Contributor I

Line-In Latency/Delay Disable PLAY:5

Forum|Forum|10 years ago
May 7, 2016
193 replies
32092 views

Hey Sonos Engineers!

I know this has been touched upon. I previously submitted this request to support and they encouraged me to share here to keep the conversation going.

Is there any chance we could implement a soft switch for line-in audio to bypass the computer for "delay disable" functionality.

I understand and appreciate the reason for the delay.

However, I'm running turntables through a mixer and into the line-in of the PLAY:5. Can't teach my son to mix records with that delay, and since we're set-up in a communal space, my wife is not too keen on bringing out the old mix monitors. Can you dig it?

Can we figure out a way to manually disable the delay on an individual speaker basis?

Otherwise love the gear!

Thanks!

Here's quote from customer support. Hope it isn't too heavy handed or out of school to post:

"I'm not on the development team, but I personally think that it wouldn't be too hard to implement some kind of soft switch to bypass the computer altogether and pipe line-in audio directly to the amplifiers (something like a computer-controlled solid state IC relay network)."

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buzz

There is about a 70ms delay between a SONOS Line-In and output from a player. There is no option to defeat this. Adding an option to do this would require a complete redesign of the software and this would have negative impact on wireless streaming reliability.

SONOS was not designed to be used in live a DJ environment.

Why are you attempting to use SONOS for this application? Is it for wireless connectivity or compact size?

A workaround would be to use headphones with high acoustic isolation to monitor the mixer output.

A

Antoine Bell-BottomsAuthor

Contributor I

Thanks for the reply buzz.

I understand that there is a 70ms delay. I understand that there is no option to defeat this. Just inquiring as to whether this can be an added feature in the future.

As I mentioned in my post, I was informed by someone at SONOS that adding a "delay disable" feature wouldn't necessarily have the negative impact you refer to in your reply, or require a complete redesign. Are you a SONOS engineer? Was this information I received incorrect?

Whatever SONOS may have been designed for, it is marketed primarily for home use. For me, my home use is, at times, a live DJ environment. I have read that the delay is for speaker syncing. Do you know if this is correct? I live in an apartment. In my uneducated opinion, the distance between all the SONOS speakers, in all the different rooms of my home is so small, that no delay (or very, very little) for syncing purposes should be necessary.

I am attempting to use SONOS for this application, because I own, use, and love SONOS speakers for all my other home audio needs, and this additional application (turntables & mixer) is one of the ways I play music in my home, and I would love to be able play mixed, vinyl, line-in audio throughout my home just like I play digital audio from my phone, buuuuuuut without the delay. (So wireless connectivity, is the short answer.)

Thank you for the work around suggestion. You're right. I can just do the mixing in the headphones. But for me, without getting into too much detail, that would limit my interactivity/approach/enjoyment.

The work around I'm considering now, is to feed my entire home's SONOS system the mixer/turntable audio through the line-in on the PLAY:5, AND use hard wired monitors for "mix monitors", and mute the PLAY:5, on account of the delay. Thus having a 70ms sync discrep between the hard wired monitors in the "DJ" room and the speakers in the rest of the home. Not ideal, but a start. We'll see...

Thank you again for the response and the work around suggestion. I know its an ask. I just wanted to put it out there to gauge how big of an ask it really is.

PS - Not for nothing, the attached picture is from the SONOS homepage. Not sure the usage context I'm supposed to infer, but that sure looks like a DJ environment to me.

Stuart_W

World-Class Superstar

Frankly I'm surprised support has offered you the encouragement that they have.

Whilst you usage case is perfectly valid it is, I'm sure you appreciate, a very small number of customers who want to use the product in this way.

In terms of the delay I'm sure Sonos have undertaken a number of tests to find an optimal delay - A delay is required as errors in the stream which could be caused by slightly poor connectivity, wireless interference or poor internet need to be buffered so that they become invisible to the listener.

I don't know if is trivial or not to turn-off the delay for certain cases but I suspect it is highly unlikely that Sonos will make this change.

You're going to need to get those mix monitors out of the loft, can your wife dig it?

Arc + Sub (Gen 1) + 2 x Play 1/ Stereo Play 3s/ Era 100 Stereo in Kitchen, One Stereo in Bedroom, Play 1 stereo pair in Study, Play 1in Bathroom, Sonos Move 2

ratty

I live in an apartment. In my uneducated opinion, the distance between all the SONOS speakers, in all the different rooms of my home is so small, that no delay (or very, very little) for syncing purposes should be necessary.

As Stuart_W notes, this has nothing to do with wireless propagation times which are of course at the speed of light.

Any system which attempts to produce synchronous playback from multiple units connected via an asynchronous communication medium has to do (at least) two things:
- provide sufficient buffering to absorb the variations in packet transit times across the network
- exchange highly accurate timing information between the devices such that final playback can be synchronised

In an apartment, where neighbouring wireless networks are competing for bandwidth, it's all the more important to maintain buffering to prevent the receiving device being starved of data by a burst of interference. Sonos chose 70ms as the optimum solution, presumably sized to cope with packet jitter across a typical multi-hop SonosNet wireless mesh.

Although in theory it might be possible to collapse the delay out of the audio pipeline for a player which is operating Line-In stand-alone, it would likely be a lot of work for an outlier use-case. It would also produce playback discontinuities when other players were grouped or ungrouped.

A

Antoine Bell-BottomsAuthor

Contributor I

Thanks for the reply Stuart_W, and the explanation.

A

Antoine Bell-BottomsAuthor

Contributor I

Thanks for the reply ratty. This is great info.

Nice point about the importance of buffering in a multi network environment. Hadn't thought of that.

Your last sentence... yes. Exactly. That's why I'm foruming. Am I that rare of a case? Maybe. Is this a big deal in terms of tech, let alone potential implementation? You and Stewart_W's replies seem pretty convincing.

I would say however, that big picture, I think this feature request (realistic or not) is related to the mix app integration requests (djay etc.), which is also niche, but there are real numbers there. And like them, I would also like to mix my digital music through app integration.

The overall ask is - consideration of home mixing. Can SONOS make it possible to be able to live mix music (from apps, TTs, whatever) through their wireless speakers?

If the answer relating to SONOS products is ultimately no, while disappointing to me personally, it's all good of course. I understand that I am asking for more from a product that I already purchased, for a use for which it was not originally intended.

Still. The heart wants what the heart wants. And if some other company finds a way, they get my money.

Thanks again for the reply ratty. At the very least, I've got a better idea of how my SONOS system does... what it does.

ratty

I would say however, that big picture, I think this feature request (realistic or not) is related to the mix app integration requests (djay etc.), which is also niche, but there are real numbers there.

Yes, but those numbers are most probably a really tiny fraction of Sonos customers. Remember, we're talking here about the case where a user has a Line-In to a PLAY:5, CONNECT or CONNECT:AMP and wants to simply use it as a local amplifier/speaker. No network communications, no streaming, no multi-room: all the kinds of features which account for Sonos' market position and success.

The opportunity cost of addressing a niche (low latency / DJ mixing) of a niche (stand-alone play) of a niche (Line-In play) would potentially be huge, compared to all the other much more popular feature requests stacked up in Product Development's in-tray.

D

dsal1

Contributor I

I will chime in as a customer who is interested. It seems likely to me that anyone using the product with a line-in could benefit from having a latency free option that doesn't distribute on the network. An obvious advantage is anyone using a playbar with a TV. If you don't have surround or a sub, why not kill the latency? I also want to use a Play 5 as part of my sonos network, and also use it to output the sound of an electronic drum kit where the latency makes that not a possibility.

jgatie

I will chime in as a customer who is interested. It seems likely to me that anyone using the product with a line-in could benefit from having a latency free option that doesn't distribute on the network. An obvious advantage is anyone using a playbar with a TV. If you don't have surround or a sub, why not kill the latency? I also want to use a Play 5 as part of my sonos network, and also use it to output the sound of an electronic drum kit where the latency makes that not a possibility.

There is no perceivable latency on a Playbar using a TV source, either with surround speakers and sub or not. That is why the Playbar uses 5 GHz tech for surrounds and sub, to curb the latency problem. This has nothing to do with the latency of the analog line-in on the Play:5 or Connect units.

D

dsal1

Contributor I

I'm not sure you're right about that. I've read several posts about the Playbar having a delay from the TV source and the instructions suggest setting a video delay on your TV (something not all TV's have). I've got a playbar on a TV for the past several months and I think the audio is a smidge behind (with the delay set to 0 in the app). My understanding of it is that the playbar still has to send the source out to all the other groups and the latency comes in from the time necessary to provide an accurate sync. Of course I'm just regurgitating what I've read some several sources and could be completely wrong.

I also hooked up the playbar to my computer for a test and I noticed a latency between button clicks and noises.

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