Problems finding Sonos system when using powerlink adaptor to extend home network

I have a fairly unusual network with a mix of ethernet, wifi, and TP-LINK Powerline. I have ethernet supllying network to various access points around the property and TPLINK powerlines also provide network to other access points. Playbar and SUB connected via ethernet and PLAY:1's and PLAY:5 via Wifi. All access points have the same SSID but with a good channel separation. The PLAY:5 gets moved around a fair bit and hops between access points as needed. Never seem to get any problems with connection from controller app or anything else!

Hello everyone !
I have recently invested in Fiber so before i run off buying lots of equipment to create a home network, I see now that there are some apparent issues related to Sonos.
Like most of you i have music in kitchen , which has proven to be a blind or at least weak spot for WIFI along with my sons room on second floor directly above.
Havent had any real issues streaming music even though WIFI signal for sure is weaker there.
Its not the latest Sonos equipment, ZP120 and CR200 controller, but it all runs great.

With WIFI blind spots in house i got excited to hear about AC Powerline that can be connected with Ethernet cable where needed.
However Sonos dont support this and i am by far any expert in creating home network.
Like most people i am happy if all in household can use their computers, every now and then even stream films from Netflix, and most of all enjoy Sonos music.

The most attractive solution for me is to go with AC Powerline.
I thought that this would be a quick fix to install.
Have i understood this correctly i can not simply connect Sonos with router using its WIFI and Powerline adapters for all other equipment in household ?

Permo,

Your SONOS components are not using WiFi and will continue to work as they have been. Androids can use the SONOS wireless if configured to do so, iPhone/iPad must use WiFi. EoP (Ethernet over Powerline) can work well, but it can also be a mess. SonosNet (the SONOS wireless), Ethernet, and EoP are competing technologies, each eager to embarrass the others. In my experience SonosNet is the most robust and EoP is the least robust, but in a given bad situation any of the three can be the magic bullet. WiFi will generally be the fastest.

In the traditional home WiFi situation a wireless router is hidden away at a convenient location that has the cable feed, fiber, or telephone line. "Convenience" and "hidden" trump any technical considerations. Unfortunately, a wireless router trapped in a basement corner (for example) is a bad choice. Generally, higher locations work better than lower locations, but wall density and range are considerations too. The best solution uses multiple WiFi "access points" wired back to a central router. Of course, the router might also contain an access point too. If you can't wire the additional access points to the router, PoE might help. Multiple wired access points are routinely used in businesses, but they have been too expensive and difficult to manage for home users.

We are beginning to see home access points using technology similar to SonosNet that allows the home user to establish a "mesh" home WiFi network. (SONOS has been doing this since inception in 2005). The new Ubiquiti AmpliFi is one such system. One starts with a central "box", adding access points until the wireless mesh covers the building. You can expect all of the major wireless vendors to jump on this train soon. Yes, the latest all powerful central wireless routers are considerably more effective than their recent predecessors, but a few walls or a marble floor will bring these super power stars to their knees. (Actually they can't offer more raw power because of safety, interference, and legal considerations, but they do use more effective transmitters and receivers)

If you like, you can mix SonosNet and PoE in the same network. Actually, you could plug additional access points into any network jack on a SonosNet system and SonosNet will share its connectivity with the access points. Note, however, SonosNet has been optimized for robust, not speed and eventually you could overwhelm SonosNet with downloads and video streaming. Until very recently I had been using a ZP90 to connect this computer at a hard to wire spot. Over the years I had zero issues, but ultimately I wanted to take full advantage of my FIOS connection speed and pulled the inconvenient wire.

Hi Buzz!
Thanks for your interesting reply. I simply got a new powerful D-link router and all family computers along with Sonos runs just fine using WIFI only. No need for AC Powerline !.
In previous " blind spots " we now get about 35 - 40 Mbit/s so a new router solved all my problems.
Great forum and wishing all the best for everyone.

Glad to hear a more powerful router did it for you Permo. However, our internet provider is Sky and they also provide the router. I don't think it's possible for Sky customers to use their own. Also, we live in an old house with thick walls so we have five TP-Link Wi-Fi extenders around the place. They work great for giving us good internet coverage all round but the only thing that doesn't work is the Sonos App. In fact, it only works when our iPhones and iPads are connected to the main router which in turn is hard wired to the Sonos Bridge. If we try to use the Sonos app while connected to any of the extenders the app cannot find any Sonos speakers.

I'm not going to ask for any advice because you have all been there already and done your best so thanks. I think that Sonos' lack of input on this issue speaks volumes though. Their refusal to do anything about it is actually quite arrogant. Perhaps they don't need customers who do not have the perfect conditions for their products and we are just an annoyance. That's less than I'd expect after having paid top dollar for what I thought was a premium product.

As some people have already pointed out, there are now many more similar products on the market so perhaps Sonos would be wise to at least give the impression that they are trying to find a solution and until they do, a warning notice about this issue on their packaging might stop people like me shelling out a heap of cash for an otherwise great product which doesn't always work if you happen to be in the wrong room.

Come on Sonos, wake up!

Come on Sonos, wake up!
Sonos cannot fix this problem as it's caused by out-of-spec equipment.

As already noted, some Powerline WiFi Points apparently don't forward the broadcasts which Sonos controllers use to discover the players. And this is not some proprietary perversity: a fundamental basis of UPnP is that devices automatically discover each other on the network and exchange information about their respective capabilities.

If you replaced your Powerline adapters with, say, Devolo I believe you'd find they worked.

Never mind. Ratty has it covered.

I came to the forum hoping to find some answers. I may have missed some progress as I've not been through every thread but this one particularly caught my attention. It's disappointing to see an apparent lack of support from Sonos on this issue and a lack of clarity on how their product works.

The underlying issue is that Sonos relies on a mechanism that only reliably works if you are trying to control the player from a device on the same layer 2 network as the Sonos player. For most WiFi routers in a default configuration (some can be changed) it means you need to be connected to the same WiFi router as the player and using the same SSID.

If the Sonos player is connected to a different WiFi network to your device you need to be very lucky for it to work. This is because many WiFi access points will not offer a layer-2 passthrough service and will try to "route" your traffic instead using a mechanism called NAT. If either WiFi access point is in routing mode, this breaks the Sonos discovery mechanism and you are out of luck. Worse, even if they are in layer-2 "switch / bridge" mode, they may not forward the Broadcast traffic and this will break the Sonos discovery mechanism.


Workaround:
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Most powerline adaptors that have a fixed Ethernet network port will offer layer 2 connectivity and are as good as connecting a cable directly between two points. They work well and can be reliably used to place the Sonos player a long distance from your main home router, just like using a long cable. This should solve most peoples problems on this thread.

This setup will work in most cases:
[ISP / Internet] [Home Router] [Powerline Ethernet adaptor] [Powerline Ethernet adaptor] [Sonos player]
+
[ISP / Internet] [Home Router] [Device with Sonos App]

These connectivity problems are not related to how strong the WiFi or PowerLine signal is in your home, how old your wiring is etc. That can cause issues, but not this one.

Permanent fix
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There are a number of ways Sonos could modify their software to allow layer 3 communication between the controller app and the player and fix this problem for customers. One example would be a cloud based reverse VPN solution. Let's see if they rise to the challenge.

Sorry, but I think there's a bit of misinformation here.

a lack of clarity on how their product works.
What lack of clarity?

The underlying issue is that Sonos relies on a mechanism that only reliably works if you are trying to control the player from a device on the same layer 2 network as the Sonos player.

Incorrect. A whole variety of layer 2 technologies can co-exist in the same network. What however is the case is that Sonos controllers and players must all share the same IP subnet and broadcast domain. This is a fundamental requirement for UPnP in general, not just Sonos.

For most WiFi routers in a default configuration (some can be changed) it means you need to be connected to the same WiFi router as the player and using the same SSID.

Incorrect. A single IP subnet can extend over multiple media, including wired infrastructure, multiple WiFi APs with different SSIDs, Ethernet-over-Powerline, MOCA, SonosNet and -- if it were able to carry IP packets -- a damp piece of string. Again, the requirement is that there's simply a common broadcast domain.

If the Sonos player is connected to a different WiFi network to your device you need to be very lucky for it to work.

Incorrect. However some routers can be reluctant to forward broadcasts between WiFi segments, breaking the above rule. That's a router issue.

This is because many WiFi access points will not offer a layer-2 passthrough service and will try to "route" your traffic instead using a mechanism called NAT.

Such a device is not a 'WiFi access point". It's a router, and it's commonly understood (or at least it should be) that a router breaks a network into multiple subnets.

If either WiFi access point is in routing mode, this breaks the Sonos discovery mechanism and you are out of luck.

In that case it's a router.

Worse, even if they are in layer-2 "switch / bridge" mode, they may not forward the Broadcast traffic and this will break the Sonos discovery mechanism.

Indeed. And known culprits pop up from time to time on these boards. Some are even listed in https://sonos.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/42.

These connectivity problems are not related to how strong the WiFi or PowerLine signal is in your home, how old your wiring is etc. That can cause issues, but not this one.

Ethernet-over-Powerline does cause problems, for all the usually accepted reasons. Bad wiring, lengthy runs, a cable route which crosses a consumer unit, nearby appliances killing the RF carrier or injecting interference. All of these reduce bandwidth and contribute to latency, which often varies wildly. This can upset traffic flows and in some cases contribute to topology instability. It's for these reasons that Sonos won't officially support EoP.

Oh, and some EoP devices can indeed block certain types of traffic.

There are a number of ways Sonos could modify their software to allow layer 3 communication between the controller app and the player and fix this problem for customers. One example would be a cloud based reverse VPN solution. Let's see if they rise to the challenge.

Whether or not Sonos opt for a cloud-based control option, UPnP is based on a single IP subnet. For most customers "this problem" doesn't exist.

An unhelpful and pedantic response that just muddies the waters. This is exactly why this thread is so damn long and unhelpful.

Let's review the facts:
1) Sonos's software could, and should be, modified to operate over multiple local subnets thus solving this problem overnight.
2) Ethernet over Powerline between the main router and the Sonos device is a great solution for most people who have accidentally introduced multiple subnets. Yes performance is not always 100% perfect but be practical; good enough is good enough for this use case.
3) If another WiFi device is required for range extension, running it in Layer-2 bridge mode rather than routing mode will help to eliminate multiple subnets. Customers should be told this.
4) It's irrelevant how UPnP is is/not designed to work. It's not appropriate to solely rely on it if you actually care about customer experience.
5) It's extremely arrogant and short sighted to dismiss this issue as not currently affecting "most customers".