the great benefit of controlling dialogue levels precisely when needed. Of course, the cost of that would be losing sync with Sonos.

One has to choose between these effects and perfect Sonos sync. I don’t see that ever changing.

106rallye

@craigski You state “But you cannot use the surround sound features of the amplifier without re-introducing the delay.” On my old Marantz (if I remember it correctly) the “Direct” setting worked per source. So you would only lose the surround features on the Sonos (that is stereo anyway).

C

craigski

Local Superstar

@craigski You state “But you cannot use the surround sound features of the amplifier without re-introducing the delay.” On my old Marantz (if I remember it correctly) the “Direct” setting worked per source. So you would only lose the surround features on the Sonos (that is stereo anyway).

I didn’t state that, it was OP 😀

K

Kumar

On my old Marantz (if I remember it correctly) the “Direct” setting worked per source. So you would only lose the surround features on the Sonos (that is stereo anyway).

This must have been a convenience feature to avoid having to select direct where the source selected was the Sonos device wired to the AVR. You would, I expect, still get only the two front L/R speakers wired to the Marantz firing in this mode, but in perfect sync with any Sonos speaker in the same group as the Connect/Port wired to the Marantz.

melvimbe

But the source is stereo? Surely you want to reproduce the original sound, and don’t want to mess with it to create a ‘synthetic’ surround sound?

The delay is introduced by the AVR to deliver these effects, and I don’t think the delay is large enough to create lip sync issues by toggling the stereo button.

The source of audio to the AVR in this case is the Port, not TV. There are no lips to sync with.

To the quoted part, I suspect that even with a stereo source, and using the AVR dsp, the centre channel would still work, and if so, deliver the great benefit of controlling dialogue levels precisely when needed. Of course, the cost of that would be losing sync with Sonos.

One has to choose between these effects and perfect Sonos sync. I don’t see that ever changing.

I suppose their could be dialogue, such as podcast or what not streaming through the Port and Sonos network in general, but I really don’t think there would be a need to activate the center channel for these stereo sources.

Danny

T

TheRealAdrianAuthor

Trending Lyricist I

But the source is stereo? Surely you want to reproduce the original sound, and don’t want to mess with it to create a ‘synthetic’ surround sound?

The delay is introduced by the AVR to deliver these effects, and I don’t think the delay is large enough to create lip sync issues by toggling the stereo button.

The source of audio to the AVR in this case is the Port, not TV. There are no lips to sync with.

To the quoted part, I suspect that even with a stereo source, and using the AVR dsp, the centre channel would still work, and if so, deliver the great benefit of controlling dialogue levels precisely when needed. Of course, the cost of that would be losing sync with Sonos.

One has to choose between these effects and perfect Sonos sync. I don’t see that ever changing.

I suppose their could be dialogue, such as podcast or what not streaming through the Port and Sonos network in general, but I really don’t think there would be a need to activate the center channel for these stereo sources.

A surround sound processor operating in a mode such as Meridian’s Trifield put common L & R sounds through the centre speaker, leaving L or R specific sounds on their respective channels. Thus anything centre stage, usually a singer or speaker comes out only on the centre speaker. The effect of this is that vocals are much cleaner and it reduces the criticality of the stereo ‘sweet spot’. Both people sat on the sofa get good vocals! Basically it reduces the audio clutter produced by sending the same sounds to independent L & R speakers. Its why I prefer stereo music played through a surround sound system.

Show more replies

Sign up

Login to the community