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January 23, 2020

The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

  • January 23, 2020
  • 570 replies
  • 22877 views

I will start this thread with a few caveats:

First, this thread is not for rants. There are plenty here for those, and there is no bar on opening new ones.

Second, the thread is directed for the subset of users that have a large investment in legacy products, and are content to see their Sonos systems as music systems that offer stable streamed music from either a NAS or from the net, and have no expectation of more bells and whistles - just that things continue to work as they are working today. I happen to be in this boat as well, as someone that has three out of six zones running very well on legacy products that I simply cannot afford to jettison until the hardware dies.

Third, this thread is based on facts, some of which have been coming to light only over the last 48 or so hours. It is therefore incomplete to an extent, and may even be wrong in places. Feel free therefore to clarify/correct/add as necessary - and I specifically invite @Ryan S  to do so. But, no rants please - they have a place, but this is not it.

All that said, this is the solution I intend to proceed with and recommend here:

Opt for a legacy system operation in May, that will run legacy and modern products, exactly as these run today; no faffing around with two networks. No more enhancements, but expecting Sonos to honestly fulfil their recent promise of all bug fixes that the legacy products can accommodate. Ditto for what needs to be done to accommodate changes driven by at least the mainstream service providers.

By a happy coincidence, all legacy products have line in jacks. So if something even happens at the streaming service end that cannot be accommodated in legacy products, I am confident of finding some device that can be wired to the line in jacks of these, that will still allow streaming from the culprit service to work including in grouped mode with all other products in the system.

The streaming from the local NAS will not have any issues in this mode, other than hardware failures including that of the NAS, and a key assumption here is that NAS changes will not need a Sonos software update.

Although Sonos has said that new products can be added to such a system, I do not see how this is possible once new products come installed with versions that are beyond the frozen legacy system one. Unless Sonos is not going to sell any new products in future with versions beyond the 2020 legacy one - I doubt that. And once a product comes with the latest version, adding it to a legacy system without rendering legacy products inoperable is going to be tricky because it will involve first separating the one system into two; I also admit to being a little fuzzy with this bit. In my case, this is all moot; I have no need for another zone. As an aside, I am someone therefore that is not of much interest to Sonos!

I also assume that if anyone at any time in the future wanted to jettison legacy products for any reason, all they will need to do is leave all such products powered off, invoke updates and the result will be a Sonos system updated to the day they do the invocation. The concern here for me is different - I need to have an ironclad way of NOT updating my system before I am ready to separate or jettison legacy products, and this needs more insights into how things will work on this front in future.

I am pretty sure that this way ahead will work in my use case and I suggest it will also work for many that are heavily invested in Sonos legacy products, that do not want to write it off or to trade up to new products just to retain all existing functionality.

Yes, it involves losing future enhancements/features, but once we accept that these essentially are music boxes that will keep doing all they do today, that should be an acceptable trade off, I suggest. It is to me, for sure.

So this way, this event will be just a minor inconvenience, and I expect to be able to use all my existing products till the hardware fails.

What this event has convince me though is to now look at/recommend smart systems that are truly modular in the sense that the smart bits can be periodically replaced at low cost, while the core “dumb” electronic hardware can be of such build/after sales support, that it justifies the higher investment in the consequent price, if better sound quality is also needed than what the smart front ends can alone provide. But that's for the future.

 

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    570 replies

    jgatie
    January 24, 2020

     

    Sonos has stated that updates will be blocked automatically if you have a legacy product in your system.   But if you don’t trust that, or want to stay on the Legacy version even when you don’t have any legacy products, then I guess blocking  updates is a good option.

     

     

     

    Actually, the CEO said that legacy software will receive bug fixes and security updates, but no upgrade to new functions.  A huge step, because that means they forked their software, and the man hours needed to maintain both of them means a significant expense increase for Sonos.  An increase they were obviously looking to avoid.

     

    chickentender
    January 24, 2020

     

    Sonos has stated that updates will be blocked automatically if you have a legacy product in your system.   But if you don’t trust that, or want to stay on the Legacy version even when you don’t have any legacy products, then I guess blocking  updates is a good option.

     

     

     

    Actually, the CEO said that legacy software will receive bug fixes and security updates, but no upgrade to new functions.  A huge step, because that means they forked their software, and the man hours needed to maintain both of them means a significant expense increase for Sonos.  An increase they were obviously looking to avoid.

     

    Indeed. And if there are dev hours reallocated to this effort a part of me wonders if that fork, since it have assumably far fewer current and future feature-sets to accommodate, might come back to an earlier version which allowed for more system control from the desktop versions. I’m sure someone here knows the version (and I’m sure some are running it) … I can’t recall; I relented quite a while back and generally stopped paying much attention to what update version added or removed x,y,z, and simply installed anything that came down the pipe with fingers crossed. Nonetheless, if we’re move to a strictly legacy software environment I’d hugely appreciate as much control as possible from the desktop controller as was before. (This is a bit tangential.) 

    exdirtfarmer
    Enthusiast II
    January 24, 2020

     

    Sonos has stated that updates will be blocked automatically if you have a legacy product in your system.   But if you don’t trust that, or want to stay on the Legacy version even when you don’t have any legacy products, then I guess blocking  updates is a good option.

     

     

     

    Actually, the CEO said that legacy software will receive bug fixes and security updates, but no upgrade to new functions.  A huge step, because that means they forked their software, and the man hours needed to maintain both of them means a significant expense increase for Sonos.  An increase they were obviously looking to avoid.

     


    This is fine for me.  A Fork was inevitable and they should have done it at 8.4.  I will take this opportunity to purchase some spare hardware and get it all on the same version and lock it down again.

    Long Live Legacy Sonos! 

    Powered by Firmware/Software 8.4 with Classic Blue Desktop Controller + CR100 + Ipod Dock + Homeseer 3 Sonos UPNP Plugin by dcorsus
    Enthusiast II
    January 24, 2020

    Could you post a link to the reference document for blocking updates? The one link I can find is broken.. Much appreciateed

     

     

    How is blocking Sonos updates a better option than remaining on the Sonos Legacy version?  I’m not seeing the advantage there.

    Danny,

    I was offering some of the knowledge learnt as it may be useful. As others have pointed out it may give comfort knowing they can lock down and see what the legacy version does when released. It may be great.

    A bit like holding off microsoft updates for a week in case they break everything. To some extent the first legacy version will be version 1.0 for some of the code. And these days v1.0 means a beta. I hold off on all OTA updates on my car and let other users test them first, have skipped quite a few entirely.

    The positive aspects are that both Spotify, Amazon Music, and TuneIn are still working well even on a version well over a year old. So the services aren’t changing daily. But would rather see a commitment to maintaining the music services where possible, than just security patches.

    A temporary block on the updates is 5-minutes work, whereas a full lock down takes an age to do as you need images of all old apps etc.

    Offering options is the good thing.

    Hardware obsolescence will be a big issue going forward, there is the potential for mankind to produce limitless e-waste. That is not a good thing.

    Owner since 2006: Legacy System(8.4):3*CR100:1*ZP80:4*ZP100:1*Play 5. - S1 System:1*ZP100:1*Z120. - S2 System:5*Amp:1*Port:2*Five:1*Arc,1*Move:1*Play Bar:1*Subwoofer:5*Play1 : Long live the CR100!
    KumarAuthor
    January 24, 2020

    It is very important for Sonos to put in place and for users to understand all the workflows to make sure that legacy system users do not end up with split systems inadvertently. Perhaps Sonos needs to change its policy of never being able to revert to an earlier version to allow those who still manage to end up with a split system to go back to a legacy system that includes all their products.

    This has all the appearances of another minefield in the making, considering the typical user profile; and I do not mean to be patronising in saying this.

    And Sonos needs to significantly elevate support staffing at all touch points for a long enough time post the transition, I think.

     

    January 24, 2020

    I really don't have a dog in this fight, my system is comfortably locked at 7.4, doing everything I purchased it to do. Although it would be nice to be able to replace units as needed. But here's a novel approach.

    Disclaimer: This is possibly based on faulty assumptions as I haven't even been able to purchase a new product for awhile now and don't know what the current installation of new hardware steps are.

    Basic Assumptions:

    1. You have, will have or want a legacy installation. Legacy being defined as any firmware version       released prior to 2015.
    2. You purchase a new unit because of a hardware failure or expansion - NOT any new features.

    You then plug the new unit into the system.  It takes a look around and presents the following options:

    1. Create a new system. At this point it downloads the latest and greatest firmware with all the bells and whistles and creates its own network installation with no inter-operability with any existing installation.

    2. Join an existing system. At this point, it goes back and takes another look and presents the following options:

       - Your system is running legacy firmware Version x.x, do you want to retain this functionality?  

          If you answer yes, it will state that no future SONOS support will be provided or available.

         Do you want to continue?

          If you answer yes, it goes out to SONOS, downloads and installs firmware Version x.x 

         and joins  the legacy installation.

         If you answer no, (to either question) it will state that this will require that all existing units be

        upgraded to the latest and greatest firmware.  And further states that any units not capable of   

        running the latest and  greatest firmware will no longer function in this installation.

        Then it does its thing.

    This will also require SONOS to make  the software for all legacy controller versions available for download - with the stated warning that SONOS will not provide any support for these versions.

    Other larger and more established hardware vendors provide similar backward compatibility in their own ways, but this keeps SONOS firmware versions out of prying hands which is something that seems important to them.

    Does this make everybody happy? Admittedly, No. But it does retain the full functionality of existing systems at whatever firmware version they are using and provide the ability to expand that installation or replace faulty equipment.  It also provides for SONOS to continue to evolve and provide the latest and greatest features that today's ever evolving technological society seems to want.

    IMNSHO, SONOS's stated position that an installation with mismatched firmwares will be possible is akin to a politician's campaign promise and you're all fools if you believe it.  I'll just go make some more popcorn and lurk from the dark corner of the peanut gallery.  Let the S***storm continue. My apologies for the interruption and my thanks to Kumar for a dose of rational unemotional reality.

    Final thought: If you decide to go legacy, continue to block all updates and only open the door if you need to.  

     

    exdirtfarmer
    Enthusiast II
    January 24, 2020

    @coupster 

    This is the type of software delivery I would love to have.  If they replaced all the data mining code with more flexible software version delivery mechanism, moving forward (or backward) would have been smoother.

    Yeah, apparently we have no clue about how impossible this is to do, support, maintain.

    it is the Achilles Heal of Sonos Longevity.

    Powered by Firmware/Software 8.4 with Classic Blue Desktop Controller + CR100 + Ipod Dock + Homeseer 3 Sonos UPNP Plugin by dcorsus
    January 24, 2020

    exdirtfarmer

    I tried to make my suggestion idiot proof and protect SONOS’s control of its firmware versions.  If you assume that anybody running a stable legacy system is not an idiot, there’s an easy down and dirty way to accomplish the same end result.

    SONOS writes a program/process to locally flash the eprom (or whatever) of a device from a file.

    SONOS creates an archive of all legacy firmwares and corresponding controllers for download.

    The user downloads the appropriate file and flashes their own unit(s) - with the over riding assumption that SONOS is in no way responsible or liable for support, except assuring that the flash process works.

    jgatie
    January 24, 2020

    If you assume that anybody running a stable legacy system is not an idiot.

     

     

    Lol, have you read some of the posts in the announcement area?  :joy:

     

    melvimbe
    January 24, 2020

     

    Sonos has stated that updates will be blocked automatically if you have a legacy product in your system.   But if you don’t trust that, or want to stay on the Legacy version even when you don’t have any legacy products, then I guess blocking  updates is a good option.

     

     

     

    Actually, the CEO said that legacy software will receive bug fixes and security updates, but no upgrade to new functions.  A huge step, because that means they forked their software, and the man hours needed to maintain both of them means a significant expense increase for Sonos.  An increase they were obviously looking to avoid.

     

     

    Right, I’m aware but didn’t mention the posts.  The terminology is a little confusing as Sonos has traditionally referred to changing code from one to another as an ‘update’, and this is what I was referring to.  Bug fixes and security changes is now...something else, at least on a legacy system.

    Danny