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Lead Maestro
December 7, 2021

"The Beginner’s Guide to Hi-Res Audio"

  • December 7, 2021
  • 92 replies
  • 4122 views

The 13.4.1 S2 update added hi-res (Ultra HD) and Dolby Atmos audio support from Amazon Music Unlimited. With this update, Sonos released this great article about hi-res audio and how you can listen to it on Sonos. It’s a very detailed and well-written article:

https://blog.sonos.com/en-us/hi-res-audio-guide

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92 replies

ratty
February 7, 2022

This is why digital audio with increased sampling rates of 96kHz or even 192kHz would indeed provide a very noticeable benefit as it allows for more precise positioning and depth of the sound sources.

On that basis the difference between Red Book and Hi Res in any blind test should be like ‘night and day’, and yet: https://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6993

The author nails it in this paragraph: “Is I’ve often stated in these articles, it is the production path that establishes the fidelity of the final master. Things like how a track was recorded, what processing was applied during recording and mixing, and how the tracks were ultimately mastered. If all of these things are done with maximizing fidelity as the primary goal, a great track will result.”

Again, 16bit/44.1kHz is completely sufficient in terms of fidelity, as it keeps the quantization noise low enough (-96dB) and reproduces all the audible frequencies (up 22.05kHz).

I should have said, that most current music productions do not take full advantage of the higher spatial resolution you get when using 96kHz sampling frequency and it’s debatable whether a rock/pop production would ever exploit it. With classic music, when done properly, you can definetly hear it.

You should read the methodology in detail. The test samples auditioned by several hundred individuals compared the full resolution originals with RedBook equivalents. The conclusion speaks for itself: “Hi-Res Audio or HD-Audio provides no perceptible fidelity improvement over a standard-resolution CD or file. “

The author of that study originally set up a recording label specifically for the production of high-resolution audio, from recording to delivery. He of all people would surely have wished that Hi Res was detectable. According to his findings it wasn’t.

February 7, 2022

He really made the point why 192kHz sampling frequency is required if you want to accuately reproduce the gun fire of a laser blaster flying across a cinema theatre.   

But is it necessary to render an improvement, audible in a controlled blind listening test, to a 2 channel music recording? 

 

Lyricist III
February 7, 2022

Cite what??

 

Actual evidence for your claim.  

 

If you are refering to my last statement about the audible difference between currently available HD and UltraHD tracks, that is more a conclusion, based on those fundamentals of digital signal porcessing which I tried to briefly summarize before, rather than a claim.

ratty
February 7, 2022

Cite what??

 

Actual evidence for your claim.  

 

If you are refering to my last statement about the audible difference between currently available HD and UltraHD tracks, that is more a conclusion, based on those fundamentals of digital signal porcessing which I tried to briefly summarize before, rather than a claim.

 

How about the claim that “digital audio with increased sampling rates of 96kHz or even 192kHz would indeed provide a very noticeable benefit as it allows for more precise positioning and depth of the sound sources.”

jgatie
February 7, 2022

If you are refering to my last statement about the audible difference between currently available HD and UltraHD tracks, that is more a conclusion, based on those fundamentals of digital signal porcessing which I tried to briefly summarize before, rather than a claim.

 

Your "fundamentals of digital signal processing" are gibberish.  You made some claims that are not backed up by any mathematical or practical evidence.  All evidence points to there being no benefit of either 24 bits or sample rates over 48 kHz in the playback of digital audio.

melvimbe
February 7, 2022

Cite what??

 

Actual evidence for your claim.  

 

If you are refering to my last statement about the audible difference between currently available HD and UltraHD tracks, that is more a conclusion, based on those fundamentals of digital signal porcessing which I tried to briefly summarize before, rather than a claim.

 

You’ve clearly done enough research on the topic to know that what you’ve stated is far from accepted fact. You had to know that if you post a theory like this on a forum with others knowledgeable on the subject, it’s not going to be blindly accepted.

Danny
Lyricist III
February 7, 2022

Cite what??

 

Actual evidence for your claim.  

 

If you are refering to my last statement about the audible difference between currently available HD and UltraHD tracks, that is more a conclusion, based on those fundamentals of digital signal porcessing which I tried to briefly summarize before, rather than a claim.

 

You’ve clearly done enough research on the topic to know that what you’ve stated is far from accepted fact. You had to know that if you post a theory like this on a forum with others knowledgeable on the subject, it’s not going to be blindly accepted.

Shame on me :)

If you are refering to my last statement about the audible difference between currently available HD and UltraHD tracks, that is more a conclusion, based on those fundamentals of digital signal porcessing which I tried to briefly summarize before, rather than a claim.

 

Your "fundamentals of digital signal processing" are gibberish.  You made some claims that are not backed up by any mathematical or practical evidence.  All evidence points to there being no benefit of either 24 bits or sample rates over 48 kHz in the playback of digital audio.

I basically agree with the statement above. And while it is fairly obvious (at least to me) that there is no audible benefit by increasing the bit/sample resolution form 16 to 24, I don’t think there is a similar conclsuion on the increase in sampling rate, yet. For 2D stereo recordings and stationary sound sources there are some studies out there suggesting that there is no audible benefit from increasing the sampling rate above 48kHz. This is where we might just stop the discussion with a simple 16bit/44.1kHz is good enough, period.

OTOH the psychoacoustic propeties around the detection of minimum audible angle and depth of a sound source from low to high frequencies are still very much under investiagtion and not entirely understood. All I was stating is, that when the CD was developed the focus was primarily on accurate reconstruction of the amplitude spectrum while the phase spectrum was of lower importance.  

jgatie
February 7, 2022

Shame on me :)

I basically agree with the statement above. And while it is fairly obvious (at least to me) that there is no audible benefit by increasing the bit/sample resolution form 16 to 24, I don’t think there is a similar conclsuion on the increase in sampling rate, yet. For 2D stereo recordings and stationary sound sources there are some studies out there suggesting that there is no audible benefit from increasing the sampling rate above 48kHz. This is where we might just stop the discussion with a simple 16bit/44.1kHz is good enough, period.

OTOH the psychoacoustic propeties around the detection of minimum audible angle and depth of a sound source from low to high frequencies are still very much under investiagtion and not entirely understood. All I was stating is, that when the CD was developed the focus was primarily on accurate reconstruction of the amplitude spectrum while the phase spectrum was of lower importance.  

 

CIte for the following definitive statement in your original post, please:

While it's true that the human ear (and brain) cannot hear the amplitude of frequencies above, say, 18kHz our two ears can extremely well detect phase differences between frequencies that are much higher! So while we cannot hear those frequencies as tones, we can detect the tiny differences in runtime which it takes those inaudible frequencies to arrive at the left and right ear respectively. In other words, our spatial location capabilities are of much higher resolution than our frequency hearing capabilities. Btw, this effect is heavily used by 3D sound systems like Dolby Atmos or THX.

 

Because in your above quoted post, you seem to say the claim is “still very much under investiagtion (sic) and not entirely understood.”  So which is it, a definitive fact or something to be investigated?

BTW, THX is a quality standard, not a codec like Atmos or DTS.

Lyricist III
February 7, 2022

Shame on me :)

I basically agree with the statement above. And while it is fairly obvious (at least to me) that there is no audible benefit by increasing the bit/sample resolution form 16 to 24, I don’t think there is a similar conclsuion on the increase in sampling rate, yet. For 2D stereo recordings and stationary sound sources there are some studies out there suggesting that there is no audible benefit from increasing the sampling rate above 48kHz. This is where we might just stop the discussion with a simple 16bit/44.1kHz is good enough, period.

OTOH the psychoacoustic propeties around the detection of minimum audible angle and depth of a sound source from low to high frequencies are still very much under investiagtion and not entirely understood. All I was stating is, that when the CD was developed the focus was primarily on accurate reconstruction of the amplitude spectrum while the phase spectrum was of lower importance.  

 

CIte for the following definitive claim in your original post, please:

While it's true that the human ear (and brain) cannot hear the amplitude of frequencies above, say, 18kHz our two ears can extremely well detect phase differences between frequencies that are much higher! So while we cannot hear those frequencies as tones, we can detect the tiny differences in runtime which it takes those inaudible frequencies to arrive at the left and right ear respectively. In other words, our spatial location capabilities are of much higher resolution than our frequency hearing capabilities. Btw, this effect is heavily used by 3D sound systems like Dolby Atmos or THX.

 

Because in your above quoted post, you seem to say the claim is “still very much under investiagtion (sic) and not entirely understood.”  So which is it, a definitive fact or something to be investigated?

Ahh, I see, good catch!

I think most audio and dsp engineers would agree with my statment that 44.1kHz is not enough to fully capture the audible relevant phase properties of a complex music source, such as an orchestra in a concert hall. There are complex dynamic patterns of phase variants and thus interaural phase differences created by musicians moving their instruments as they perfrom which are lost in a signal sampled at 44.1kHz. This I would call an accepted fact.

In a first but not necessarly sufficient step one could increase the sampling rate to capture more of this information. However, psychoaccoustic experiments indicate, for example, the perception of the phase to be non-linear across the spectrum. Also these effects seem to be time-variant and dependent on the source. So increasing the resolution of the phase evenly across the spectrum by increasing the sampling frequency alone might not be sufficient to deliver the desired result. This is something to be investigated.

jgatie
February 7, 2022

Ahh, I see, good catch!

I think most audio and dsp engineers would agree with my statment that 44.1kHz is not enough to fully capture the audible relevant phase properties of a complex music source, such as an orchestra in a concert hall. There are complex dynamic patterns of phase variants and thus interaural phase differences created by musicians moving their instruments as they perfrom which are lost in a signal sampled at 44.1kHz. This I would call an accepted fact.

 

 

Please cite where this is proven as “accepted fact”.  Just stating it does not make it so.  Quite frankly, I’ve been around this stuff for a long time and I’ve never heard an inkling about these supposed phase differences being lost at 44.1 kHz.  

 

In a first but not necessarly sufficient step one could increase the sampling rate to capture more of this information. However, psychoaccoustic experiments indicate, for example, the perception of the phase to be non-linear across the spectrum. Also these effects seem to be time-variant and dependent on the source. So increasing the resolution of the phase evenly across the spectrum by increasing the sampling frequency alone might not be sufficient to deliver the desired result. This is something to be investigated.

 

So your definitive statements in your first post were mere bluster, thinking we’d accept your post at face value?  Sorry, this ain’t the forum for that type of BS.