The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

Forum|Forum|6 years ago
January 23, 2020
570 replies
22879 views

I will start this thread with a few caveats:

First, this thread is not for rants. There are plenty here for those, and there is no bar on opening new ones.

Second, the thread is directed for the subset of users that have a large investment in legacy products, and are content to see their Sonos systems as music systems that offer stable streamed music from either a NAS or from the net, and have no expectation of more bells and whistles - just that things continue to work as they are working today. I happen to be in this boat as well, as someone that has three out of six zones running very well on legacy products that I simply cannot afford to jettison until the hardware dies.

Third, this thread is based on facts, some of which have been coming to light only over the last 48 or so hours. It is therefore incomplete to an extent, and may even be wrong in places. Feel free therefore to clarify/correct/add as necessary - and I specifically invite @Ryan S to do so. But, no rants please - they have a place, but this is not it.

All that said, this is the solution I intend to proceed with and recommend here:

Opt for a legacy system operation in May, that will run legacy and modern products, exactly as these run today; no faffing around with two networks. No more enhancements, but expecting Sonos to honestly fulfil their recent promise of all bug fixes that the legacy products can accommodate. Ditto for what needs to be done to accommodate changes driven by at least the mainstream service providers.

By a happy coincidence, all legacy products have line in jacks. So if something even happens at the streaming service end that cannot be accommodated in legacy products, I am confident of finding some device that can be wired to the line in jacks of these, that will still allow streaming from the culprit service to work including in grouped mode with all other products in the system.

The streaming from the local NAS will not have any issues in this mode, other than hardware failures including that of the NAS, and a key assumption here is that NAS changes will not need a Sonos software update.

Although Sonos has said that new products can be added to such a system, I do not see how this is possible once new products come installed with versions that are beyond the frozen legacy system one. Unless Sonos is not going to sell any new products in future with versions beyond the 2020 legacy one - I doubt that. And once a product comes with the latest version, adding it to a legacy system without rendering legacy products inoperable is going to be tricky because it will involve first separating the one system into two; I also admit to being a little fuzzy with this bit. In my case, this is all moot; I have no need for another zone. As an aside, I am someone therefore that is not of much interest to Sonos!

I also assume that if anyone at any time in the future wanted to jettison legacy products for any reason, all they will need to do is leave all such products powered off, invoke updates and the result will be a Sonos system updated to the day they do the invocation. The concern here for me is different - I need to have an ironclad way of NOT updating my system before I am ready to separate or jettison legacy products, and this needs more insights into how things will work on this front in future.

I am pretty sure that this way ahead will work in my use case and I suggest it will also work for many that are heavily invested in Sonos legacy products, that do not want to write it off or to trade up to new products just to retain all existing functionality.

Yes, it involves losing future enhancements/features, but once we accept that these essentially are music boxes that will keep doing all they do today, that should be an acceptable trade off, I suggest. It is to me, for sure.

So this way, this event will be just a minor inconvenience, and I expect to be able to use all my existing products till the hardware fails.

What this event has convince me though is to now look at/recommend smart systems that are truly modular in the sense that the smart bits can be periodically replaced at low cost, while the core “dumb” electronic hardware can be of such build/after sales support, that it justifies the higher investment in the consequent price, if better sound quality is also needed than what the smart front ends can alone provide. But that's for the future.

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K

KumarAuthor

@chickentender : I try to keep things simple for myself; I let my budget and what’s left in it decide my choices and there, Amazon/Google usually win comfortably. What that means to me in the long term if I open myself to exploitation - I will cross that bridge when it comes. A bus may run over me tomorrow and make those concerns moot. Yes, they also obsolete things, but the financial impact of that, I can afford because I buy only their cheap stuff. But even there, none of my USD 25 Dots are anywhere close to being obsoleted, my 2015 or so bought Kindle is still going strong.

Yes, they are able to then do targeted advertising aimed at me, but there is a flip side to that as well: I get to see what is probably of interest to me. And for them to sell me goods, I have to buy them - so I still have that power over them.

Your audio controller, placed in a cradle is still going to need a wire from the mains, mine has a pair of wires, that's all. Using a battery powered controller in a cradle does not cut it for me; keeping the battery topped up is task that is already a chore enough for my phone and Kindle. Plus, don’t forget that the Echo also does a lot more than just control+album art for those that are into the voice driven features. For instance, mine also allows my 7 year old granddaughter a way to jump into my bedroom any time from her bedroom in a distant home - and I have also set up things such that no other contact can do that. These devices can be as versatile as you want them to be.

Bottom line, my approach is to get the cheapest thing that will do the job; and these days it has almost become a hobby in every domain to get this done with the cheapest possible option. Which is also the way I will move forward as and when needed for Sonos replacements. And for others looking at similar cheap and simple approaches, Amazon/Google cannot be ignored. Those that have personal reasons for still ignoring them as you do, will do that, which is fine; but that approach may not hold for many more.

chickentender

@chickentender : I try to keep things simple for myself; I let my budget and what’s left in it decide my choices and there, Amazon/Google usually win comfortably. What that means to me in the long term if I open myself to exploitation - I will cross that bridge when it comes. A bus may run over me tomorrow and make those concerns moot. Yes, they also obsolete things, but the financial impact of that, I can afford because I buy only their cheap stuff. But even there, none of my USD 25 Dots are anywhere close to being obsoleted, my 2015 or so bought Kindle is still going strong.

Yes, they are able to then do targeted advertising aimed at me, but there is a flip side to that as well: I get to see what is probably of interest to me. And for them to sell me goods, I have to buy them - so I still have that power over them.

Your audio controller, placed in a cradle is still going to need a wire from the mains, mine has a pair of wires, that's all. Using a battery powered controller in a cradle does not cut it for me; keeping the battery topped up is task that is already a chore enough for my phone and Kindle. Plus, don’t forget that the Echo also does a lot more than just control+album art for those that are into the voice driven features. For instance, mine also allows my 7 year old granddaughter a way to jump into my bedroom any time from her bedroom in a distant home - and I have also set up things such that no other contact can do that. These devices can be as versatile as you want them to be.

Bottom line, my approach is to get the cheapest thing that will do the job; and these days it has almost become a hobby in every domain to get this done with the cheapest possible option. Which is also the way I will move forward as and when needed for Sonos replacements. And for others looking at similar cheap and simple approaches, Amazon/Google cannot be ignored. Those that have personal reasons for still ignoring them as you do, will do that, which is fine; but that approach may not hold for many more.

I completely understand the appeal and convenience, and certainly price.
As far as the controller though, not wired connection needed if it’s the Sonos controller, or PLEX connecting to Sonos. Or simply Airplay. Or for that matter one-off Bluetooth connect. There are so many cheap Bluetooth speakers available, and Airplay becoming more and more supported that honestly the last thing I’d want is the music source tied to a screen tied to the service and tether physically to a speaker and power. (But then again with the Echo show at least its always there and no faffing about with configurations - it’s ready to go - so what do I know).
I *have* looked at the Google Home screen devices (Lenovo a number of times) for use in the kitchen for recipes mainly, but I keep that away from audio. I’m sure it’ll all be tied as one eventually anyhow, but not yet, not for me. I just continue bringing my laptop in in tent-mode. :)
One thing is for sure - there MANY OPTIONS.

K

KumarAuthor

One thing is for sure - there MANY OPTIONS.

Yep. Is it time however to fork this thread into legacy and modern? :joy: See, I know all the jargon...

Legacy for folks like me that want to pursue the simple, no geek qualification required type of approaches and modern, for folks like you?

chickentender

One thing is for sure - there MANY OPTIONS.

Yep. Is it time however to fork this thread into legacy and modern? :joy: See, I know all the jargon...

Legacy for folks like me that want to pursue the simple, no geek qualification required type of approaches and modern, for folks like you?

Well, that delineation could sound something like “Plug N Play” vs. “Some Assembly Required”
I’d say you’ve shown a propensity to easily walk the line. :)

K

KumarAuthor

The more that I think about it, the more I see sense in now forking this thread, handing over the advanced approaches discussions to a new thread, while the simpler approaches that do not need anything more than stereo cables and third party off the shelf boxes to continue on this one, that I will remain associated with.

Anyone here that wishes to start the new thread via a fork to this one may please pm me to arrive at a quick common understanding of how to get this going in a way that allows both threads to remain useful. It will take just one or two back and forth messages to arrive at that, I am sure.

K

KumarAuthor

More interesting stuff from the venting room, a quoted message from Sonos Support:

Hello Michael,
I know the older products can't support audio sampled at 96 KHz with a 24 bit depth. That would be one thing that newer products with more processing power and a larger buffer could handle that the older products can't. I don't know if there are plans for newer products to support high res audio, but that is one example of something the older products can't do that the newer ones could.

I do know that there are new products that will support things the older products just can't. I really can't talk about what.

Very interesting, that subtle shift! Of course, the user that this was sent to has said he has no clue about either the 96 or the 24, and he has no desire to know about it. Which is fine, many have no wish to, they just want the music to play.

For what seems like forever, Sonos has maintained that “there is no science behind Hi Res”, which contains the 96/24 things referred to in the quote. And therefore Sonos will not incorporate that in its speakers.

Many that have exposure to the subject - theoretical and practical - believe that Sonos is correct and have vociferously argued against those that claimed that this lack in Sonos automatically meant that Sonos is not as good in sound quality and can never be as good in that area, compared to modern speakers like Bluesound etc, that do have the capability to play Hi Res music. I have been one of those that have argued in favour of Sonos, and I continue to hold that Sonos and I are correct. There are some threads here on that subject that have acquired legendary status.

However, Sonos has been hammered for many years by the media at large for not being a Hi Res capable speaker. Which says how ignorant the media is, but that isn't the point.

Now the Sonos quote above seems for the first time to be opening a window to the possibility of Hi Res Sonos speakers to be released after the legacy products are left behind in May. No more than a small opening to be sure, just a chink, but till now that window was firmly shut.

Many that supported a no Hi Res Sonos will have egg on their face if that happens; so will I, but won’t be here in a significant way to feel embarrassed :relaxed: And some of these supporters that remain, may well execute some fancy moves to re-align themselves with a Hi Res Sonos. Of course, the Bluesounds of the world may also do stuff like “ Welcome Sonos to the world of Hi Res” and allied nonsense, and indicate that the Sonos stance in the past was just sour grapes.

Why am I speculating on these lines after seeing the Sonos quote that fuelled it? For those that will remain with legacy products to know that the science will not change when Sonos does; believe that even if you see Sonos ads in future that claim different; that science has been rigorously tested and found to be robust.

A

andy_120

Enthusiast II

. I'm not impacted this time, but it is likely I will be next time, and the time after, how many separate systems might need to be managed? When the next products go legacy they can't go down to this Mays codebase without loosing functionality, so Sonos needs to then support 3 versions, original legacy, new legacy and modern. Which means either 3 systems, or the legacy sytem supporting 2 different software versions, something they say they can't do today. There are some big implications to either Sonos or their customer base which they need to answer or things will only get worse

That is an excellent point! I have some thoughts, but this is definitely one for @Ryan S to answer . Whose nerves must be close to getting shot...Sonos needs to think of spelling him every few days for r&r before he is told, as Henry V told his soldiers at Agincourt...once more into the breach my friend...if he is to last even till just May:-)

It’s a great question, but I can’t answer it. We haven’t shared all of the details of how the current legacy process is happening. Let’s get through May first before we start worrying about unannounced things. If you haven’t heard it yet @RedSonos, we are committed to supporting Sonos speakers with software updates for at least five years after we’ve stopped selling them. We’ve got a track record of much longer, as all of the devices going into legacy now were designed at least a decade ago and some of them we stopped selling around 10 years ago. They aren’t getting moved to legacy because they’re old, it’s because their hardware can't keep up with the software demands of the future, all of the modern devices are quite capable of handling those needs.

I’m sorry Ryan,

this is political spin, putting a positive on that you have supported for much longer than 5 years

T

train_nerd

Trending Lyricist I

Thanks for all the thoughts on album art. Art brings the whole experience, just cool to have it dancing around on a large screen. Will explore accordingly. Here, we use MediaMonkey, Gold version to manage our music collection. Will have to check to see what kind of metadata edit capability it has, if any. Obviously want to explore that before, making switch to different collection management software.

https://www.mediamonkey.com/

As I read through all the observations, the TechGuy advice and modularity approach weighs heavily...gotta long term move in that direction. Sonos would be wise to migrate similarly.

No progress yet on the noted earlier plans ahead.

K

KumarAuthor

The more that I think about it, the more I see sense in now forking this thread, handing over the advanced approaches discussions to a new thread, while the simpler approaches that do not need anything more than stereo cables and third party off the shelf boxes to continue on this one, that I will remain associated with.

Anyone here that wishes to start the new thread via a fork to this one may please pm me to arrive at a quick common understanding of how to get this going in a way that allows both threads to remain useful. It will take just one or two back and forth messages to arrive at that, I am sure.

A bump before I call it a day in India, with the bolded bits for attention.

C

Cisume

Enthusiast II

I do know that there are new products that will support things the older products just can't. I really can't talk about what.

Very interesting, that subtle shift! Of course, the user that this was sent to has said he has no clue about either the 96 or the 24, and he has no desire to know about it. Which is fine, many have no wish to, they just want the music to play.

For what seems like forever, Sonos has maintained that “there is no science behind Hi Res”, which contains the 96/24 things referred to in the quote. And therefore Sonos will not incorporate that in its speakers.

Here is a detailed article about the inner workings and the details of ZP80/ZP100

Under the Hood: Sonos brings multi-zone digital audio to life

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