Beyond Level 3 Support?

I’m not aware of level any 4. Is Apple Music your only source of music?

No. This does not happen with Sonos Radio or Amazon. However, all my playlists are there and I have speakers capable of Dolby Atmos. 

Unfortunately, we users don’t have access to your diagnostic data. Where is your Apple Music stored? My first thought, because a couple external music sources play OK, is that there is an access issue, probably local, with Apple Music. This sort of issue leaves tracks in the diagnostics.

Your account of support’s recommendations suggests that they’ve seen evidence of issues on the local network. With respect to rebooting everything SONOS every ten days, I have not done this since 2005 when I first started with SONOS. My whole system is rebooted only when there are power failures or I replace the router. I did have a router, supplied by my ISP, that got its knickers tied in a knot from time to time. This was noted when I searched the Internet for model related issues. I got into the habit of rebooting that router once a month,

Describe your network for us. Router model? Network switches? Network extenders and mesh points? SONOS models? What’s wired to the network?

While troubleshooting never assume that the issue must be [ … ] or cannot be [ … ] or you’ll likely be blindsided, but you should play the percentages. In my opinion, the percentage here is the local network.

EDIT: But in 2005, for a while I did have some very frustrating SONOS issues until I learned how to configure my router. Over the years other users, many now Community regulars, have followed the same path.

Thank you for the detailed questions. I hate to say this, but it all started with the new app and architecture. I have over 100 emails back and forth with level 3 and at least a half dozen phone support with level 3.  
 

My system:

*Beam gen 2 with sub mini

*6 One SL

*Roam gen 1

*Era 300 (1)

Much troubleshooting was done when I had the Netgear Nighthawk RAX54v2.  That was when the Level 3 tech took over my laptop several times changing settings without ever a complete fix. He also had me connect both the Beam and Sub Mini via Ethernet.  
 

A few months ago I went to a mesh system hoping for a better experience, and it is actually worse. Here is that set up:

*TP-Link XE-75 Deco with three routers. Because the new main router did not have enough ports, I had to add a switch: TP-Link TL-SG 605.  I had the Beam and Sub Mini connected to the switch. 
 

What follows is what I have done since the new router. 
 

One tech had me unassociate my Apple Music account and reassociate, but that did not work.  The same tech said all the problems with the new app are completely fixed. Really?
 

Then another support person said that having the Sub Mini connected via Ethernet is not supported, so it is no longer connected to the router.  She is also the tech that insisted on the unplugging every ten days.   She said I have had too long of a run time without resetting the speakers. I said I never heard of that. 
 

The next technician Level One tech had me hardwire one of the Ones via Ethernet to one of the nodes in the mesh system. That seemed to improve speaker drop out but made Apple Music skip more. 
 

The Level 2 tech I talked to last night said there is no reason to unplug every ten days. He also said connecting a speaker to a node in the mesh instead of the main router is unsupported. So, I have unplugged that. The contradictory information is very frustrating. He tried to create a dummy account in Apple Music as he took over my computer, but either he didn’t really know how or couldn’t do it. That test did not happen. He also looked up all my tickets for the past 1.5 years and that is why he said he initiated an investigation. He also wanted me to try unplugging the Beam from the router via Ethernet and run the system entirely wireless. I was frustrated and said I was tired of trying to this and try that, only to have to call back in and start all the work over again. Out of the 1.5 hours, 1.25 was going over everything that has been gone over before. I have never gotten a solution. 
 

BTW, we have tried all 3 channels several times. 
 

Now, I wait again. Levels 1-3 have not provided a solution. However, I have not gotten to Level 3 with my new router, but it was doing the same thing with the old one  

Apple Music is all streaming to Sonos. Several techs have had me try Airplay and I have speaker drops and skipping there too. 
 

I just ran a speed test on my phone and it was 450.

Should a customer need to keep chasing Sonos for a solution?  Really, all I want is a refund on everything. It has been 1.5 years of this. My system clearly does not work as advertised it should. I also did not have issues before the app change, so things are not completely fixed. 
 

I just want Sonos to fix this. I can’t invest more time and frustration. As far as I am concerned, the company has unethical practices in their advertising. For example, one tech said that once you are over 5 speakers, you must have one hardwired. Where is that disclosed before purchase?

Thank you for listening, and any help would be appreciated. 
 

Brian

Speakers were dropping audio this morning again, so I called in with a diagnostic number. The tech said 11 speakers is too many to be grouped at one time.  He also my speakers have been running ten days since I last unplugged them and that I need to do that again to reset the connection. 

Yes, the new App initially created quite a mess. Most of these early issues have been resolved. There are still some operator features that some users feel need adjusting. One aspect of the new controller (call it an “issue” if you like) is that it uses the network differently. The new controller uses more modern protocols that some routers do not support by default.

Your issues seem to affect only Apple Music. Is your Apple Music library stored locally or remote?

Overall, I think that your issue is local. When you check Internet speed most tester Apps report the speed with respect to external sites and are not very useful to diagnose local issues. Along with speed, the testers that I’ve used also report “Latency”. This is the elapsed time (in milliseconds) between a request for data and its delivery. Very tight connections might be in the single digits, More typically it will be in 10-30ms range for external sources. Bad connections might be in the hundreds of milliseconds resulting in SONOS having difficulty keeping audio buffers filled and the controller display and its response to commands will be slow and erratic, but Web browsing and email will seem to be OK.

The ONE SL’s and the BEAM will switch their communication to “SonosNet”, the private SONOS wireless mesh network, when one or more of these units is wired to the network. The ROAM and ERA will not join SonosNet. SonosNet is generally reliable if the wireless units are within range. If SonosNet is struggling there will be clear tracks in the diagnostics.

Note that I’m not an Apple Music or TP LInk user. Maybe one of these users will share something -- particularly the router configuration that they are using.

The last SONOS support person gave the best advice, but I wish he had commented on local connectivity. I can imagine one of your SONOS units having a hardware issue that results in it interfering with network connectivity. Without a view of the diagnostics there will be a lot of “try this or that”.

Do you typically play Apple Music in a Group of players? Does the size of the Group have any effect? The build order of a Group can impact connectivity of the Group because all network traffic for the Group flows through the first member of the Group. If that first unit is struggling, the whole Group will struggle.

UGH!!!

My typing is slow. I missed your last post. I don’t know where the “10 days” is coming from. This thread is the first time I’ve heard of this. I and the regulars don’t do this.
 

If your local network is struggling, large Groups might be a problem -- especially if the Group builder is struggling.

More information you may find useful.

Two very important points….

• Always unplug your Sonos components when making adjustments to your network. When done plug them in 1 X 1 and let them come back. 
• Avoid resetting your speakers as critical information that might be used in a diagnostic will be loss. You also run the risk of losing any saved playlists.

More do’s, don’ts and suggestions….

• There is no reason on God’s green earth wherein you need to unplug your Sonos speakers every Ten (10) days. 
• Don’t wire your speakers if at all possible. What you are doing is creating the SonosNet. The Era 300 will ignore it as it is Wi-Fi only. Sonos in general today prefers Wi-Fi.
• By all means don’t wire a Sonos speaker to a satellite within your mesh.
• Make sure that Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol (DHCP) the ability to assign IP Addresses is only configured for the Main Router in your mesh and not the satellites. If so a Sonos device connecting to a nearby satellite with DHCP capability will be assigned an IP Address and not be seen by your device (with the Sonos App) that is connected to the Main router or vice versa. This will also cause skips with streaming services.
• The TP-Link XE-75 Deco is a tri-band router. You should not separate the bands with different SSID’s (network name). Give them all the same name and let your devices (including Sonos) decide which band they will use.
• If you are still using a router/modem combo box provided by your ISP place the router portion in Bridge Mode (deactivate the router side). Otherwise you are broadcasting two Wi-Fi networks which is problematic not only for Sonos but other devices as well
• Some Routers sold today will automatically default to WPA3 encryption which can cause problems unless all Wi-Fi products are WPA3 compatible. The best Wi-Fi encryption is WPA2/WPA3 which is typically, 100% compatible with all Wi-Fi devices.
• Make sure AirTime Fairness is turned off
• Make sure any type of Band Steering/Smart Connect wherein the router assigns devices to particular bands is turned off
• Make sure the “wireless backhaul” which is the communication used between the main router and the satellites is done over the 6Ghz band. Unless you have newer Apple products the majority of devices will ignore it. Placing devices on the 6Ghz band can degrade the “wireless backhaul” communication between router and satellites. 

EDIT:

• In some instances enabling Quality of Service (QoS) has been known to cause issues. If already enabled try disabling it to see if that makes a difference.
• Full disclosure, I use Wi-Fi 7 with QoS enabled and have no issues. That said enabling QoS may not have a negative effect on your network; but nevertheless try it turned Off if presently engaged.

Thank you for the details AjTrek. 
 

I went through your recommendations as follows:

*Resetting Speakers:  All I have ever done is unplug the speakers. This morning, audio was dropping on a bunch of speakers. I did a diagnostic and called in. Here is what the tech said. First, I am trying to group 11 speakers, and that is too many. I asked him to point me to the Sonos sales page that says 11 speakers will cause audio to drop. He couldn’t. Next he said my speakers have been running for 11 days, so I need to unplug each one. I asked him to point me to the sales page that warns potential customers that they will need to unplug their devices every ten days; he couldn’t. He said I need to call back in when I have more time to be transferred to Level 2. The problem is that I have done that so many times, and I keep getting passed around. 
 

*I have now unwired all the speakers. If that is the solution, I will be even more frustrated because Level 3 wanted my Beam wired, so I had to take down my tv and fish Ethernet cable up through the wall because the Beam is mounted to the tv, and I would not have needed to buy the switch. 
 

*DHCP:  Here is what Google says… The main Deco assigns the IP addresses, and the satellites pass this information along. You should not need to take any additional steps, as Deco mesh systems are designed to manage this automatically. 

*I only have a modem from my ISP. 
 

*I changed to router from WPA2 to WPA 2/WPA 3.

*AirTime Fairness:  Here is what Google says…   “Airtime Fairness is implemented through the Quality of Service (QoS) algorithm on Deco systems. By setting the QoS to "Standard Mode" and removing all device prioritization, you are telling the system not to apply any special rules for managing traffic. This restores a traditional "first-come, first-served" wireless communication approach, which is the same as disabling Airtime Fairness.”   QOS is disable on my router.

*Band Steering: The directions say to disable band steering, I have to disable the 5GHz band which will separate it from the 2.4.  Then it says I have to assign all devices to one of the bands.  This is starting to get complicated when the Sonos is supposed to magically work.  I have about 13 smart plugs in addition to the Sonos, plus laptops, iPads, phones, smart watches, smart scale, etc.  That is why I got this router because it could take more connections than the Netgear Nighthawk.  If I do split the network, I wouldn’t know how to assign nor which band to use for everything, though I know smart plugs use 2.4.  Can you tell me more about this?

*Wireless backhaul is on 6ghz and nothing else right now.

Thank you both Aj and Buzz for your help so far.  
 

Brian

By all means feel free to ignore the suggestions to assign static/reserved IP addresses made by folks with many years of Sonos experience. I did, and fought my system, plagued by random issues and seemingly unable to survive power glitches or firmware updates for many months.

Once I gave up on random non-Sonos recommendations and set the addresses as recommended here my system suddenly started to be usable without the past frustrations and issues.

No user has managed to identify the underlying issue, or at least not made the answer public. I would thi k Sonos has also spent ti e and effort looking into this. Despite many hours of testing and analysis by all concerned it remains s a mystery, much speculation  but nobody is presenting hard data on the cause.

Hello Everyone:

Things have stabilized since I went all wireless after last support Level 2 recommended that. I spoke with another Level 2 today who said to write down details if it happens again. 
 

Thank you for taking the time to read and write detailed troubleshooting suggestions.