Custom Sonos Amp + In-Ceiling Setup for Samsung Frame (No Soundbar) – Need Layout & Phantom Center Feedback

Placing the speakers in the ceiling is probably the least of the issues you may encounter. Meaning yes it can be done: but not that is should be.

The issue is that sound from a TV is supposed to appear as if it’s projecting from the screen out to the listener not from overhead. Creating the Phantom Center channel is going to be a challenge as well. 

TruePlay works best in 3-dimensions for TV audio and music from Sonos stand-alone or stereo pair speakers (i.e. Five, Era 300, Era 100, ArcUltra and similar type Sonos legacy speakers). Sound is calibrated using reflections from the walls, ceiling and floor. Overhead speakers are going to handicap that for two of those dimensions especially for home theater. Music is typically downward firing in overheads and TruePlay will be working under those parameters.

General advice (if no Soundbar is wanted) is to have Sonos In-Wall Speakers by Sonance, Era 100’s on stands or 3rd Party speakers driven by a Sonos Amp flanking the TV. 

It looks like the ceiling in the space is composed of  “drop-in” panels. You could experiment to see if overheads satisfy your listening preference.

Of course all the above is my personal opinion. The opinion of others may differ. 

Edit:

There are no concerns with grouping and latency in a properly configure Sonos system regardless of speaker type regarding music. TV dialogue sent to speakers outside of the room will experience a 75ms delay,

Thank you so much for your valuable input. I should have mentioned that the wood on the front cannot be modified. The house is a heritage property, and I am legally forbidden from altering it.

I hate use of ceiling speakers in a home theater installation, it isn’t acoustically accurate. That being said, and with the caveat that I certainly do not have this setup, here are my responses/feedback.

1. Hard to say. No. However, your mind might get used to it.
2. As well as it can. TruePlay isn’t magic, it can only do as much as it can. If you use the iOS version, rather than Quick TruePlay, you may be able to favor the couch. I wouldn’t count on that, though. 
    
3. The only delays you’ll experience in a Sonos system are when you’re doing one of two things. First is using other speakers, and a Sonos line in as well, so that you’re attempting to combine them both. This can’t ever work, as the line in has a 75ms delay built in to it. Second is when attempting to group a digital input (such as the TV) and rooms that are not ‘bonded’ as part of that TV room (so, excluding surrounds and Subs, if they’re bonded to that digital input device). The system will pay that 75ms delay between the main room (with the digital input) and all ‘grouped’ rooms.  If you’re merely streaming music in all rooms , they’ll all be in sync. So for your ambient music situation, all speakers would be in sync. 
    

I don’t quite understand the use of a Move (a battery powered) speaker in the kitchen, but whatever, 

I understand the desire for a ‘minimalist’ approach. I’m not sure that Sonos matches your needs. If it were me, I’d probably be a little less minimalist in order to satisfy acoustic comfort in that situation. That being said, I’d still love for Sonos to provide a three separate front speakers in a home theater situation, rather than forcing a use of either a faux center channel via the Amp, or a Soundbar solution. Which, I suppose, is part of the reasoning behind my suggestion.

Edit: ​@AjTrek1 types faster. I plead World Cup….

Thanks for the clarification. That being the case I would strongly suggest the following:

• A decor complimentary entertainment center with a Sonos Amp driving 3rd parry speakers of your choice (Bookshelf or floor standing)
• However, the obstacles you will encounter is an HDMI connection to the TV as I assume the HDMI would run overhead in the ceiling and drop to the TV from the rear. A power source for the Amp may also be an obstacle as I see no wall outlets.

You may want to consult a professional installer who may have experience with the restrictive nature of the room. Worst case scenario you go with your original plan to install speakers overhead and hope for the best sound experience possible. If so I’d recommend placing them as close to the front of the TV as possible. Again a professional installer may still be worth consulting.

Thanks for taking the time!
 

The Sonos Five and Move are part of my current setup. Since the image shows a new place I am moving to in a few weeks, I am looking to make the best of what I already own. I am quite comfortable with them and the overall Sonos multi-room experience, so I mentioned them to give you the full context behind my reasoning for this layout. I am still in the market, which means I haven't purchased the Amp or the Sonance speakers yet. The only other option is to stick with the sound coming from the Frame itself, which is pretty weak, to be honest.

I would guess the use of the Move is for flexibility with counter space and portability vs Era 300 or Era 100 requiring a power outlet thus making for a stationary setup. Probably not wanting to place overheads in that area as a personal preference. Also, the Move can still be grouped for music and TV audio (such as the World Cup) assuming it’s not in ear-shot of the TV to draw attention to the 75ms delay. Just my guess 🤔

I'd really reconsider your speaker choice, ceiling works but for me never seems listenable as every loud sound has me looking up, that with a 8 foot ceiling, yours looks a bit higher. Second thing, are the existing panels rigid enough to not vibrate with a speaker mounted in them?

A set of floor standing speakers, selected for small size and matching wood will sound far better and make TV watching much more enjoyable. The positioning flexibility will also allow you to adjust the stereo image sweet spot to your seating position. Trueplay will adjust the frequency response but it cannot fix imaging from poorly located speakers, also having them so high is going to impact that.

Most of the other questions seem to be well answered already.

Looking (nice site, good reviews and product selection) at Crutchfield there are a lot of good options for that space at many price points. Not recommendations, just some examples from  the 700 some listed.

https://www.crutchfield.com/g_12000/Floor-standing-Speakers.html?pg=10

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_749603S3OK/Bowers-Wilkins-603-S3-Oak.html?tp=185

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_991Q7MWA/KEF-Q7-Meta-Walnut.html?tp=185

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_991R7WAL/KEF-R7-Meta-Walnut.html?tp=185

Bookshelf speakers on stands will be less expensive and you may prefer the look.

https://www.crutchfield.com/g_37900/Bookshelf-Speakers.html?tp=186

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_991Q1MWA/KEF-Q1-Meta-Walnut.html?tp=186

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_749606S3CH/Bowers-Wilkins-606-S3-Cherry.html?tp=186

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_336D121IWN/Wharfedale-Diamond-12-1i-Classic-Walnut.html?tp=186

What I'd really like to recommend would be a Pair of Sonos Fives or Era-300s on stands but Sonos doesn't offer a TV audio input for them as front R/L speakers. But giving Sonos another nudge to consider it never hurts. 

In my head, the Sonos Amp can create a 2.1 system: the ceiling speakers play the left and right audio channels (stereo), while the Sub handles the low-end bass. Am I wrong to think this might solve the issue of sound coming from above (provided that the tweeters are properly angled toward the seating position)?

It is my understanding that the Amp will automatically create a phantom center channel to ensure that dialogue sounds clear and centered on the TV.
 

IMHO, every thing you said sounds great, except the “ceiling” aspect. The sound is still coming from overhead and will not sound like it’s coming from the screen. If you were able to hang speakers from the ceiling, lower, closer to the screen and pointed at the seating position, that might sound better. But coming from the ceiling just won’t sound right in my opinion.

Angled tweeters will reduce unwanted reflection from the front wall, improving localization, but if anything will make the height issue more apparent.

The center channel will appear between the speakers, at ceiling level, not from the TV's location.

Ceiling speakers aren't awful, but they are usually the last choice for other than background music, where they are first.

The Amp and a pair of passive speakers at TV level really sound like your best choice for sound, the compromise going to the ceiling is a choice you have to make. There just isn't anything you can do to improve the ceiling option.

If you cannot do anything to the wood are your sure you can cut the ceiling to install speakers?

If you are able to get the speakers installed into the ceiling, you must lower your expectations slightly. The ceiling is not the best place for home theater speakers. For ambient audio they are great.

You will get a phantom center but because of your seating position, don't expect true home theater audio from this setup. 

How are you able to hang your TV if you cannot drill the wood paneling? Could something be fashioned to hang a soundbar in the same way or of the same construction - like some some TV supports allow you to also hang a soundbar on them below the TV?

First post rules out the soundbar option for appearance issues. 

Personally an Arc Ultra, given the room size or even a Beam, on a TV ISO bracket mount would be my choice.

For example: ISO mount, retracts for storage and 5.1 use and extends for Atmos, no holes and hides cables. 

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_051SATM1B/Sanus-WSSATM1-B2.html

Edit to add Beam mount.

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_051WSSBM1/Sanus-WSSBM1-Mount-for-Sonos-Beam-or-Beam-Gen-2-Sound-Bar.html

The issue is that sound from a TV is supposed to appear as if it’s projecting from the screen out to the listener not from overhead. Creating the Phantom Center channel is going to be a challenge as well. 

 

In my head, the Sonos Amp can create a 2.1 system: the ceiling speakers play the left and right audio channels (stereo), while the Sub handles the low-end bass. Am I wrong to think this might solve the issue of sound coming from above (provided that the tweeters are properly angled toward the seating position)?

It is my understanding that the Amp will automatically create a phantom center channel to ensure that dialogue sounds clear and centered on the TV.
 

 

Short answer is “No”. There’s no getting around the sound imbalance of TV audio coming from the ceiling to create a home theater. If the space were a game room wherein you just want to hear the play by play audio of a game I’d say OK..go for it. It would be akin to a radio broadcast.

Suffice it to say that yours is a tough decision if no other options are available to you. I think it’s safe to say that everyone who has responded has given a 👎 to in-ceiling speakers to achieve optimum TV audio. 

I agree with the overall comments that ceiling speakers for TV sound are not optimal, however, if you can find a demo using the AMINA brand of planar speakers I think that you’ll find that they are a different class of product compared to a simple round speaker stuck in the ceiling.