Digital ouput and volume.....

3. Zp80 line out straight to amp and use convenient volume control.

I'd like to go the #3 route, if available.

Ditto. I'm not averse to using a pre-amp in between (because of active amplification in pre-amp from ~1.7V up to 20-30V), setting the ZP volume to 100 at the highest volume I'm likely to use for that listening session, and then using the ZP control just to back down/mute the vol when needed... So I think for me, the solution will be:

ZP80->DAC->Pre-Amp->Power Amp

Setting the ZP80 vol to variable, but leaving it on 100, adjusting the pre-amp volume to the max I'm likely to need, then adjusting volume for that listening session with the ZP80.

How else do y'all do it? Is there *any* difference between variable volume with volume=100% and fixed volume?

Thanks,
J

John-

But what Buzz is saying is that any decrease of the zp volume less than 100% degrades the digital signal your DAC is getting. You, therefore, would want line out fixed or 100% and never change volume on zp- only use volume control on preamp.

This is what I want to avoid, yet have super-convenient instant music on and zp volume control only to mess with and a high current amp to drive really inefficient Totem Acoustic speakers.

I'd rather have digital conversion by Sonos and zp's volume control over outboard dac and two remotes in my hand (and waiting for power up and switching source to blah, blah blah).

To wrap up the first part of this thread:

If you have high impedence speakers that need a high current to drive them effectively, your choices for high-end audio are:


Probably just a typo, but low impedance speakers require more current.

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And a note to correct a possible misconception hinted by other posters:

Simply adding gain does not accomplish much in terms of improving sound.

My comments about the noise and possible frequency response variations created by analog volume controls, while easily measurable, usually result in very subtile changes in the audible result unless one of the units is poorly designed or you are using too much or the wrong cable.

More gain may give a feeling of more power because things get loud with a small rotation of the volume control. Some volume controls have a gentle "taper," the relation between rotation and output, at the low end. This allows more precise control at the lower end and it causes lots of complaints from users who upgrade from a low class unit. The low class units often have a rather abrupt jump in volume at the low end. The usual complaint is that "all I had to do with the old unit was 'crack' the volume control and it blew me out of the room. With the new unit I must turn it up half way." The new unit could have several times the power of the old unit, but there is often a strong psychological connection between small rotation and power. (Perhaps this is an American thing because European units typically have a more gentle taper.)

John-

But what Buzz is saying is that any decrease of the zp volume less than 100% degrades the digital signal your DAC is getting. You, therefore, would want line out fixed or 100% and never change volume on zp- only use volume control on preamp.



For me, the increase in sound quality is worth the outboard dac. I generally (during a given listening session) only turn down the volume or mute... So for me, it's a matter of just being able to have downward/off control. I don't need to be able to crank it up. In other words, I'll set my baseline volume at the pre-amp (no remote for me - I'm a purist), and if someone wants me to engage in a conversation, I'll turn down the Sonos Controller vol. In other words, for me, the only time that I might want to turn down the vol, I'm already distracted anyhow!

This also doesn't take into account what I've heard, that turning down the Sonos volume from 100% to 70% or 80% does not lose any data... so (if that were true - appreciate people who can clear up this myth/fact) you could conceivably set your Sonos vol to 80, then set the pre-amp volume, and then have the headroom to turn up or down the volume...?

Thoughts?

J

[ ... ]
This also doesn't take into account what I've heard, that turning down the Sonos volume from 100% to 70% or 80% does not lose any data... so (if that were true - appreciate people who can clear up this myth/fact) you could conceivably set your Sonos vol to 80, then set the pre-amp volume, and then have the headroom to turn up or down the volume...?


At 100% volume the digital stream is passed through without modification. Bit for Bit, whatever was ripped from the CD will be presented to your DAC.

In order to decrease the volume, since SONOS can't control the follow on equipment, the ZP80 must change the digital code.

Your scheme of setting the normal room volume using the follow on equipment, with the ZP80 set to max, will remove the possibility of any signal loss for regular critical listening. While distracted, you won't care as much about any (small) degredation introduced by the digital volume control.

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It's easy to fuss with this issue. Start by being gross with things. Set the ZP80 for a very low volume, then increase the volume control setting of the follow on equipment. This will give you a feel for what could happen at the worst end of things. (don't forget to use the digital output)

Next, flip things the other way. Set the ZP80 near the top end of its volume control and listen at the same level as before by adjusting the follow on equipment.

Finally, set the ZP80 for maximum, listen for a while, then back off a notch or two using the ZP80's control. Always take care to keep the same listening level in the room. Some listeners will care about the quality difference and some won't.

At this point feel qualified to form your own opinion (it's the only opinion that matters). Just because an "expert" somewhere says that "everyone" can hear the "HUGE" difference, doesn't make it so. In my opinion there is also a difference between perceiving a difference and caring about it.

Simply adding gain does not accomplish much in terms of improving sound.

Buzz, I respectfully and strongly disagree with this statement. Come on over to my house and I'll setup a demo for ya! 😉

Buzz, I respectfully and strongly disagree with this statement. Come on over to my house and I'll setup a demo for ya! ;)

I'm not much fun at one of those parties. Here on the forums I'm docile, but at a showdown party I'm the worst grump that you can imagine. All that I try to do is keep things honest while everyone else is trying to show that their dog is the best.

In my opinion a lot of the "magic" happens while the cables are swaped around and the connections are accidently cleaned.

So many subtile variables can influence the outcome of one of these showdowns. Stereo stores use those silly A/B switches and you always need to hold the switch down for "B". They all know that "B" is a little harder and the tension of holding the button down gives "A" a few points. You are taught to arrange the demo such that the speaker the salesperson wants to sell is on "A". (in my experience even if "A" and "B" are identical, listeners will pick "A" at a 60/40 to 70/30 rate)

Anyway, I'll continue to claim that gain is neutral. Unfortunately, adding a box that introduces more or less gain changes other aspects of the system that could easily result in changing the sound. I'm not saying that you didn't hear and appreciate a difference or that I could or could not do the same, but I don't want to attribute that difference to "gain".

Anyway, I'll continue to claim that gain is neutral. Unfortunately, adding a box that introduces more or less gain changes other aspects of the system that could easily result in changing the sound. I'm not saying that you didn't hear and appreciate a difference or that I could or could not do the same, but I don't want to attribute that difference to "gain".

Buzz, I think I understand what you're saying but just to clarify... It's been shown that even small differences in gain will make the "loudest" component sound best. In particular, there have been double blind comparisons done where the same component was sampled with very small differences in gain (the listeners thinking they where hearing different amps or whatever). The correlation between slightly higher gain and higher preference was good even for very small differences in gain, though I can't recall what differences where involved off the top of my head (I think it was like .5dB or some such thing).

Peter Hunsberger,

Yes, 0.5dB is more than enough level difference to sway a comparison.

In the context of this discussion "gain" is a simple multiplier of the signal. Done properly, changing the gain of a unit will not significantly change the noise, distortion, or frequency response of a system. Many controls marked as "Volume" controls are simple gain controls, while others are loudness controls. Loudness controls fuss with the frequency response in a hopefully constructive way (given how our auditory perception works).

As far as I am concerned, adding another box invalidates earlier comparisons, even if the box claims only to add gain. (gain can be greater or less than unity) With the added box comes added connections and the possibility of an unintended contribution to the outcome.

It is surprisingly difficult to make valid "goodness of sound" comparisons. A very small level difference, a smile or approving grunt from a respected member of the listening panel, the "tension" of operating a volume control higher than you expecIt, or knowing that box xyz costs several times more than box zzz, can easily poison the honesty of the test.

Recent exposure of the listener to loud noises effects the results too. I discourage critical listening if the subject has been in a car, plane, train, or bus in the past few hours.

Just my humble opinion -
My circuit consists of
- NAD C372 Integrated Amp (150 watts)
- April Music Stello DA100 DAC (upsampling to 192Khz)
- Monitor Audio Sliver RS 6 speakers (6ohm)
- HSU Research VTF-2 Mk3 downfiring subwoofer (250 watts)
- ZP80 connected to DAC via TOSLINK optical cable (mid-range Monster THX-certified)
- Buffalo Terastation (1TB) RAID 5 config (connected directly to ZP80)
- 100MB network

Other components:
Polk XM Receiver (Digital Coax to DAC)
Onkyo CD Changer (TOSLINK to DAC)

All audio files encoded in FLAC (Compression Level 😎 with Replay Gain

Best sound for me is using Fixed Volume mode. Was using Variable but noticed distortion at higher volume levels. Not scientific, just my ears telling me something was not quite right. Other sources did not exprience same symptom. Once I switched the ZP80 to fixed volume the results were on par with the other sources. If you are concerned with sound quality over convenience try this type of configuration.