External DAC with Connect

Construction guy's point was that people hear differently... Or in the case of many folks, like my wife as an example, they simply don't care how stuff sounds..

Bingo....nothing confrontational about that. Even as an individual your hearing changes over the years too so will your audio preferences.

All I suggest is that people try stuff for themselves, regardless if the results support one position or another. Simply don't take my word, or anyone elses as written in stone.

All I suggest is that people try stuff for themselves, regardless if the results support one position or another. Simply don't take my word, or anyone elses as written in stone.
Agreed. And all we are suggesting is that there is a rational and widely regarded methodology for these trials if one wants to be sure of processing only what one's ears have conveyed. Failing that, be aware of the fact that the brain will also process other inputs than from the ears and if that is ok for you, that is fine too.

Bingo....nothing confrontational about that. Even as an individual your hearing changes over the years too so will your audio preferences.

All I suggest is that people try stuff for themselves, regardless if the results support one position or another. Simply don't take my word, or anyone elses as written in stone.

But don't you realize that when you state one digital cable sounds better than another, it is the equivalent of standing at the dock and saying to the sailors "Don't sail too far, you will fall off the edge!" Nobody with a scintilla of knowledge about engineering will take you seriously, and they don't have to "listen" (or sail too far) to know that you are speaking nonsense. And on top of that, when confronted with these facts, instead of admitting that your opinion makes no scientific sense, and that you may be experiencing a placebo effect or bias, you insult the objectivists ability to hear or the ability of their system to resolve differences.

The simple fact is audiophiles have every opportunity in the world to prove they hear what they hear, and they can't. So why should the objectivists have to accept their observations, when there is no way in h-e-double-hockey-sticks that an audiophile is ever going to accept the fact that what they hear just may be all in their head?

Agreed. And all we are suggesting is that there is a rational and widely regarded methodology for these trials if one wants to be sure of processing only what one's ears have conveyed. Failing that, be aware of the fact that the brain will also process other inputs than from the ears and if that is ok for you, that is fine too.

Sure it is, but it doesn't matter what you or I think, or the processes involved. What matters is the way the end user enjoys his music, regardless if he/she gets there with a Hello Kitty cdp or a Musical fidelity. More so about simply enjoying your music and less about the gear's name plate.

That said though, if those who wish to explore better sound, there is certainly a variety of products to help you on that journey.

Now if we can get past that, then we can move on to helping some who want to make their Sonos sound better.

I've never in the past been a big fan of digital music files. There always seems to be something missing. Call it lack of soul, a more sterile sound, musicality, whatever....just always something missing. Some have a saying....to enjoy digital playback, never listen to good analog. That may hold true for some as I come from the era of vinyl and reel to reels on tube gear. That's always been my personal benchmark, but lets face it folks, who wants to deal with the pops, clicks, record cleaning, tone arms, needles/carts, platter speed and weight. Not really a good fit for todays lifestyle.

When the cdp was introduced, it was like a savior, but still not up to par on good vinyl playback. Now in the digital file age, my benchmark is to just get everything to sound like a good cdp. When I first got a Sonos, I wasn't all that thrilled with the SQ as compared to a good cdp. There was that "something missing". So I rolled a bunch of dacs, cables, to try and make my digital more analog like. The sound of my old Sonic Frontiers gear of my youth still ringing in the back of my head, It became a mission to make my digital sound at least close to analog. Budget constraints, a wife, and certain other parameters were holding me back, still are, but that's how life works. Priorities, with more and more things demanding your wallet. Still, I needed some vestige of tubes in my system or warmer sounding SS. What works for me so far is the Sonos connected into a Cary Xciter dac, into a Pioneer Elite receiver, into a Butler TDB2250 hybrid amp, out to my Legacy Focus 20/20 speakers. The only reason the receiver is in the mix is because my system pulls double duty, HT and 2 channel. This sounds excellent to me, and as good as any 16/44 lossless file has a right to.

That's how I get my sonos to sound great. Should have mentioned it's a Cullen modded one too. Which btw, offers up a cleaner sound over the standard ZP90. Admittedly though, those mods are costly and if I had to do it again, don't think the slight SQ increase is worth the coinage. Friend has the Synchro mesh on his standard Sonos, also sounds real good but again, not cheap. I guess if your going to use the Sonos on your main system for critical listening and not just casual listening or background music, the costs are worth it. To each his own though, we all have different wallets and priorities. I still profess good sound can be had at any level of wallet you carry. Enjoy your tunes guys.

Consider the two statements:
1. Two amplifiers that have the same measured flat frequency/distortion response of the kind that most modern amplifiers exhibit, that are working within designed limits - i.e, without clipping/distorting - cannot be distinguished from each other in a level matched DBT when operating with tone controls or the like not engaged.
2. All amplifiers sound the same.
People, of whom I am one, that support the first statement are often said to be saying the second, which they are not. The second statement is not a short version of the first, and isn't believed to be a true statement by them.
I am curious to know if there is anybody on this forum that disagrees with statement 1.

Whats your point? That two amplifiers ( are we talking power amps or integrated amps?) that measure the same, are both solid state, that are both fundamentally identical will sound the same? I suspect they will.. because it sounds like you're asking if two identical amps will sound identical..

because it sounds like you're asking if two identical amps will sound identical..
Far from it. Pick any two modern amps of different makes at any price point and different power outputs and these will fulfil the terms of statement 1 - provided that they measure alike in having a flat frequency response and close to modern levels of distortion, as most modern amps now do.

But don't you realize that when you state one digital cable sounds better than another, it is the equivalent of standing at the dock and saying to the sailors "Don't sail too far, you will fall off the edge!" Nobody with a scintilla of knowledge about engineering will take you seriously, and they don't have to "listen" (or sail too far) to know that you are speaking nonsense.


And on top of that, when confronted with these facts, instead of admitting that your opinion makes no scientific sense, and that you may be experiencing a placebo effect or bias, you insult the objectivists ability to hear or the ability of their system to resolve differences.

You seem to protest a lot about folks insulting you, maybe it's because you are also insulting to others? Would you speak in the same way and tone if you weren't on an internet forum?

The simple fact is audiophiles have every opportunity in the world to prove they hear what they hear, and they can't. So why should the objectivists have to accept their observations, when there is no way in h-e-double-hockey-sticks that an audiophile is ever going to accept the fact that what they hear just may be all in their head?

That's an absurd statement.. How about Bob Stuart of Meridian I suspect he has a bit more than a scintilla of engineering knowledge.. I'm sure I can find at least a few Hundred more that actually both, Measure and Listen..

You seem to protest a lot about folks insulting you, maybe it's because you are also insulting to others?

That's an absurd statement.. How about Bob Stuart of Meridian I suspect he has a bit more than a scintilla of engineering knowledge.. I'm sure I can find at least a few Hundred more that actually both, Measure and Listen..

You seem to protest a lot about folks insulting you, maybe it's because you are also insulting to others?

Erik, I have explained this hundreds of times, yet you still persist in describing me as not being a fan of "listening". So I am going to ask this nicely. Could you please stop posting that I am against actually listening? You could not be more wrong, and to continue posting this as fact makes me think you are either a bot, or merely parroting the talking points for the audiophile industry.

Here is my stance on actually listening:

In order to actually "listen" to see if there is a difference between two audio components, be they amps, cables, wires, or cocobolo wood feet, one must "listen" during a carefully controlled ABX test. This is the only surefire way to actually "listen" if you wish to know the truth as to whether a difference is actually heard, or it is due to some other effect. Once again I state: I am 100% in favor of listening if one wants to determine there is a difference between two components!! If one is going to state that there is a difference, in order to be taken seriously, one must "listen" without any input besides the actual sound!!!!

You will now forever be called out when accusing me of not wanting to listen. Period.

Can it be a blind a-b test also?
Were one doesn't know which is which?
Does that count?