Zp 24/96

Can it really be true that Sonos does not support even 22-30 kHz?


Yes, it's true,. but audio frequencies above 22kHz simply cannot be heard by humans... any humans, however golden eared.

Anyone who believes otherwise is suffering from delusions, probably as a result of a huge marketing scam.

In fact, there's good evidence to suggest that the presence of such frequencies are actually detrimental to the audio you can hear.

So, unless you have some dogs or other pets who you want to appreciate those additional frequencies, your complaint is extremely silly.

Cheers,

Keith

Actually it's not silly. It may be the case that sounds above 20kHz are inaudible but sounds at 16kHz to 20kHz are audible and so a recording at 22 kHz may well be a better recording than a CD, even if some of the sounds are inaudible.

Moreover, the reason my complaint is not silly is that I have some recordings which are at 22kHz-31kHz which I would like to listen to on my Sonos. I will be able to hear many of the sounds on these recordings, even if I cannot hear all of them.

Maybe you should think a bit more slowly next time.

Anyway, aren't CDs 44.1 kHz - are you saying that this is too much for the ears to hear? My understanding is that the sampling rate was designed to be twice what can be heard by the human ear (up to around 20-22 kHz). But Sonos is giving me error messages like "Unable to play XXXX - it is encoded at unsupported sample rate 22664 Hz".

Anyway, aren't CDs 44.1 kHz - are you saying that this is too much for the ears to hear? My understanding is that the sampling rate was designed to be twice what can be heard by the human ear (up to around 20-22 kHz). But Sonos is giving me error messages like "Unable to play XXXX - it is encoded at unsupported sample rate 22664 Hz".
Ah, that's not hi-res at all (the topic of this thread). In fact it's low-res.

The problem is that sample rate 22664 Hz is indeed not supported. The actually supported rate is 22050 Hz (22 kHz nominal).

Native support for 44.1kHz sample rates. Additional support for 48kHz, 32kHz, 24kHz, 22kHz, 16kHz, 11kHz, and 8kHz sample rates.

Yes. It is all a bit odd. The files in question were downloaded from Linn as 24/96 files. But the error message from Sonos suggests a different problem.

I would also add that it may be interesting whether or not 24/96 and 24/192 files are any better (or even worse) than CD quality but if anything it is those posts which are off topic.

As I noted above, the bottom line is that people have such music and want to listen to it. Sonos should support as many widely-available formats as possible and they are letting down their customers by stopping them playing their music (which will still sound very nice, regardless of the subtle merits and detractions of the sample rate).

Anyway, aren't CDs 44.1 kHz - are you saying that this is too much for the ears to hear? My understanding is that the sampling rate was designed to be twice what can be heard by the human ear (up to around 20-22 kHz). But Sonos is giving me error messages like "Unable to play XXXX - it is encoded at unsupported sample rate 22664 Hz".

You may be confusing sample rate which is the number of samples per unit of time, with the sound frequency, which is the number of auditory wave cycles per unit of time. If your sample rate is really 22664 Hz, it means your "hi-rez" recording is a non-standard low resolution (approx. half that of standard CD) which is (rightfully) not supported by Sonos.

In this day and age, to own 22664 Hz recordings when 16/44.1 and upconverting software is so prevalent is indeed, quite "silly." Get one of the hundreds of free conversion applications and upconvert your crappy low-res stuff to 16/44.1 and be done with it.

I would also add that it may be interesting whether or not 24/96 and 24/192 files are any better (or even worse) than CD quality but if anything it is those posts which are off topic.


I'm sorry, but in a forum where there is free exchange of ideas, the discussion of whether or not a hoped for enhancement is viable and/or an actual "enhancement" is most certainly not off-topic. First off, Sonos has limited resources and directing these resources towards a useless vanity project which gives no benefits (and actually degrades sound quality in some cases) takes those resources away from other projects we may hope for. Second, in order to implement this feature, the Sonos system could suffer a decrease in reliabilty and/or ease of use, which also affects us all. Third, development and support cost money, and if this feature does not sell, causes reliabilty problems, and uses up more support resources, we who have bought into the Sonos system pay for it via higher prices for new units and/or poorer support.

PS - Sonos has currently listed this enhancement as "Not Planned" at ask.sonos.

Support high resolution FLAC files purchased from HDTracks.com

So being they have no immediate or future plans to implement this, the advice to convert your files to a compatible format becomes all the more applicable.

The files in question were downloaded from Linn as 24/96 files.
It's still an invalid format for Sonos, but it seems that the error message could itself have an error.

Actually it's not silly.

Yes. It is!

Maybe you should think a bit more slowly next time.

I thought about what you posted slowly and, speaking as someone with a Degree in Electronics Engineering, I am qualified to say that what you posted was utter rubbish.

However, there seems to be some confusion over what sample rate (versus audible frequency) you are trying to use, so I will indulge you.

If I assume you are talking about audible frequency, rather than sample rate, and thus you are talking about "hires" (the topic of this thread):

It may be the case that sounds above 20kHz are inaudible but sounds at 16kHz to 20kHz are audible and so a recording at 22 kHz may well be a better recording than a CD, even if some of the sounds are inaudible.

Err, what? I'm sorry, but this is complete nonsense.

This is like saying "if I make a lightbulb that emits invisible (to the human eye) ultra-violet light, that will make the visible light somehow better"

If the audio on two recordings below 20kHz is identical, then any "audio" above 20kHz on one of them isn't going to make it sound better. This is because it's inaudible. It's presence doesn't magically improve the sound of the audible sound (I use quotes for "audio" because it's not audible... it is, in fact, noise). In fact there's some evidence that suggests too much of this sort of high-frequency noise may actually be detrimental to the playback of sub 20kHz audio.

And, in reality, very few people can actually hear up to even 20kHz. Most men over 30 years old have a top audible frequency of around 16-17 kHz or less.

Moreover, the reason my complaint is not silly is that I have some recordings which are at 22kHz-31kHz which I would like to listen to on my Sonos. I will be able to hear many of the sounds on these recordings, even if I cannot hear all of them.

This is where we get to the confusion:

Anyway, aren't CDs 44.1 kHz - are you saying that this is too much for the ears to hear? My understanding is that the sampling rate was designed to be twice what can be heard by the human ear (up to around 20-22 kHz). But Sonos is giving me error messages like "Unable to play XXXX - it is encoded at unsupported sample rate 22664 Hz".

Firstly, you are correct: CD quality is 44.1kHz sample rate. This was chosen because (as you say) it's more than the range of human hearing (plus a bit). This yields an "audible" output frequency range up to about 22.050 kHz. In reality it's a little less than this partly because of some mathematics, and partly for practical reasons (filter design), but also because no normal adult humans can actually hear as far as 22kHz so a small amount of this is inaudible noise (how much depends on the human).

However, if you are getting error messages from Sonos that the rate is 22664Hz, then this is referring to the sampling rate which would give you an audible signal of 11.332kHz or less. This is distinctly lo-fi, and most people would be able to tell that the quality was poor. It would be like listening to your music through a cellphone speaker.

In any case 22.664kHz is a totally non standard sample rate. I doubt there are many players that can play this rate, or at least I doubt there are any commercial consumer ones. As ratty states, if you want to support sample rates around 22kHz, 22.050 kHz is the standard, and Sonos supports it.

If you are saying that you downloaded these as 24/96 files, then I can only guess that the files have been corrupted, or Sonos is misreporting the sample rate. Either way, Sonos won't play them.

Assuming they aren't corrupted and they are actually 24/96 files, there is a way to play them by down-converting them to 16/44.1kHz format using a utility like SOX or one of the many media player/converter tools out there. I will note that by doing this you are really just removing all of the extraneous (and, potentially, damaging) inaudible noise from these files. As long as the conversion is done correctly you shouldn't lose any audio quality by doing this.

I would also add that it may be interesting whether or not 24/96 and 24/192 files are any better (or even worse) than CD quality but if anything it is those posts which are off topic.

As I noted above, the bottom line is that people have such music and want to listen to it. Sonos should support as many widely-available formats as possible and they are letting down their customers by stopping them playing their music (which will still sound very nice, regardless of the subtle merits and detractions of the sample rate).

Given the additional noise on these higher-res files is inaudible and, very likely, detrimental to playback quality, there's no good reason not to convert them to a more standard format (like 16/48 or 16/44.1). In which case, you can then play them and your issue magically goes away.

The argument about wanting to play them as they are doesn't hold. 24/96 is (as far as formats for listening to audio are concerned) a pretty random format to chose. It's one that has got some traction in some circles (particularly amongst companies like Linn who are trying to give a good reason for you to buy their high priced music streaming systems), but it's pretty arbitrary and (unlike 16/44.1) wasn't borne of any specific audio science or engineering.

I could chose a random format just as easily (how about 37.547 kHz sample rate) and that wouldn't work either. IMO expecting this to work this is no sillier than expecting a format like 24/96 to work, once you have separated the facts from the hype.

So my advice is, run a converter app on these to turn them into a more standard audio listening format and start enjoying the music.

Cheers,

Keith