S2 Hi-Res false promise?

@lonestay and @Jacob_12 . Let’s have some facts.  Here is What Hifi’s response to the initial announcement from Sonos, as an example:

“While Sonos is currently offering very little in the way of specifics around the Sonos S2 platform, it has said that the upgraded audio bandwidth will "enable higher resolution technologies for music and home theatre". We'd be amazed if that didn't mean support for high-resolution audio content from the likes of Qobuz and Tidal (MQA seems likely), as well as Dolby Atmos surround sound capabilities.

We're told that these updates won't arrive immediately, though. In fact the only new feature detailed so far is 'Room Groups'. “

As I have said, Sonos never comment on rumours.  If they were to deny one speculation, then any future failure to deny another rumour would be taken as endorsement.  So, consistently throughout their existence, they have adopted a ‘no comment’ approach. 

If some users wish to weave press speculation into their own wishes and then berate Sonos for failing to meet their unfounded expectations, that is their business.

(Although in fact further HiRes support may come - just don’t expect Sonos to say what and when before it happens.)

I didn’t speculate. I read an article.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/17/21182164/sonos-s2-announced-app-operating-system-high-res-audio-dolby-atmos

I was referring to press speculation, not suggesting you were doing the speculating.

However, an article is not a Sonos promise.  As it happens, The Verge is normally a reliable and balanced source of information.  And it was so here, which is why it says that S2 will have ‘expanded capabilities’ and ‘allow for’ hires to be added.

Sonos promised nothing for day 1 S2, and even the reporting actually seems to have reflected that.  How this got translated into ‘false promises’ by Sonos is something you are better placed to comment on than I.

https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/introducing-s2-new-app-and-os-for-sonos-6841762
“Sonos S2 is a new app and an operating system for compatible devices, which brings support for higher resolution audio, saved groups, support for new Sonos products, and more”

True there’s no day 1 mentioned, but generally when a software update brings support for something it happens on release day. I don’t recall Apple announcing support for any features in an OS update only for it to happen at some point following the release. It comes with the update. This is why I talk about expectation management. I get that Sonos weren’t able to do this on day one, that S2 provides only a framework for these new developments, but this could have been made clearer. 

Sifting through all this hand wringing, my takeaway is that Sonos promised nothing with the release of Sonos S2, and has, so far, fully delivered on all of its promises. Great. Now that we can all accept that it’s not Sonos’s fault for failing to live up to consumers’ expectations, apparently and irresponsibly extrapolated from Sonos’s vague press releases, maybe the conversation can move to more productive subjects. 

What Sonos DID expressly say, in its May 6, 2020 press release, was “[t]his new generation app features support for higher resolution audio technologies...” Of course, this is not true at the moment: S2 “features support” for Dolby Atmos, which is singular, not plural, and (I believe) is only available on the Arc device at the moment. So the statement itself is deceptive and incomplete out of the chute. 

But that aside, with Sonos on record with that vague teaser, it’s completely reasonable for consumers—both those who have historically been faithful investors in the Sonos ecosystem, as well as those curious to see what all the Sonos fuss is about—to expect some sort of expansion on the plans. Does Sonos have an obligation to do that? Not at all. So that observation can be tossed aside as the irrelevant, school-marmish finger wagging that it is. But should Sonos flesh this out? Of course it should. 

I  fall into both categories of Sonos consumer. I’ve been in the Sonos ecosystem for 14 years, and have now had three legacy products made obsolete by Sonos S2. Okay. It’s tech. I expect a certain amount of that. But will I replace them with yet more Sonos, or is this a good time to part ways, jump ship, maybe over to the Roon system, as Roon shows greater flexibility for other manufacturers’ hardware, as well as true hi res capability across the board?
 

But I just moved into a new home, and have a very specific need for new hardware right now. It would be nice to know what Sonos plans, and I think my 14 years of customer loyalty and thousands of dollars of support for the company—especially in its nascent days—deserves more complete information than a vague reference to undefined “higher resolution audio technologies” at some time in the undefined future. It’s quite clearly not “future proofed” technology, so at the moment I’m leaning toward new investment in a more flexible and scalable platform. Roon’s looking pretty appealing.

Roon is also Sonos-compatible, though it downsamples hi res audio to squeeze through the Sonos hardware limitations. So a gradual phase out of Sonos is a likely game plan. I can get new, non-Sonos hardware, switch over to the Roon Core software platform, and continue to use existing Sonos products until I replace them over time. 

And THAT is a strategy from its loyal customer base that should have Sonos product planners quaking as it basically ensures the eventual total obsolescence of Sonos hardware. But if Sonos came out right now and said that it plans AT A MINIMUM 24/96 within 12-18 months? I’d likely stick around and keep buying Sonos. 

It’s not a requirement that Sonos answer these questions. But doing so would be, without even a hint of doubt, the smart thing to do. Because I’m not going to wait while they slowly unpeel that strategy over the next few years, and I doubt I’m alone. I’m also not going to continue buying Sonos hardware just because some audio magazine like HiFi “would be amazed” if support for other formats didn’t materialize. Just because Sonos has no obligation to comment on rumors, can’t be held responsible for the fact that some “users wish to weave press speculation into their own wishes,” arguably they do have some obligation to be accountable and transparent in how they communicate with their customers. Assuming that is, that they would like to retain those customers. Of course, if that assumption is wrong and they’re just running out the clock to eventual obsolescence, then it doesn’t matter. 

I’m also a hobby photographer, and am deep into the Fujifilm X-Series ecosystem. Fuji releases a product road map which tells me at any point in time what the next 18 months is bringing to their product lineup. That practice keeps me in the Fuji system, and without it I’d probably move back to Canon or Nikon.
 

Sonos could learn something from that. Especially as the hi res audio and whole house/multi-zone audio markets get more crowded and customer loyalty in those spaces gets harder to earn and retain.  

The concern for obsolescence is very real already, and I will say why I say so - but I do not think that Hi Res will save the day for Sonos to any great extent. I am also sure that the S2 move was not just for the ability to offer Hi Res.

While I bought into Sonos back in 2011 and all my dozen or so units still work fine, it is now a different market. For instance, for my patio where I had a Connect driven stereo speaker pair, I achieved a very significant elevation in sound quality by adding a mono speaker to extend coverage and a subwoofer for a better, albeit subtle bass presence. I did not need any Sonos products to do this, nor would Hi Res have yielded this elevated quality. Indeed, on a standalone basis the source for the music is a Echo Show 5 wired to the third party stereo amp, with the Connect out of the loop. The Connect only remains there wired to another aux in pair on said amp because I need it to pipe audio from a TV in the patio around the adjacent open plan spaces that have Sonos zones serving them. Were it not for that need, the Connect would be retired. Loyalty to Sonos would not stand in the way.

Hi Res is just a distraction that a very small part of the Sonos target market is bothered about - the market that now finds perfectly good solutions from the Amazons/Googles for a lot lesser spend. 

The Sonos challenge is staying relevant in that market, not staying ahead of niche players like Bluesound and the like that offer Hi Res to differentiate from Sonos in that small market. Winning just there will not help Sonos survive.

The thing is that unlike in the case of computers and even TVs, there has been no real change in sound quality levels in Home Audio after the digital era began with CDs. Quality passive speakers and amps from decades ago, if in good working condition, sound just as good as the latest offerings. What has changed is the music delivery mechanism and in that, Sonos has to now stay abreast of big tech. That is the cause for sleepless nights in Sonos. Or should be, IMO.

“...but I do not think that Hi Res will save the day for Sonos to any great extent...”

You’re probably right. But like the computer or photo equipment industries, once they get someone invested in an ecosystem it seems smart to keep pace with the larger movements in the industry as a whole. Is Apple a hardware company that creates software to run its hardware and keep me buying iMacs and MacBooks? Once Apple stops updating OS X I will go back either to Windows or Linux, and I will not be back. Or is Fuji a lens company that makes camera bodies to support the lens business? Once Fuji stops making bodies with the latest tech to support my eight Fuji lenses, I’m moving to Nikon and I’m not coming back. 

ISTM that if Sonos wants to keep you and me buying its hardware, it has to stay current with the music delivery trends that the rest of the industry is selling. Because once I spend my first $1,200 on a Cambridge Audio integrated amp that can deliver the format I’m after instead of a Sonos Amp, I’m gone and not coming back. OTOH, if Sonos were upfront about its hi res plans I wouldn’t even be looking at that Cambridge Audio integrated amp, and I’d remain happily captive in the Sonos ecosystem for a few more years. There isn't a “fallacy of sunk cost” here, because when I move I have to replace the whole system, which is a significant new cost to undertake. It’s not a simple matter of just not buying the next Sonos sub or sound bar.

The moment you refer to Cambridge Audio, you are no longer part of the Sonos target market - the one that gives them 2 billion dollars in annual sales. Neither am I, but as a ex audiophile, I no longer sneer at Echo Show as a source to obtain excellent sound quality from good downstream kit, let alone sneer at Sonos as audiophiles do. 

Back in the day when you and I bought Sonos, they were probably less than USD 100 million in sales, much of it coming from users of HiFi kit that were able to overcome the audiophile prejudices against digital streaming to buy their Zone players, that made no sound without downstream kit. For such a market, Hi Res may still be of interest. 

To keep growing from USD 2 billion annual sales, they need to win in the Amazon/Google markets and as I see it the only advantage they have at this time are their products for TV. And they need to bring some radical innovation to market to survive  - although I find it hard to imagine in what form or manner that can be done. But for this, they needed to untether themselves from legacy, memory constrained Sonos kit. They have done the easy part - the untethering - via this S1/S2 thing. Now is the hard part, to deliver something really ground breaking, unlike Hi Res. 

I now see them as a good takeover candidate, nothing more on their own. It would be very interesting to see what they come up with that proves me wrong.

As someone that bought the first Fuji X100 version and still has it in its much improved via free upgrades form, it is an interesting analogy, with the usual caveats about analogies. My main system camera is still a Nikon, but most of my pictures these days are taken using my phone. The best camera in the world is the one that is with you when there is a picture to be taken, and my phone is always at hand.

For the Nikon/Canon SLR divisions - comparable more accurately than Fuji to Sonos of today - the problem isn't beating Fuji because that does not do enough for them. It is to survive in their present form in a world of smartphones. Actually, the pro models may continue, but all else, especially the point and shoot side seems to be a candidate for extinction.

Also, here is the thing - I am able to move from Sonos to Amazon/other products with no impact on my present Sonos products because of the magic of line in jacks. I therefore have zero interest in S2, and even if Sonos was to shut down tomorrow, my Sonos kit will still perform as dumb hardware, with the exception of the play 1 units and the one Sonos Sub.

Therefore it is very easy for me to step off the Sonos train, while keeping all Sonos zones functional.

You’re solving problems I don’t have. All I want is to get back to SOME semblance of the sound quality I had before I got married, and had to surrender my tube mono blocks and related kit in order to reclaim house real estate for family. Maybe I’m overly optimistic about hi res—and from your posts I suspect you would agree with that assessment. I just don’t have the energy—or interest really—to go through the hassle of rebuilding that whole type of system again. (And don’t even get me started on the vinyl headache. After hauling a thousand lp’s around for decades—lovingly accumulated during the 70’s and 80’s—I finally decided that life was too short to work that hard for something I supposedly enjoyed but which just caused tons of work.) I’ve been hoping to recover some of that pleasure from hi res without having to replace tons of hardware, or go back in time to when my (unmarried male’s) house was overrun with amps, preamps, power conditioners, turntables, wires, DACs the size of footlockers, medical grade power cables and stupid expensive speaker cables. 

Fortunately I kept my “legacy” speakers. I just need to find the right signal diet for them. I was hoping I could productively repurpose my Sonos stuff but that seems unlikely. 

I don't know what problem you have but Hi Res isn't the answer to any because it does nothing by virtue of more bits/samples. The Hi Res file downsampled to a resolution that Sonos can play today, sounds the same as Hi Res does, in a blind test. Any differences heard are down to a different master used for Hi Res, or bumped up sound levels. Eliminate those variables, and the differences disappear.

Wire a Connect via a stereo amp of adequate power to your legacy speakers, and they will sound like they always did. Or, for that matter, even an Echo Dot in place of the Connect. As long as the same recording is being used for source via either device.