Zp 24/96

The same goes for hi-res having more 'noise' than redbook - if lossless is deemed to have better audio quality than why don't Sonos exhibit the same quality control and only allow lossless files and hi but rate lossy.



The benefits of lossy files are:

1) Ubiquitous formats
2) Small file sizes for use in portable players
3) Appeal to persons who just want the music, they don't care about sound quality.

Now let's see how 24/96 holds up to that:

1) Ubiquitous formats

24/96 is a niche of a niche format. It is a an extremely small subset of lossless, which in itself is niche of digital music as a whole. Even audiophiles are not all sold on them, as seen by the xiph.org article

2) Small file sizes for use in portable players

24/96 files are not smaller, they are much larger.

3) Appeal to persons who just want the music, they don't care about sound quality.

This is the opposite for 24/96, 24/96 appeals to audiophiles who care about sound quality. Which would be great, except the appeal is an illusion if the files are indistiguishable from Redbook. Even worse, they can indeed be inferior to Redbook due to intermodulation distortion.

To sum up, the format is not ubiquitous, it offers no storage savings, and the only claimed benefit is either a myth, or an actual detriment to sound.

Sonos doesn't support 24/anything, never mind 24/96.

The fact is that the music industry is slowly embracing higher resolution formats, particularly in certain areas, such as classical.

More and more music is being sold in higher than 16/48 format (the outer limits of what the Sonos can handle), sometimes exclusively in such a format.

No-one wants to have to spend any of their time downsampling files for playback on old hardware, so the desire to play these files is real, reasonable and has less and less to do with being an audiophile as time goes by. They are simply becoming more widespread.

I, myself, have gathered a small quantity of 24 bit files over time. I don't know whether I'd be able to hear an audible difference between these and their 16 bit cousins, but frankly, nor do I care. I own them, so I want to be able to play them.

The long and short of it is that the old hardware is looking very long in the tooth now. It was great in 2005 and held up well for several years after its launch, but it is looking very much its age now; and not just in the codecs it supports.

Perhaps this is why we have seen Sonos shift focus over the years, going more and more after the lower end of the market, as its capabilities naturally shift towards the lowest common denominator.

Perhaps this is why we have seen Sonos shift focus over the years, going more and more after the lower end of the market, as its capabilities naturally shift towards the lowest common denominator.

Absolutely, the Play 3/5 range are clearly evidence of this and the Playbar due at some point hints at another market.

Over the past year I have not purchased a single audio CD, all have been 24bit downloads. Now its true I can convert them but its a right pain having to maintain two libraries in addition to backups.

Yes hi-res audio is so mainstream, the very few Sonos owners who are screaming for it had to go to other websites and beg non-Sonos owners to sign up here and gin the poll. It's as big as DVD and twice as nice! :rolleyes:

Whatever is said about the merits for/against the support of hi rez, I'm with IanM..

If I have collected some of these files, I want to play them..

So what I've done is simply moved on and spent my hard earned with someone else.

It's as simple as that...

Around 8K now..

4k for a Linn Streamer. And now 4K for a DSD/24-192 capable DAC...

If Sonos fail to support that end of the market, at the end of the day that's Sonos's problem.. I can't do anything about it. Nobody can. They either want my money or they don't. I would have thought there would be high margins in hi rez.. (Audiophiles like me luv to spend dollars on their hobby..often irrationally..)

But heck. What do I know? 🙂

Classic eco101. The dilemma is determining market elasticity. Could SONOS have sold enough $4k high end streamers to generate the income produced by their 2M+ "rooms" sold to date?

And it's also a marketing issue. Would selling fewer $4K units generate the same market momentum as 2M+ less expensive units. Would a "showcase" unit justify its cost by generating market buzz even though it may not be an obvious monetary success. Would SONOS have 6500+ dealers selling $4k products?

There are some technical points too. 24/96 transfers a lot of data. Networks that are currently on the margin, but working very well, would fall off the edge. This would generate bad press.

Passing this back to the marketing side, how much would this bad press cost in terms of lost sales? Which is higher, the lost opportunity cost of of failing to introduce 24/96 units or, the lost sales of lower priced units due to the "obvious failure" of the system.

How many high end companies can boast 2.5M+ units in the field and continued year over year of doubled sales at this level? Sure, a small company can "explode" from 50 units to 100 units a year and this could be a nice income for a very small company. SONOS was built for the large scale from inception. Give SONOS some credit for getting a few things right.

How many high end companies can boast 2.5M+ units in the field and continued year over year of doubled sales at this level?

I think it's fair to attribute Sonos's success (in an extremely competitive market and in challenging economic times) to knowing their market and being laser focussed on their product. They have stated that things like video are a distraction they don't want to get into. I believe the audiophile market is the same.

From my own observations, success in that market is as much about clever branding, shmoozing with the right people, ego massaging, and being aware of and able to adapt to the whims of the market than about producing great products. Even if Sonos produced the best product ever at the perfect price-point, their name is now synonymous with the sort of mass-market products that everyday consumers want (like the Play:3/5 range). Sonos simply don't have the audiophile brand credentials to be given a chance in that market, just like few would take a company like Bose, Sony or Phillips seriously in that space.

I think the only way Sonos could achieve success with an audiophile product is to create a parallel "premium" brand, like Toyota have done with Lexus. I can't see them doing that whilst they are being highly successful by maintaining their focus on the mainstream product range they currently have


I also wonder, if you could survey every Sonos customer, past and present (in the light of over 2.5 Million units sold) about hires audio, would the percentage of those who want it be distinguishable from zero?

Somehow, I doubt it.

Cheers,

Keith

I also wonder, if you could survey every Sonos customer, past and present (in the light of over 2.5 Million units sold) about hires audio, would the percentage of those who want it be distinguishable from zero?


Probably not. But it would be a very loud, very vocal zero. 😉

This debate has gone on now for near on 6 years..

You know what..?

Nobody ever mentions passion anymore..

What about producing a high end zoneplayer purely because of the passion to do it?

All you guys on this forum sound old and tired. You really do.

It's the same ol stuff trotted out year on year..

How about Sonos doing something special on the hirez and hif fi front just "because" ..well because why not?

Even a limited release..

But no. We are forever being dumbed down and told we are stupid for even suggesting change. Instead we are told it can't be done. And instead why not be happy with this new (low res) streaming service or *that* new Chinese made plastic speaker boom box. Or go back and do it via that old NAS box way....

There is no passion anymore..

Would the wonderful USofA reached the moon without passion?

Would the English have let Cook ever sail to the ends of the earth without endeavour?

Without that spark, nobody could be bothered doing anything. No rover missions to MARS and no discovery of Australia.

What ever happened to the idea of just doing it for the challenge?

My friends. It's sad.

You guys spouting on the "same ol same old" just re-inforces my feelings. Right or wrong. But those are my feelings anyway.

See you in another 12 months (to see if anything has changed)

Yawn.

Wap

What about producing a high end zoneplayer purely because of the passion to do it?

..well because why not?

Sonos are a commercial company - they are in business to make money. They've chosen to do this is a certain way, and that doesn't include pandering to the fantasies of audiophiles.

As has previously been mentioned, there are good technical reasons why Sonos probably couldn't make a hi-res version without breaking (or seriously risking) their core system. To take this risk for a reason that most people consider nonsensical (and would generate them little extra revenue) makes no business sense whatsoever.

You guys spouting on the "same ol same old" just re-inforces my feelings.

Sometimes the reason that people consistently say the same thing is because it's true...

By all means go and buy an audiophile system that does everything that Sonos does, as well as Sonos does it (particularly multi-zone sync), that also handles Hi-Res. No-one is stopping you.

If no-one else is making one, perhaps there's a good reason...