Dealing with HDMI ARC issues on Amp and input choices

The dongle (actually an optical to HDMI-ARC converter) will, via your switch, create an HDMI-ARC signal from non-ARC sources. It is not “the same as when I used a splitter to take my normal HDMI out and run one cable to the TV and one to the AMP”. In this respect is is comparable to the Arcana: getting the sound signal from your source to the Amp using the right pins (ARC) on the HDMI connector (so at least partly not a software but a hardware solution). To me it looks like you need this.

I do still think you expect too much from Sonos. Sonos is probaly not “being exclusionary when there’s no need to be” but has made a choice. If it would be easy to cater to the projector crowd, Sonos would do this. Sonos has chosen differently, probably because it is not easy tot do and/or they see no commercial prompt to do so. If you exdpect this, Sonos is maybe not for you.

This is my HDMI switch, which does have an ARC button on it, but it doesn’t generate ARC signals and my TV does not. So if I get the dongle, for it to work, it’d have to create an ARC signal by itself. The reason I’m trying to nail that down is because it’s a $25 product compared to Arcana, at $200.

If Sonos were a cheap or low priced product, I could see that reasoning much more easily, but for the price, being able to take a direct input that is ARC or not (or adding a 2nd HDMI) is not that unreasonable. A digital incoming audio signal is being processed. If HDMI source is coming into the AMP, then there are digital signals there that can be listened to with just the normal HDMI signal, from the same connector. If my switch, under $100, can extract the audio from a normal HDMI signal, it’s rather silly, or even lame, that that the AMP can’t do the same and is limited to ARC.

This isn’t about “catering” to a crowd. It’s about including an option that would make sense in the first place. Again, if a switch for a much lower price can extra audio from normal HDMI, why is it impossible for the AMP to do that?

Honestly, I’ve always thought that comment, on pretty much any product, is a lazy and closed-minded thing to say. But then again, most products and companies, in my experience, are more about finding solutions than saying, to people spending a lot of money, “We have no desire to make things work here.” I’m not trying to start an argument, but it’s a far cry from an attitude of, “How can this product benefit this person.”

I’ve made it quite clear I’d be quite satisfied if the AMP would remember it’s on Line-In and not drop that setting (excuse me - state - I’m expected to keep track of what is a setting and what is a state!) at odd times. (I originally thought it was power flickers, even with a UPS, that led to that state change, but it’s happening even when we don’t have flickers.) I’ve brought up the price quite a bit. For a $700 product to keep track of some settings and states and not others, which makes things confusing for the user, is poor design. How is a user supposed to know, without coming here and being told, the difference between a setting and a state? And how is a user supposed to keep up with what settings or states get dropped at times and which don’t?

Is it acceptable that a product beyond the $20 range can’t maintain a setting from one use to the next? Out of the two options I’m looking at here, the simplest one is just being able to expect an expensive device to keep track of settings once they’re set. I don’t see how such an expectation would make Sonos not be for me.

As for ARC, well, considering that Line In means taking the analog output from the switch and running it to AMP, when ARC will take the same digital signal from the switch and run it to the AMP, so the AMP gets the original audio signal, I don’t see why there’s an issue with me trying to find a way to do that if possible.

You are right about the dongle. It does not make an ARC signal where there isn’t one in the first place. Sorry for the confusion.

I do not disagree with you on the Amp losing the Line-in. This seems to be an (as yet unexplained?) fault, especially when it occurs without even a power failure.

As for HDMI-ARC. Sonos made a few choices when designing their HDMI-enabled soundbars. Most important choice was to work with HDMI-ARC and nothing else. They have stayed with this choice since. They must have had good technical or commercial reasons for this choice in the first place and they have seen no reason for a change on this in the last couple of years, for which they also must have good reasons. You are confronted with one of the disadvantages of this choice: you have no ARC capable TV. You have the absolute right to try and find a solution for this. But you should not blame Sonos for sticking to their original design choice. If there would be any commercial benefit in this, Sonos would have done it. Since they haven’t I do not think you have the right to complain about it just because devices are a bit expensive. You can ask them kindly to change their design, but if they do not do that they must have good reasons for it: it is not a technically or commercially viable option. If it does not work for you then it really is “take it or leave it”. There is nothing no other choice.

TangoMe,

As a quick test have you tried using the PLAYBAR optical to HDMI converter with AMP?

As I understand it @TangoMe  uses a switch that has an optical out but no attached sources that provide ARC. I doubt that this will work.

Historically, HDMI has been a one way video + audio connection connecting sources to a TV or A/V system. Many current TV’s include Apps and there is a need to send audio back to the A/V system. This is the point of HDMI-ARC (Audio Return Channel). The return channel is a separate path and both the TV and A/V system must be able to deal with this. A simple software update cannot add Audio Return Channel support unless the hardware paths were already in place. eARC increases the return audio channel features and bandwidth, supporting more advanced audio features. Again, both ends of the connection need to support this.

Very few HDMI switches deal with the Audio Return Channel or eARC. Since projectors don’t usually include Apps, there is no need for projector Audio Return Channel support. Probably it would be prudent for projectors to include HDMI-ARC support because it would eliminate a lot of user confusion and hassles.

The optical output from HDMI switches, when passed through the SONOS optical adaptor, will appear to be an Audio Return Channel feed to the SONOS ARC or BEAM. SONOS ARC or BEAM will not accept regular HDMI audio feeds, only HDMI-ARC or HDMI-eARC are supported.

At the time when I ordered this switch I had not heard of ARC. (At that point I had not bought new equipment for a few years, knowing I’d be moving in the future, and what I was getting was for two projection systems.) It does support ARC, but, of course, does not generate ARC.

It may or may not be good for projectors to include ARC, but when you look at the names behind nicer projectors, I think what they do will go farther toward defining a standard than what Sonos or other companies making sound or accessory products will do. Arcana does help with that, but, seriously, this is our small system, for just TV watching, not for movies or bigger deals when I have friends over (well, I was doing that - before the pandemic). The projector was something like $1,200 for this system. I can’t justify, even to myself, spending $900 on a sound system for that setup when that doesn’t even include the speakers.

From what I’m hearing, though, unless there is already an ARC signal in the system, the adaptor won’t generate ARC. I’m already quite frustratingly aware that the AMP won’t accept regular HDMI audio - which is the thing I’m most ticked off about. I get that, without ARC, there might be sync issues, but it seems to me the AMP should be able to pull audio out of HDMI. If Sonos is worried about sync issues, then the switch to turn non-ARC HDMI on could be put a few levels down in the menus, so it’s buried and when it’s selected, the app can give a warning that sync might be an issue. (Just like, every time the AMP resets itself to HDMI in, and I have to reset it to Line In, it gives me a warning.)
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Going to your other post, @buzz, regarding the PlayBar, you saw the link to the HDMI switch I'm using. It has analog, HDMI, and TOSLink outputs. For the PlayBar, I’m not using any adaptors, just a cable from the switch to the PlayBar. Generally it’s okay, but there are sync issues sometimes. Not all the time, but at times the audio and video go out of sync. The advisor at Crutchfield (and people at Crutchfield really know their stuff!) has said he has had reports from several people of that issue with the PlayBar and an optical cable. I’ve considered moving the PlayBar, since I could use it in my study, using network audio, and replacing it with an ARC. But once I ran into this problem, and found that the AMP can’t even maintain the Line-In setting, and that there’s no interest in looking at the ARC-less issue with projectors, I’m seriously considering replacing the entire 5.1 system there with non-Sonos. (And, honestly, if I do that, it’s the gateway that might lead to me eventually dropping Sonos all together. Not out of retaliation, but because I’d rather use products from companies that are more responsive and not as narrowly focused with blinders as Sonos seems to be.)

We don’t know the reasons for the choice and we don’t know the reasons for sticking with it. I don’t know Sonos, as a company, well enough, to know WHY they make their decisions. But I don’t entirely trust that such decisions were made to benefit the customers or with the entire market in mind. It seems to me that if one is covering higher end equipment, that would include nice home theater setups. I have a 134” screen. Granted, you can get a 120” LCD screen - for about $130,000, but I think that makes the case that film buffs who want a theater experience are going to go for a projection system. (Unless they’re multi-millionaires!) I’ll grant that big screen home theater is not nearly as big a market as people who may get, say, an 84” LCD smart TV and want a good system, but by ignoring this segment of the market, Sonos is also pretty much sending a message they’re avoiding a higher end market. But when you look at Arcana, at $200, and figure that includes design costs and that, as a single product, it’s a higher cost than if it were integrated into something else (or offered at a discount to customers who need it to make an audio component work), I do seriously question Sonos for excluding non-ARC HDMI. If the non-ARC issue were a rare or outdated one, I’d say I was just unlucky. It’s not.

The reason could be, “We did this, if we change, it looks like we made a mistake,” or, “We have this and we have a large supply of parts, so we’ll stick to it.” 

As to asking them to change their design - I seriously doubt, as a company, they care that much. Which is why I’m seriously considering something else for the nice home theater setup - and, as I said earlier, if I do that, it may very well open the door to just move past Sonos and gradually replace it all. I like having one system for the entire house and barn. It makes it easier for my wife and our relatives that visit to use the sound system when they want to listen to something.

I’ll see if I can get someone on the phone tomorrow about the dongle and see if it does provide HDMI-ARC or just converts whatever it gets as input. (I’m betting it just converts.)

Reading the comments by  @buzz I do think you should ask Sonos about the dongle. For your comments about Sonos and HDMI-ARC vs the projector community I think it is Sonos’ choice to leave that part of the market behind. For whatever reason. You think this is not a wise decision - Sonos does.

And unless people like me don’t stand up and say, “This sucks!” then they’ll never get an idea of whether or not there are people in that market who want Sonos.

Most people just say, “Damn,” and don’t bother to voice their concerns. I learned that with my business: The people who don’t complain are the ones that often go elsewhere and leave you wondering what’s going on. The vocal ones often show trends that aren’t always obvious in other ways.

Since your concerns are about the major technical choice Sonos has made when designing its soundbars they have probably been noted and set aside a long time ago. Yes, Sonos is missing customers as a result of this choice. And when they realise this part of the customer base is big enough they might change it. Since the choice is basic Sonos, I do not think the chances are great they will change this. But I have been surprised before. You do sound a bit like "Sonos should do this because they are expensive and I want them to” though. That's not the way it works.