Android and Trueplay



Show first post

176 replies

Userlevel 7
Badge +22

I picked up an apple device from ebay fairly cheap. I went with the newest available used to avoid having it age out on me any earlier than necessary.

Apple iPod touch 6th Generation Space Gray (16 GB). Model A1574.

Works fine, lives in a box, gets put on the charger every-other month unless I decide to reset my TruePlay config.

Rather have bought a plug-in mike for my Android gear.
 

Userlevel 2
Badge +1

It's interesting how Sonos seem to be giving a bit of a cold shoulder to 75% of the global device market. I think that might be justified from their perspective as:

  1. People buying Apple are more willing to buy a matching Sonos system.  
  2. Sonos is a more attractive partner/target for Apple this way, and last year we had some persistent rumours that an acquisition was in the cards. 
  3. People buying Android devices are less likely to accept being locked into a walled garden, and are more likely to want to bring other devices into the mix (and ask pesky questions about interoperability).  Apple users, however, are happy with this situation, they already live and die by the curated Apple app store, and are used to being locked into Apple approved accessories only.

Would be nice if they could instead have let me use a microphone in my Sonos Move or in a spare Sonos One. But maybe Sonos microphones just aren't good enough… who knows….

I think I might go and get myself an old iOS device for the purpose of tuning Trueplay capable devices and occasionally using Airplay. 

But should I really have to do that in 2021? 

 

Userlevel 7

@Thorium Prime Or you could just borrow an iOS device from a friend or relative for 10 minutes. You only need to perform Trueplay tuning once.

 

  1. People buying Apple are more willing to buy a matching Sonos system.  

 

I was one of these back in 2011, because both fell in the category of “they just work”. Now, there are a lot more than Sonos that do just that.

But funnily enough, on this forum, there are more Apple haters than the other kind; and ironically because they see Apple as a closed universe.

Just a small digression; I never used the horrendously expensive iPhones and Android serves me fine. I have an old handed down iPhone that works fine for Trueplay retuning on the rare occasions it is needed.

Userlevel 7
Badge +18

I don't know how better to explain it  but my Sonos system is playing the same file.

Using the Sonos app, I was listening to an audio file off my server on a pair of One SLs in my bedroom, at a volume setting with a numerical value of 13 (but I am now using 33 at this time).

The bedroom and basement pair of One SLs and the 5.1 system were all setup using Trueplay on my iPhone 6.

I introduced another pair of One SLs (1from the garage & 1 from the sunroom) but was not able to setup Trueplay because the operating system is not longer supported on my iPhone 6.

Over time, I noticed there was  sound degradation from the apps I was using inside the Sonos app.

I also started to notice, when I would switch between running the complete system as one or separate rooms and then back to whole system, at different times, the bedroom & the basement pairs did not sound as brilliant and bright, from room to room.

I did a Google search and and found out that the Maserati of Wi-Fi Speakers requires that I go to their approved third party to tune my system if I wanted to get my sound back to the way it was, apparently.

I'd be pissed too if someone ripped off my proprietary intellectual property but the drama created by product vendor that can alter and control their purchased product and be able to render that product no longer unsupported goes right back to my original point that the Sonos products that I am listening to today will not be a functional device in 20 years (without modification of the vendor's no longer supported settings), the same way my 40 yo legacy equipment works now.

 

A couple of points. 
 

First: the Sonos app on your phone is a “controller” rather than a “player”. When, in the app on your phone, you start “play album x on speakers an and b” the computer built into those speakers connects to your home library and initiates the play. The app has nothing more to do with it. Where you say “Over time, I noticed there was  sound degradation from the apps I was using inside the Sonos app” makes no sense: there is no app within the Sonos app  

Second: the computer within each of our Sonos speakers will indeed become obsolete at some time. How many computers bought 20 years ago are still functioning effectively today? (There are still many S1 Sonos devices out there!) How many non-Sonos computers do you expect to be functional 20 years from now? A “dumb” tuner/amp/passive speaker setup will indeed still work - unless the radio frequencies are shut down for commercial use, of course, or frequencies outside of those currently licenced become available. 

My bet is that is has nothing to do with technology, Apple are not using magical mystery microphones and software from a special wormhole that no-one else can access. Anyone would think from this 5 year old excuse that only Apple cares everything about audio and no other phone manufacturer could care less about what mic is thrown in.

The mic packages (for Apple and Pixel/Galaxy) are made in China to strict specifications. DXOMark has scored Android audio performance higher than Apple for a quite a while (in particular the Xiaomi Mi 10 Pro).

More likely reason is the court case between them for the past couple of years regarding patent infringement. Send the engineers into an anechoic chamber with a Pixel, Galaxy and Xiaomi and they would be profiled/audio modelled very quickly.

More likely reason is the court case between them for the past couple of years regarding patent infringement. 

Check your facts. Trueplay was introduced back in November 2015. The legal action started several years later.

It’s already been stated, multiple times, that even within one premium line of Android phone there were found to be umpteen variations of mic supply and hence audio characteristics. If Sonos could support Trueplay reliably on Android I’m sure they’d have done so years ago. And I for one would have welcomed it. 

As it is, I just keep an old iPod Touch (6th gen) aside for Trueplay tuning.

I call BS on the “variability/variation argument”, especially with modern mems microphone packages.

An assertion that could be just as accurate as the earlier theory that the issue was related to legal cases.

Just ask yourself this: why would Sonos not implement Trueplay on Android if it was as straightforward as with (approved) iDevices? 

I call BS on the “variability/variation argument”, especially with modern mems microphone packages.

An assertion that could be just as accurate as the earlier theory that the issue was related to legal cases.

Just ask yourself this: why would Sonos not implement Trueplay on Android if it was as straightforward as with (approved) iDevices? 

Well that’s an easy one, bad blood between them, potential $50M USD in yearly royalties, moving engineering teams to support Alexa instead instead of Google, not wanting to set a legal precedent of supporting Google products during a case (and appeals).

You have made an assumption that the exact same reason has held true since 2015 as to why they haven’t released it.

Could have been (and quite possible) microphone variability in 2013/14 Android devices, but unlikely to be the exact same reason 7-8 years later with the technical progress of handsets and wafer fab manufacturing. (however the excuse still holds and sounds reasonable, so they keep quoting it).

The answer won’t be straight forward, but I don’t think it has anything to do with the reasons when they first announced it won’t support Android.

I call BS on the “variability/variation argument”, especially with modern mems microphone packages.

An assertion that could be just as accurate as the earlier theory that the issue was related to legal cases.

Just ask yourself this: why would Sonos not implement Trueplay on Android if it was as straightforward as with (approved) iDevices? 

Well that’s an easy one, bad blood between them, potential $50M USD in yearly royalties, moving engineering teams to support Alexa instead instead of Google, not wanting to set a legal precedent of supporting Google products during a case (and appeals).

 

 

Sonos has publicly stated that they believe Amazon has violated  their intellectual property rights, same as Google did.  They had also recently stated that Apple’s plan of allowing Siri on non-Apple devices, as long as you have a homepod in the house, is disingenuous.  Sonos does business with all these companies.  The idea that Sonos is holding grudges against Google over other big tech players, thinks that withholding trueplay from android devices will hurt Google more than it hurts their own business, and that Sonos would sacrafice profits for bad blood….just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

 

You have made an assumption that the exact same reason has held true since 2015 as to why they haven’t released it.

Could have been (and quite possible) microphone variability in 2013/14 Android devices, but unlikely to be the exact same reason 7-8 years later with the technical progress of handsets and wafer fab manufacturing. (however the excuse still holds and sounds reasonable, so they keep quoting it).

 

 

I think you’re correct that the consistency of microphones in android devices could very well have become more consistent since 2015.  However, that doesn’t mean that Sonos still thinks implementing trueplay in all devices was a good decision.  It’s entirely possible they continue the process because they know they will lose customers if they drop support.  So it makes sense that they don’t want to exacerbate the problem by supporting trueplay on additional devices.

But say that’s not the case, and trueplay in Apple was a good decision 7 years later.  Which android brands do they support?  Probably Samsung, or certain models of Samsung, since they have the most sales and likely market share.  Do they have consistent mics?  And when they do this, will Pixel and other android brand owners have no reaction to that?  If you and others don’t accept that statement that mics are consistent now, why would they if Sonos expands supported device a little bit?

 

The answer won’t be straight forward, but I don’t think it has anything to do with the reasons when they first announced it won’t support Android.

 

No, it isn’t straight forward.  We don’t if conditions have changed or what they have changed to.  We don’t what the level of effort is for enabling trueplay on a particular phone model.  We don’t know how much that effort would take away from other development efforts.  We don’t know if Sonos is working on alternatives. 

I just don’t see the point of assuming Sonos is lying just because you don’t like answer. If you have actual data on the mic parts in all the major brands and models of android to show that the volume of variations is on par with Apple products, than you’d have a point. Part of the reason Sonos often doesn’t provide explanations for their decisions is because they know that a certain segment of their customers will never accept the reason no matter what it is. 

Hmmmm.  Bose and Samsung to name a couple of high end’s that have included necessary sound pick-up within the product.  For the ARC, how much could it cost to add a mic on a plug-in wire that would give you absolutely control over the sound pickup?

Loss of customers? I believe the Sonos results showed they had gained 1.8 million households worldwide in the last year. Sonos are taking legal action for patent infringement against certain companies,  as they have done successfully in the past with others. Of course they would protect their intellectual property.

When you say that Sonos doesn't listen to their customers, what you really mean is that your pet feature has not been their top priority. 

You are of course free to think what you like and buy what you like. I wish you well.

 

Hmmmm.  Bose and Samsung to name a couple of high end’s that have included necessary sound pick-up within the product.  For the ARC, how much could it cost to add a mic on a plug-in wire that would give you absolutely control over the sound pickup?

 

Considering they’d have to retool the line to incorporate that new plug connection into an existing design, it would cost a considerable amount. 

Userlevel 3

@John B your attitude is amazing and calling a feature I require a pet feature is uncalled for. They advertise this feature without notation of exception on their main page of the Arc product with is deceptive.  Since this feature is not a concern for you I see no reason why you even replied on this thread.

Calibrating audio for any room is an essential.  Audio equipment is designed for a perfectly acoustical environment which is impossible in a house unless you design a dedicated room for it.  Every system I have calibrated over the last 17 years has made a HUGE difference in sound quality coming from the equipment.  What you call my “pet feature” I call ensuring I am getting the best from my purchase.  

 

As far as the lawsuit it is because they cannot keep up with the cheap devices that Amazon and Google and to defend their IP which is definitely a must and I stand behind Sonos to do so. 
 https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/07/technology/sonos-sues-google.html 

“Sonos’s entry-level speaker is about $200. Amazon and Google’s cheapest speakers are $50, and they often offer them at much steeper discounts.

In the third quarter of 2019, Amazon shipped 10.5 million speakers and Google six million, according to Strategy Analytics. For the 12 months ending in September, Sonos said it had sold 6.1 million speakers.

“Amazon and Google are making it a mass-market product at a price point that Sonos can’t match,” said Jack Narcotta, a Strategy Analytics analyst.”

 

Why wouldn’t SONOS check Android microphone variability from time to time, and enable Trueplay if SONOS found a model that uses consistent microphones? Even if a model ‘A’ was found that is consistent enough, owners of other models would pummel SONOS for not including model ‘B’.

This would be expensive and troublesome because Android models tend to turnover more frequently than Apple models. SONOS would need to regularly sample each Android model.

 

Quite frankly this is all *!

I come from the audiophile industry.  Sonos could easily create a calibration file *.CAL for each phone which could be downloaded and used in a phone.  You need an anechoic chamber and a decent computer system.  It is no hard.  Many companies provide this service.  This is simply silly cos-savings and laziness.

Alternatively, they could release a stand-alone USB mic for $50 which could be used to provide this feature.  Come on Sonos - get your head out of your * and be the company you proclaim to be.  Don’t make me regret buying your $1,000 products!

*Moderator Note: Modified in accordance with the Community Code of Conduct.*

SONOS is attempting to measure the room characteristics. A simple wired microphone typically determines conditions at a spot -- and the wire is always too short -- or “I forgot where I stored the microphone” -- or the speaker is sitting on a high shelf (“how do I attach the microphone?”).

Admittedly, I don’t have a proper sample, but most SONOS users that I encounter have iDevices. SONOS would be aware of the actual percentages that use Android.

Sure, SONOS could sell a free standing wireless microphone. How much would you be willing to pay for such a device? Would you be grumbling that iDevice users would not need to purchase such a device? Should SONOS include such a device with each speaker? Of course this would imply raising prices to accommodate development, support (remember that SONOS offers “free” support), and production costs. And, for anyone who has an iDevice, there would eventually be extra junk for the recycle stream.

Now I am not like other people.   If the cost is less than half of a new apple device, then I would be willing to buy something.  I am going to have 3-4 rooms with several devices so that is a reasonable expense.  I suggest enabling the Roam with microphone as a work around.  I would be willing to buy one.

Well, I have purchased a Sonos Arc and though I was going nuts when I couldn't figure out how to calibrate the speaker. I must say I am somewhat disappointed to find this out. Even with A Google Pixel 7 Pro, I am amazed this is not supported or that there is no wired hardware solution. 

I feel I am regretting not going for the Sony HT-A7000 now :(. 

Quite honestly, I find it ridiculous that Sonos still hasn’t solved this issue. A USB C microphone could solve this problem once and for all. Especially considering iPhones now use USB C, as well. I would think that this would actually simplify the process for them when a new iPhone releases, too.

That being said, if Sonos refuses to release a dedicated microphone, they could at least support Samsung’s flagships and the Google Pixel line. Those likely account for the majority of their Android user base, anyway.

My response to nik9669a, 

I believe it is a very fair comparison and is a "no excuses" metric...does the piece of perform its intended function without interference or restrictions by the manufacturer?

I only need to check my wires, connections and fuses before I enjoy my legacy equipment. 

When this company adds the "drama of a adolescent" into its product line, this so called premium audio equipment with all its technical prowess, that requires one to borrow an iOS device to set up Trueplay, tells me and others I discuss this with, this is planned, and I spent a bunch of money on equipment that I am really only renting from the manufacturer before it goes to a landfill.

The simple fact is the C Suite chose to discriminate against people who purchased Sonos and have Android based phones, regardless of the quality of the phone running Android. 

I wonder how the C Suite can be so blind with Sonos, like the way RIM was with BlackBerry? 

Userlevel 7
Badge +22

The reason I’d like a dedicated mike is I am tired of buying replacements for my Apple whatever when it ages out and Sonos drops support for it.

Userlevel 7
Badge +17

Would Sonos requiring only Android users to buy a microphone for set up not also be seen as “discrimination”? If you bring this frame into what is, as I believe, a purely technical discussion, it will never end.

Userlevel 2
Badge +1

Just one microphone and individuals get their own adaptor if needed?

They could have just have let me used the mic in my Sonos Move or Sonos One to tune the speakers int he other rooms. It's not like this should be a problem. The Move is already using it's microphone for Trueplay.

Userlevel 5
Badge +12

My goal is to enjoy my Sonos as much as possible with minimal aggravation, not to get Sonos to do stuff.


I don’t think these should be mutually exclusive. Not everyone is capable of self sufficiency and expecting such as the default approach without addressing the root cause is a slippery slope to letting Sonos off the hook. On that basis we should not ask for any new features and start writing the code ourselves!!! 

Rather have bought a plug-in mike for my Android gear.
 

Absolutely…. 

Reply