External DAC with Connect

Well, I must confess a weaknness for shiny knobs and dials. ;)

Good looking kit - what vintage? How many wpc? If in good working condition, my guess is it sounds as good as a current model.

Interestingly that whenever anyone posts that they hear a difference they inevitably get lambasted with the usual stuff.. did you ABX it DBT it XYZ it and so on.. In other words what they hear simply isn't good enough..

But consider the actual recordings we listen to, consider how they're made.. It's engineered, produced and mixed with someones EARS! there's no DBT or ABX'ing in a studio..Bernie Grundman or Bob Ludwig don't sit there doing blind a-b tests.. they use their ears and listen.. in fact they actually use different speakers and equipment to decide how it should sound, how they or the artists decide it should sound.. So the actual recording that we listen to, the sound quality of those recordings of any recording are determined subjectively....Because there is really no other way to make a record, except to listen, to use ones ears..


A problem is that subjectivists so often won't trust their own ears to hear differences, in a situation where sound is the one and only stimulus. Bereft of the sight or knowledge of their Brilliant Pebbles they're in the dark, so to speak.

But consider the actual recordings we listen to, consider how they're made.. It's engineered, produced and mixed with someones EARS! there's no DBT or ABX'ing in a studio..Bernie Grundman or Bob Ludwig don't sit there doing blind a-b tests.. they use their ears and listen.. in fact they actually use different speakers and equipment to decide how it should sound, how they or the artists decide it should sound.. So the actual recording that we listen to, the sound quality of those recordings of any recording are determined subjectively....Because there is really no other way to make a record, except to listen, to use ones ears..
Entirely valid points, but nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not two sounds really are different, or whether it's merely wishful thinking.

Look, if you're happy to spend pots of money on something just because someone told you it would be better that's fine. Scientific arguments have a hard time countering faith. And let's be under no illusion: faith influences perception. Been there, done that.

Personally I'm now happy to be convinced by blind testing that the latest gizmo does not improve things. I can spend my money on something else.

But consider the actual recordings we listen to, consider how they're made.. It's engineered, produced and mixed with someones EARS! there's no DBT or ABX'ing in a studio..Bernie Grundman or Bob Ludwig don't sit there doing blind a-b tests.. they use their ears and listen..

Err, two things:

a) What would they DBT/ABX against?

b) What on earth does the process of mixing and mastering, which is a creative process, have to do with the technical characteristics of hardware?

Cheers,

Keith

My point is that in the final analysis what we hear is what should decide if something sounds good or not.. If one feels that the only way to determine that is by ABX'ing or DBT more power to them, but to constantly deride folks that base their decisions on just listening when the basis for the recordings we listen to are decided the same way, seems rather narrow minded..I mean if I'm changing the position of my speakers and it sounds better do I really need to go back and forth and DBT that they sound better? I don't think so.. If I change my amp and it sounds better, or worse do I need to DBT what I'm hearing? I can understand that measurements and science matters a lot in designing good gear.. but in the end how it sounds is what matters.. and how it sounds to me is really all that matters because I'm not listening with your ears :-)

I mean if I sit down in your living room and listen to your setup and it sounds crappy to me but you think it sounds great, then that's all that matters .. and that determination on sound quality is subjective, it can't be anything else. nor should it be.. If one goes out and buys a system based on reviews or specs and hooks it all up and it sounds mediocre then how does one go about making it sound better.. I'd say by listening to other gear to decide what does sound good to you..My point is it's ones ear that are the final arbitrator.. How you get there really doesn't matter, as long as it sounds good to you.

I mean if I sit down in your living room and listen to your setup and it sounds crappy to me but you think it sounds great, then that's all that matters .. and that determination on sound quality is subjective, it can't be anything else. nor should it be..

So what you are saying is that when someone claims that a particular component (cable, amplifier, DAC, etc.) sounds better to them, that is a purely subjective view that doesn't apply to anyone else.

In other words, those sort of opinions aren't worth a damn?

I would totally agree with you.

The question then becomes, why are people who hold such opinions so keen to share these worthless views, and are so often so insistent that their own subjective views will apply to others? And why they insist that anyone who doesn't share such views must be defective or delusional?

Cheers,

Keith

Entirely valid points, but nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not two sounds really are different, or whether it's merely wishful thinking.


Ratty, surely that's a false dichotomy - and, I think, the fundamental reason why this long-running argument continues.

As Erik's excellent post points out, hearing is an entirely subjective experience. Whether or not "two sounds really are different" is completely moot. (I'd go so far as to say it might be meaningless, depending on what you mean by a sound. If you mean what can be measured by a microphone, it's a fair enough statement but still not directly relevant.) What matters is whether the human listener has a different auditory experience. There are plenty of reasons why that might be the case other than the slightly pejorative "wishful thinking".

The question then becomes, why are people who hold such opinions so keen to share these worthless views, and are so often so insistent that their own subjective views will apply to others? And why they insist that anyone who doesn't share such views must be defective or delusional?


Probably for the same reason that "objectivists" tend to suppress any discussion of effects that can't be reliably detected by DBT/ABX. That is, everyone likes to put forward their point of view and influence others.

By the way, not all people who believe in audible differences that don't satisfy objective criteria insist that their subjective views must be shared by others, or that others are defective or delusional.

Live and let live, is all I'm saying. Put another way, it would be nice not to have potentially interesting discussion suppressed. Surely everyone can put forward their point of view on the basis that that's exactly what it is, not some absolute notion of "the truth"? Otherwise it will all get very boring very quickly.

There are plenty of reasons why that might be the case other than the slightly pejorative "wishful thinking".
I was being colloquial. The formal term would be confirmation bias.

I was being colloquial. The formal term would be confirmation bias.

Sure, but my point stands.