External DAC with Connect

I use the connect mostly for streaming internet radio of various bps, as well as itunes within my house.

My experience with external DACs has been mixed. When I used the highly regarded Rega DAC, I really could not hear a difference. I think that DAC is likely best with high resolution sources.

When I now occasionally use my oppo 105 coax inputs, there is a very significant difference. Surprisingly so. Even so, I rarely use it, because its kind of a pain to have turn the oppo on, and select the right input. If there was a cheap, dedicated DAC that I could be sure would sound as good as the oppo, I would use it for the connect.

My system consists of the oppo105, the sonos connect, a brio R integrated amp, and PSB T2 speakers.

I can identify with this post. I bought an Oppo BDP - 95, it's one of the Sabre DAC models. Everything that I played though the Oppo from a locally connected NAS sounded far, far superior to the Sonos. Recently, I loaded some of the same ALAC material (Kith Jarrett's Sun Bear concerts) that I play through the Sonos to the NAS drive and did an A/B test. Simply unbelievable! The resolution, clarity, bass definition and the sheer musicality of the Oppo just grabbed me by the emotions.

I use Sonos to bring digital music from my upstairs office to my downstairs living room but I do not use it to play music in other locations (they all have their own independent music systems - 7.1 surround in my media room, 2.0 Emotivas in my office etc.).

Last weekend, I bought a MOON MiND 180 digital streamer and replaced the Sonos with it. The MOON, as did the Sonos, plays through an Audiolab M-DAC to a Quad 99 pre and Quad 909 power amps. I wish that you could hear the difference that MOON makes in supplying the Audiolab with an unadulterated digital signal - absolutely incredible.

The Sonos has stood me in good stead for the past five years or so but its time to retire it or move it to my bedroom.

Last weekend, I bought a MOON MiND 180 digital streamer and replaced the Sonos with it. The MOON, as did the Sonos, plays through an Audiolab M-DAC to a Quad 99 pre and Quad 909 power amps. I wish that you could hear the difference that MOON makes in supplying the Audiolab with an unadulterated digital signal - absolutely incredible.

I can't see a reason for this - you aren't talking about DAC quality, but digital signal quality from the Connect compared to the MOON into the M-DAC. I don't know this device - are there any selectable filters employed that may be causing this difference?

I wish that you could hear the difference that MOON makes in supplying the Audiolab with an unadulterated digital signal - absolutely incredible.
This sounds like a classic case of confirmation bias. On Fixed Volume a CONNECT doesn't even touch the samples, so how can it possibly adulterate them.

That leaves jitter, and IIRC this was measured some years back and found to be low. In any case a decent DAC would re-clock.

I can't see a reason for this - you aren't talking about DAC quality, but digital signal quality from the Connect compared to the MOON into the M-DAC. I don't know this device - are there any selectable filters employed that may be causing this difference?

Hi Kumar. The MOON MiND does not include any selectable filters and it does not do much except give you a well though out control app and negotiate moving the signal along from my eternal drive and NAS to the Audiolab DAC (the job that was previously done by the Sonos except that the Sonos first ran the signal through its own DAC). There are a couple of points here. First the MiND is very neutral and you don't "hear" it - that's good. Second removing the Sonos and allowing the signal to pass straight to the Audiolab DAC HAS without doubt changed the output, it's as though a very thin veil has been lifted from the music. Look, it's not that the Sonos (DAC) is bad - I'm not saying that. I have enjoyed it tremendously over the past four years or so. But alternating back and forth between the Sonos and the MOON MiND reveals a difference.

So, I wondered (of course) whether the difference in subjective assessment was caused by "adding" to the signal path by daisy chaining the Sonos to the Audiolab. I took the Audiolab out of the chain and connected the Sonos directly to my preamp. Yup, the thin difference across the audio spectrum was there. The difference is mainly in the higher regions where (for example) in Fleetwood Mac's Rumours, the high-hats and symbols are more distinct.

My wife and I know the Fleetwood album very well (she far, far better than me!). She is a complete non-audiophile but she could nevertheless hear the difference in those highs. I'm not into smoke and mirrors and I am extremely wary of snake oil sellers. I enjoy my system and I rarely introduce changes in to my system. I do not look for differences - but when I hear them, they are there.

Hi Kumar. The MOON MiND does not include any selectable filters and it does not do much except give you a well though out control app and negotiate moving the signal along from my eternal drive and NAS to the Audiolab DAC (the job that was previously done by the Sonos except that the Sonos first ran the signal through its own DAC). There are a couple of points here. First the MiND is very neutral and you don't "hear" it - that's good. Second removing the Sonos and allowing the signal to pass straight to the Audiolab DAC HAS without doubt changed the output, it's as though a very thin veil has been lifted from the music. Look, it's not that the Sonos (DAC) is bad - I'm not saying that. I have enjoyed it tremendously over the past four years or so. But alternating back and forth between the Sonos and the MOON MiND reveals a difference.
Well I don't know about Kumar, but this has me confused. Are you comparing the CONNECT's DAC with the Audiolab's? Sure, there could well be a difference.

But you originally said

The MOON, as did the Sonos, plays through an Audiolab M-DAC to a Quad 99 pre and Quad 909 power amps.

In that case the CONNECT is simply supplying a digital stream which, as pointed out, is bit-perfect to the source when set to 100% or Fixed volume. No DAC, no 'adulteration'.

Sonos first ran the signal through its own DAC

alternating back and forth between the Sonos and the MOON MiND reveals a difference.


Unless there is a level matched DBT tested difference, subjective/sound level based reasons for hearing differences cannot be ruled out.
Enjoy your system, but others may have the veil removed just as effectively via volume control changes.
As to the first part, when you use the digital outs on Connect to feed an external DAC, the Sonos DAC is bypassed, so the first part quoted above is wrong.

No offense to Kumar, but he couldn't be more wrong.
Yes dacs do make a difference and like everything in this world there's a price difference for quality. Many options exist with many different input options as well, all depends on your needs and sound preferences. I'm using a Cary Xciter on my Cullen zp90 with fantastic results. Lots of others I know use W4S dacs, Music Hall, PS Audio, Audio gd, Jolida, the list can go on.

That's if you want your Sonos to sound like a darn good cd player, if not....then read no further. Having a dac with a Sonos is almost a must. Sure you can use the one in your receiver if you like and it will give you some improvement but nothing like stand alone quality dacs do. The dac in the Sonos is OK for casual listening I guess, but is really no better than whats in an entry level receiver. Bottom line is, if you want to kick it up a few notches, add a dac.

No offense to Kumar, but he couldn't be more wrong.

That's if you want your Sonos to sound like a darn good cd player
None taken:).
For my part I am a believer in level matched DBTs ever since one opened my eyes to the fact that my darn good CDP, wired to a DAC that was twice as big, heavy and expensive as it, sounded no different from the Connect - with the same results from a SACDP with digital access to its well specified DAC. This allowed me to reduce equipment footprint, and expand music delivery to more rooms without more net spend, although saving wasn't the primary object of the exercise.
Simpler isn't better by definition, but my experience in this case suggests it to be so here.

None taken:).
For my part I am a believer in level matched DBTs ever since one opened my eyes to the fact that my darn good CDP, wired to a DAC that was twice as big, heavy and expensive as it, sounded no different from the Connect - with the same results from a SACDP with digital access to its well specified DAC. This allowed me to reduce equipment footprint, and expand music delivery to more rooms without more net spend, although saving wasn't the primary object of the exercise.
Simpler isn't better by definition, but my experience in this case suggests it to be so here.

I hear ya man, everyone is different. We all don't hear the same either, different strokes for different folks and all that.

However, I think if you were to be exposed to more of the good gear out there, you may have a different opinion. I think for the average joe, looking to dump his cdp in exchange for streaming will find unless he gets a good dac in the mix, he may be disappointed with the SQ he gets.

Btw...many people use cdp's with digital inputs or USB inputs with great results. Except you won't find digital inputs on your standard BestBuy cdp. The OPPO's are fantastic for this too, especially the 105.

Also, there's more to a dac than a simple dac chip. One other point of concern is the analog output stage and how well that is built. That's why your better cdp's sound better too. Design and what they do with the signal once it enters also varies between dacs. Many different implementations to do the same thing. Choosing a dac is like choosing a cdp, pre amp, amp, speakers, etc, you want one who's sound signature will compliment the rest of your gear, not fight it.

What Sonos has going for it is it's software. The best out there for the money short of a SOOLOS system. Sonos is easy to setup and use so that any wife or electronically challenged person can do it....and it simply works. Have mine for 5 years now with zero hiccups, zero dropouts. The wife would kick me to the curb before the Sonos.