The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

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chickentender

@chickentender @chickentender I get what you suggest about the big three, so good luck with that - not many of us can do what you are doing, and I certainly cannot.

Just a quick summary response to all that. I by no means am not involved in any or all the big-3. It’s merely that for audio purchases (hardware) and streaming interfaces (or even purchasing music) I do not use them. I have an android phone and Google in my house. My wife has an iPhone and Macbook. We both shop with Amazon (far too much - something we’ve been actively trying to scale back). I take privacy measures on various fronts but I also am not uptight about. For me it’s mostly just about giving my direct dollars for devices and services to companies whose business is audio first (Sonos) and not big tech in general. This is why I’ll never go full Google audio, or Amazon echo link etc.. I well understand why many do - it’s cost effective and often works reasonably well.

 

J
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In ‘normal use’, to use the line in, the CPU detects a signal and then the user has an option in the Sonos controller to select that input.I would guess that any Play 5 by default (whatever state its in) will not play anything from that line in source unless it is part of a Sonos system.

 

@johngolfuk - Caveat: I am as tight as any Yorkshireman.

To your first, the controller can be used to set the Line In on any unit to Autoplay. Once that is done, the music play is automatic as soon as the Line In senses a signal. Even if all other units in the system are missing, Sonos net is off, and WiFi is off. All that is needed is mains power to the Sonos unit and the signal at the Line In jacks.

 

Ha! Trust me to pick a product that I don’t own and have no knowledge of as an example!

All my Sonos gear that has line-in is proper vintage stuff - we are talking a pair each of ZP80s and ZP100s, all nearly 15 years old.

I looked at my Sonos controller (V8.4) and there is no autoplay option for me so I think this is only a feature of the newer line-in units?

Nonetheless, it doesn’t affect me as I am where I am software-wise.

Interestingly, a Play 5 openly advertised as being in recycle mode has just sold on eBay UK for £33.50 plus £6.49 delivery - with 7 different bidders going for it!

As to people who had already traded up and, ahem, ‘recycled’ their products, would they be riled if Sonos implemented the line-in code change to turn, say, a Play 5 in to an active speaker?

I’m not sure that they would be - after all, I assume their reasons for upgrading are either fear factor following the announcement or they were after new kit anyway and saw the 30% as a good incentive. Either way, they still want all their Sonos kit to work in harmony and a modded / bricked recycle mode Play 5 wouldn’t fit in to that scheme…..

And for that reason, and getting back on to topic, I don’t see a problem in discussing these ideas here, nor would I hardly call it fraudulent for someone not to throw their speaker away as part of the trade up program.

Sorry Ken, there is absolutely no need to remove any posts. Sonos are getting extra sales when people trade up and I’m sure they don’t really care whether the bricked unit is ‘recycled responsibly’or not - it makes not a jot of difference to them.

PS - Digressing again, there is also for sale on eBay just the front panel / grill and speaker components from a recycled Play 5 - a brilliant idea for someone looking to replace a damaged grill or blown speaker.

 

 

K

Feedback on line in sensitivity levels - this is an issue that is well known to Sonos line in users. The solution is to bump up line in levels all the way up to max -10 - on the controller app. It will cause distortion in only very rare cases; if distortion heard, dial level back down to 8.

PS: Does the Echo Input accept a bluetooth stream like the Echo Dot does? Also, try the Amazon Cast feature where you can start music on the phone in the Amazon Music app, and then cast it to the Input that will then take the stream over, leaving the phone out of the loop. Very good away of avoiding voice commands.

More tips for Echo try outs, all based on the wired to line in mode, I can’t speak to how the Alexa integration with Sonos works.

  1. Make sure to use Alexa groups within the Alexa apps to set up both groups and preferred speaker/groups. The latter allows voice commands to be very brief. 
  2. Also choose the most used streaming service that is available via Alexa as the default service, that also shortens the voice commands.
  3. A longer wire is needed for this, but it helps the voice thing to work better if the Echo unit is at some distance from the speakers, such that the sound from the latter does not overwhelm your voiced command.
  4. And of course, the cast to Echo feature is very useful on the many occasions that voice is not appropriate. It also helps people like me that have many self curated playlists in the app, but can’t remember them when needed, to select one and then command it to play by voice, usually in shuffled mode. I often have to call up the app to pick a playlist name to play, and then command it to play by voice. Or via the casting method, if that suits better at that time. Unfortunately the cast option is only available for Amazon Music at this time, even if, as it is in my case, Apple Music can also be played via Echo; hopefully that will change, but just now Apple Music play is possible only via voice. Other apps may have their own idiosyncrasies. Spotify may be able to use Spotify Connect to cast to Echo, something that someone here that has Spotify in Alexa can speak to that.
  5. It may be worth doing a search for more Echo tips and tricks, if that is either your chosen alternative to Sonos, or just as an interface to Sonos via Line In.
K

Well I intend to continue to use my 2005-era ZP100’s (and other legacy) alongside some newer equipment I have just as I always have. As long as it largely continues to do what it does today, I really don’t care that much about new features.

As long as there are some mainstream streaming services which still work for me, or if I can cast in some way, I’m not that bothered.

If it really comes to it I will split my network into two. That’s not ideal, but it will work for me.

 

Key takeaways in my book, the quoted. As to the first, this is close to what MacFarlane tweeted as his go ahead plan, so we are in august company.

I don't see myself running two networks, so I doubt I will split, but that decision also hangs on things like what unit is placed in what part of the home, so it is very much a case of different strokes, and the answer will vary from one user to the next.

K

quite honestly am beginning to feel almost happy about the announcement because it prompted me to look at other possibilities… Not the drastic measures some have imagined this announcement necessitating, just subtle massaging.

Why am I not surprised?! It was the absence of the Alexa India integration that drove me towards the idling Line In jacks of my Sonos kit a couple of years ago, so I know the feeling. That was before the release of the display equipped Echo Show 5, that made a display screen addition to Sonos possible, but it was being able to play with cheap Dots that have now left me a viable alternative to Sonos that gives me something I missed in Sonos from the early days, based on my use of CD players that had a LED strip that gave track play information - now, about ten years after having sold the last such player, a Sonos zone finally has a display that has more - album art in full colour. In another Sonos zone, I get album art for track playing on a old 32 inch LCD panel via Spotify, from a Chromecast Video puck fed TV that has its audio wired to the Line In of a Connect. All this means that if Sonos were to release the Alexa India integration before the legacy halt happens, it will be useful to me, but in just one of my zones where the play 1 pair does not have line in jacks. 

An interesting experience to narrate in this context: back in late 2017, when Amazon released Alexa in India, being impatient to have it on Sonos, I emailed Spence a couple of times to shake the India integration out of the Sonos tree. He responded, politely, but did nothing more. After some time, I had a WTF moment, and  figured out a way to get Alexa to work on my Sonos zones via Sonos line in jacks and did not feel the need for Spence any more. 

There is a lesson there for Sonos that savvy business managers have known for ages - once you give a competitor a toe hold in your strongholds, there is no knowing how the thin end of that wedge may expand, even to the point of displacing you over time. So before you pursue new markets and new customers, make sure that you do not concede any toe holds in your existing markets - you risk losing everything that way.

These by the way are things that doesn't take a geek to accomplish, it is all plug and play and some imagination. Many possibilities then become visible to not just replicate but to go beyond what Sonos offers.

Necessity is the mother of invention, as I am sure many other users will re-discover as well.

T
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Progress (modest) report:

100% (up from 90%) Echo Dot volume brought modest improvement in reported output, but not where we want it to be.  No distortion observed. 

Methods:
Echo Link optical output Toslink connect to receiver third optical input (new).
ZP-90 optical output Toslink connect to receiver first optical input (existing).
Compare Echo Dot analog output to Echo Link optical output.
Link and ZP-90 source volumes set (via app) at both half and full scale.
Two streams tested:  1) TuneIn, local FM station selected; 2) Sirius XM Loft channel.
Amazon Music not yet tested.
Baseline: no changes to receiver volume setting, all scenarios.

Observations: (YMMV, IMHO)
Two adult listeners who love our music, thus argue both not professionals, not novices. No known hearing deficits.
Streams via Sonos louder, cleaner, crisper, relatively unmuddled. They are what we expect from our music.
Streams via Echo Link less: loud, clean, crisp, muddled. They are not up to our expectations, but it works alright.
Echo Link volume increase necessary to achieve comparable listening level: 10-20% subjective.
Unknown if quality of streams via each source/device are different. We definitely can detect a difference. Does anyone factually know if different?
Unknown if difference can be attributed to device, stream, both or other factors.
Using sources above, Echo Link optical output above sounds better than Echo Dot analog output (no surprise here).

Thoughts (Ready, fire, aim with yours begging indulgence):
Streaming based, Sonos wins hands down, clearly superior.
No trials NAS music library: Sonos vs Echo MyMedia skill.
Stick with Echo Link on preference over Dot and other app features.
Echo could save opted-in legacy Sonos hardware, so far....
Plan to go with legacy mode Sonos based on what we know now.
Sonos performs and has features we prefer; plenty still to learn about  Echo app.
Echo streams:  Disappointing for us. Step it up.
Unfortunate the Connect Amp has no optical input.

Opining:
Is a second ecosystem or Sonos trade-up worth it?  Need to get more data on the table before more $$$ spent.  If no financial constraint on facts known so far: Sonos it is.  Our past Sonos upgrades have been used to expand our system thru wider deployment.  We'd contract deployment to retain music listening we expect, i.e. let the Play5s go in less-used bedrooms rooms where they live now.  Keep whatever we can alive in the public areas. Later consider Play Ones.

Hey Sonos:  (have at Ryan!)
Three requests, if not already available: 

Can I get discount on new Play Ones to replace Play 5s? 

Whatever you can tell us about PlayBar and PlayBase (and other) obsolete schedule is welcome and serves transparency having not gotten it wrong from the start.

Can you step-up and puuhhlease do a plug-in device rendering the Play5s, ZP-90s, Connect Amps (in my case) dumb with the device handling the hard work?  Holy Heifers Batman, JUST DO IT!!  I'll speculate it serves well: your Brand, your customer allegiance and respect, less mass to recycling and/or landfill.

Thank you. End rant.

Ken_Griffiths

So now, a call to @ratty @buzz  and @Majik, Jedi masters of the Sonos galaxy, to step in whenever they can, in any way they can, in response to any post, in furtherance of the objectives of the thread that the title tries to capture. What ever you can do or are still willing to, will have an impact. 

Kumar,

Whilst I appreciate the shout-out, I certainly don’t consider myself to be any sort of “Jedi master” of Sonos. In fact I would probably say that, in recent years, I’ve grown a bit out of touch with the newer kit and the kit I have does what I need it to do (at least for the moment).

So, in conjunction with a waning interest in ”dabbling” with my system, the fact that I’m no longer a moderator (thank goodness), changes I made to my online habits a few years ago, and some changes in my working life I no longer feel the need to keep abreast of the latest and greatest in the Sonos world, including the forum chatter, angry mobs, and management fumbles.

If I was still a moderator during the current “fun” I’m really not sure how we would handle it. At the end of the day we didn’t want to censor opinions but, on the other hand, we wanted people to keep conversations reasonably civilised and, ideally rational and objective.

Unfortunately, the mishandling of this situation by Sonos seems to have raised a pitchfork mob, which almost certainly includes people who are wholly ignorant of the situation, but who have been given a whiff of blood and encouraged to “pile in” by sensationalist reporting in the gutter tech press (yes, Verge, I’m looking at you).

I recall this happening before but in much lower profile ways and at a point when Sonos was a much smaller animal, so the often-feigned bile and outrage directed into the forums was manageable.

I’ve not read the threads and probably won’t. But I guarantee there’s people in them who have joined the forum just to take shots at Sonos, and a good proportion of them won’t be Sonos users. Many of those people will have gone through several iterations of iPhone in as many years. #justsayin

That isn’t to say that people don’t have a point. This was really badly handled. I’m not going to speculate on the reasons behind it or whether they’ve could have done it a better way, etc. because I don’t feel qualified to.

As to what is the solution for those with mixed networks? Well I intend to continue to use my 2005-era ZP100’s (and other legacy) alongside some newer equipment I have just as I always have. As long as it largely continues to do what it does today, I really don’t care that much about new features.

I do care about streaming services, although the majority of my Sonos purchases were originally made based on streaming from my home server, and I don’t see that going away. Will there be services that I can’t access? Probably. Do I care? As long as there are some mainstream streaming services which still work for me, or if I can cast in some way, I’m not that bothered.

If it really comes to it I will split my network into two. That’s not ideal, but it will work for me.

If Sonos were to develop the app so you could easily switch between legacy and new installations, I would be happy with that.

To be honest, many of the ZPs in my network rarely get used these days. At some point I may upgrade one or two of my zones to newer kit, but I don’t feel compelled to do so at the moment. The zones where I do most of my listening have the newer devices already.

YMMV

Cheers,

Keith

It’s so refreshing to see from your post, that amongst all the ‘flak’ around here, some common sense still prevails and I have same/similar thoughts Keith, that if I were to divide my Sonos Household into ‘legacy’ and ‘modern’ it would not bother me too much either..  nice if I could achieve 'upstairs' and 'downstairs' separate zones in my home, but whatever setup I have, post May, I’m sure I will cope with any physical divide. 

 

I do still believe the most important aspect of all this for the majority is, I assume, to keep their devices up and running for as long as it is practicable to do so and that we at least feel we have got our ‘money’s worth’, or more, from them. For some that might perhaps be a period of more than 5 to 10 years and for others it seems to be a rather unrealistic expectation period in some cases, but ‘nothing is forever’. 10 years overall is ‘extremely reasonable’ and Sonos has far exceeded that now in some cases.

 

Nothing in any of the Sonos announcements cause me (personally) any real concern, in fact some things have reassured me greatly, in that Staff say they will do all that is reasonably practical, within their capabilities, to keep the already 'old’ legacy products running for the foreseeable future. I can live with that ‘promise’.

 

I think we all have to accept that the ‘plugin’ services (external factors) maybe beyond Sonos control, but with some cooperation I don’t see why those services will ever truly want to cut off their own loyal customers anyway.

 

In regard to the ‘initial’ announcement, I still don’t see any inaccuracies in the message, but it was (without doubt) widely misinterpreted, in a variety of different ways, by many (even done purposely, on occasions, I suspect) ...and the core message got twisted early on in a “Chinese Whisper” (game) kind of way, to the extent that the wrong message was then being conveyed. 

 

It became necessary for Sonos to re-state their message with some additional clarity and reassurance and that has since greatly helped. 

 

What will help further, of course is the detail about the proposal and I’m sure we will get that too in the fullness of time.

 

The issue that I see now is that people are acting rather impatiently, that’s human nature and want to know everything right now, or they will just continue to stamp their feet, speculate and rumourmonger until they then believe what they want to choose to believe. 

 

Drip feeding Sonos customers pieces of the overall final concept may not now help either and I think Sonos are right to now wait and convey their message in full.

 

It’s just a pity that some people cannot wait patiently until the all important message arrives in May.

K

I was under the impression that this was the “pragmatic” thread. Due respect to all, but it’s drifting back toward the swirling tempest.

Second star to the right and straight on ‘til morning.

 

Agreed, nudge noted. I have decided to stop posting on every thread other than this one and its companion. It isn't worth the effort, and I can still get my daily dose of entertainment in lurking mode there, from posters on either side of the divide. 

Moving on: over on the advanced thread, if the stupid spam filter will let me show it, there is an interesting conversation with @castalla under way on how to get the Echo Show to stream from local media with album art. It sounds intriguing enough to motivate me to get the Raspberry Pi and learn how to get it to sing and dance. Discussions have been via PM because the spam filter butted in, I will see if I can capture those and post them in the Advanced Approaches thread.

Relevant for this thread is the realisation that the Echo Show need not be wire tethered to the Line In - I think it has BT out capability and if so, it can wirelessly stream to a receiver wired to the Line In jacks. BT is also getting better, and can be useful where it isn’t being done from a phone and being interrupted by it. 

PS: I see that Ryan has restored the filter snagged posts; I have therefore had to copy only the last PM exchange.

K

This, by Sonos, is massive; the recycling nonsense to get the 30% discount is discontinued.

https://www.engadget.com/2020/03/05/sonos-kills-its-device-bricking-recycle-mode/?guccounter=1

At least a month late, but better late than never.

N
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I’ve deleted a number of responses. They were taking the thread in a direction it was not meant to go.

Can we please focus on the intended subject of the topic? There’s enough other topics that are rife with negativity. Thanks in advance. 

You deleted the post by Footsore with lots of relevant information and on topic. Can you put it back please?

 

Edward R
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There’s a version here - although some of the version numbers have changed, the basic principles hold :-

www.amun.org.uk/Sonos/Sonos Lock Down Procedures.pdf

I found it very useful when I locked my system down - I just don’t know who to thank for it :-)

I tried to post a longform copy of this up but was sent for moderation - I guess too long (or too many links). Who wrote it up, I think the user was Colin. Much of the investigative was collaborative and added to by numerous posters in the lengthy thread, now conveniently locked, then archived! There was a whole bunch of users trying to help each other and jgatie just being a troll as usual.

I use Open DNS to block:

  • update-firmware.sonos.com
  • update.sonos.com

As it is easier to do it there then in my Unifi Router which is a bit rubbish at blocking specific websites (but good at other stuff)

Dave


Here you go, @NeedSleep. Please leave the profanity out of your posts henceforth. 

Ken_Griffiths

Kumar,

As mentioned we can only speculate until the detail is published...

 

Just to perhaps clarify my own comments, my thoughts here are that 'no new features' and 'no new hardware'either, will be able to be added to a legacy system… so if Sonos brought out say a new Sonos One (gen 3) for example in the run-up to next Christmas, then I do not personally think you could add that to a legacy setup, or if Sonos were to change the software and maybe add some EQ audio pre-set options, I would not expect to see those features appear in the legacy system either.

Edit: by the way I have gone back and bolded my replies in my previous post so you csn quickly pick out the things I mentioned.(hope that assists).👍

A
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I posted this in the other thread but came across this one so would post hear

 

the sonos decision has far more reaching consequences than a product brand dying. Sonos has highlighted to me that this can happen to any of these type of systems and many alternatives have been suggested. Sonos should really get together with all the major streaming services and devise a standard where software updates would only be needed to fix system bugs and stop playing catchup with the streaming services. It's in the intrest of these services as well because if the buying public sees the pitfalls of buying such devices to stream there music and that device becomes obsolete and does not run that streaming service again, the streaming service revenue will fall and the whole industry will most likely fail because the paying public will see the whole streaming concept as a flawed concept. Even before this has happened vynal is making a come back as well as cassette tape even. I'm sure the record industry would be affected as well as lost revenue in record sale as someone streaming will be more likely to listen to something different as opposed to actually taking a risk to buy the physical one.

A
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Just chanced on this add-on which might be of interest to those looking for a solution to attach to their existing amp & utilising a hard wired Zone 2/3.

It has a great review & an add-on like this might be worth considering.

Bluetooth is incorporated into most devices & I think will outlive most of the multi-room options for a fraction of the price & this one seems to have decent connectivity & components.

With the current Sonos debacle I'm now giving this serious consideration to work with Plex which is primarily what I'm using the current Sonos system for anyway.

Volume control & sound tweaking for piped music would be handled directly from my amp manufacturers app, in my case Yamaha with Spotify Connect built in.

Heck, you could even feed it to a line-in legacy Sonos!

The other options in scope if Sonos doesn't come through are Nvidia Shield Pro/Plex via HDMI to amp, or Bluesound Node 2i to amp, but I'm a bit wary of the second option given recent events.

The Bluetooth option not for everyone I'd imagine, but perhaps helpful to some if not built-in to an AV receiver already.

Here's the detail.

https://audioengineusa.com/shop/adapters/b1-bluetooth-music-receiver/

Review here..

https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/audioengine/b1.htm

jgatie

Thanks for the helpful post. I have 8 Connect:Amps for whole house audio. Does anyone know (@Ryan S) if Sonos has or will commit to maintaining basic functionality as long as the hardware is operational? More specifically, the ability to connect a cheap audio streamer to the line input, and play that input *with the ability to group zones*.  (I’ve only used line input on a single zone so I don’t even know if grouping is a current function using the line input as audio source)

Sonos would not have to ensure that 3rd parties software is compatible. All they have to do is make sure is future versions of the Sonos interfaces (iPhone, Android) still communicate with the device and maintain this functionality. I don’t want an app update on my iPhone bricking the Connect:Amps.

Furthermore, if the hardware dies, the ability to replace with a modern sonos AMP and maintain the above functionality (would a new device require a firmware downgrade?) I don’t need bells and whistles or voice etc, I just need to be able to internet stream to multiple zones. I could maybe handle swapping out my connect:amps with the newer amps if the hardware dies slowly one by one over the course of 5-10 years. But the financial and environmental cost of doing that all at once not an option, especially if the hardware is perfectly functional.

 

If you stay on legacy software, are not using outside music sources, and only streaming from your local library or a Line-in, your system should work just as it does today until the hardware fails.

chickentender

As I said it works fine for me and working through Chromecast it renders artwork on the tv screen as well. As well as via Fire sticks.

And the app control interface can be via either a phone or a computer.

But you can also do this via the Amazon music app and your echos will do multi room sync plus voice as well. So, why Spotify?

I guess I would say two theoretical reasons why Spotify over just using the Alexa app.  First the idea that Spotify connect allows each device to stream directly from spotify's servers.  This may be more of a theoretical advantage than practical.  Second, I could add a Google home and numerous other vendors hardware and Spotify will not care.  If I use Alexa I am tied into the Amazon environment.  Although  unlikely, what stops Amazon from obsoleting all their old echo devices.  Since Spotify is a content provider, it makes sense to me that they have a financial incentive to make the Spotify app and protocol as accessible as possible to as many hardware vendors as possible.

In terms of streaming with Spotify Connect, yes you’re correct the device used is is pulling the stream (to the best of my knowledge) from Spotify’s server while playback is happening and the Spotify interface on your device is acting as a controller, as opposed to (as you’ve mentioned) using Bluetooth or Airplay where the device you’re using to control is pulling the stream and then sending it to the playback device. 

Caveat with Spotify Connect is that (as also mentioned above) it can only play to one source. You can play to multiple Sonos speakers but the grouping is done via the Sonos controller. As seen in the screenshot - there are multiple devices on my network to play to with Spotify Connect, including the Sonos One with 2 additional (+2) speakers in that group as defined by speaker zone grouping with Sonos itself. You cannot select to play to multiple playback destinations - you can only choose one.

The only 3rd party streaming interface that I’m aware of (there may be others, I’m not sure) that can define/change speaker groups within the app itself is Pandora’s Sonos integration (mobile only, not desktop or web versions) but I think that capability is limited to Sonos speakers specifically.

 

T
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Progress (not) update:

Received Echo Dot today to trial.  Checked out wiring/other AUX inputs with other non-Echo devices and function appears to be fine.

Pretty much same result as reported earlier with Echo Input device. Other devices typically need 30-40% scale volume setting on A/V receiver for comfortable listening volume. Both Echo Dot and Echo Input require 70-80% to achieve comparable listening level with Alexa App volume set to 90%. For me it works, but not well….  It makes me worry as I speculate pushing A/V receiver too hard (maybe it’s not working harder since input signal is low, but don’t know enough about how these work).

This is really a deficit/fail for me since I have multiple A/V or speaker amps in the house, and it practically limits adoption of Echo "ecosystem".

The current ZP-90 is connected to A/V system via optical-in, and using that to A/V receiver is perfectly fine without having to set volume way higher on A/V receiver.

Maybe a receiver firmware update would fix it since that is long overdue.  Will try that, and explore input options other than AUX, receiver mfg advice/settings. Tale of woe is tiresome pull of HEAVY A/V cabinet away from wall, crawling around, testing, pushing cabinet back.

Anybody have a point of view about whether this could be fixed with Echo device firmware update?

BTW off topic, Dot price decreased $20 ($50 earlier) during Superbowl, overnight from previous day purchase.  Request to Amazon to credit price difference met with separate refusal from four different representatives during my effort to escalate, obviously trying to wear me out (or pad incentive driven representative compensation?) Unfortunate if not pathetic Amazon “resistance is futile” cannot/will not handle gesture of good faith. End rant.

 

K

It is very important for Sonos to put in place and for users to understand all the workflows to make sure that legacy system users do not end up with split systems inadvertently. Perhaps Sonos needs to change its policy of never being able to revert to an earlier version to allow those who still manage to end up with a split system to go back to a legacy system that includes all their products.

This has all the appearances of another minefield in the making, considering the typical user profile; and I do not mean to be patronising in saying this.

And Sonos needs to significantly elevate support staffing at all touch points for a long enough time post the transition, I think.

 

F
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Excellent thread -- thanks to the many helpful contributors. I feel better now about letting my relatively small system (Play5, Connect, 3 Play1s, Boost) stay in “Legacy mode” rather than trying to split them up somehow. I don’t use them for TV at all, and figure I should be able to use the line-ins on the Play5 and/or the Connect to handle any future “dongles” necessary for my limited streaming needs (TuneIn and Youtube Music/Google Play Music) -- right now I have two Chromecast Audios.

For clarity, as long as I keep them all in one connected system, Sonos won’t “force update” the non-legacy bits on me?

Another question -- what about the windows/android/iOS “controllers” -- do I have to do something to prevent them from getting updated in some way that will bork their compatibility with my “Legacy” system?

I will be watching the adventures with Roon, the Node2i and other options with great interest ...

I agree about the thread - it is first class. Thanks Kumar. It’s interesting to me to learn how much flexible good value audio components there are around now compared with when I bought my first Play:5. I know that I can stream from my NAS in any number of ways but future streaming services concern me a bit.

While many products mentioned support services such as Spotify etc. I’ve seen very few that mention TuneIn Radio. if I lost that I’d be unhappy, so I’ve been digging out the URLs for the stations that I listen to the most and adding them manually to the controller app; I’m pleasantly surprised how many of them work.

That brings up another concern: ultimately we’re at the mercy of the controller app. I hope we don’t lose any of the functionality the it currently has.

U
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Excellent thread -- thanks to the many helpful contributors. I feel better now about letting my relatively small system (Play5, Connect, 3 Play1s, Boost) stay in “Legacy mode” rather than trying to split them up somehow. I don’t use them for TV at all, and figure I should be able to use the line-ins on the Play5 and/or the Connect to handle any future “dongles” necessary for my limited streaming needs (TuneIn and Youtube Music/Google Play Music) -- right now I have two Chromecast Audios.

For clarity, as long as I keep them all in one connected system, Sonos won’t “force update” the non-legacy bits on me?

Another question -- what about the windows/android/iOS “controllers” -- do I have to do something to prevent them from getting updated in some way that will bork their compatibility with my “Legacy” system?

I will be watching the adventures with Roon, the Node2i and other options with great interest ...

I agree about the thread - it is first class. Thanks Kumar. It’s interesting to me to learn how much flexible good value audio components there are around now compared with when I bought my first Play:5. I know that I can stream from my NAS in any number of ways but future streaming services concern me a bit.

While many products mentioned support services such as Spotify etc. I’ve seen very few that mention TuneIn Radio. if I lost that I’d be unhappy, so I’ve been digging out the URLs for the stations that I listen to the most and adding them manually to the controller app; I’m pleasantly surprised how many of them work.

That brings up another concern: ultimately we’re at the mercy of the controller app. I hope we don’t lose any of the functionality the it currently has.

see the message regarding chromecast - you don’t need the sonos controller app ;)

M
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@MikeOinToronto : Bad idea; there is too much of missing frequencies between Dots and Echo Sub, and the mid range of the Dots sucks - Dots are really not meant for listening to music, except via their line out.

If you want to go down that route, test the regular cylindrical Echo with the Sub. Or, an Echo studio pair.

Because of the replacement risk, I would not go that way, the price point that is vulnerable obsolescence risk then goes too high in my book.

Far better to look for active speakers to run from the Dots - you can get these from USD 100 to USD 10000 or more. Make sure the expensive ones have service support - being dumb, they won't go out of service except via hardware failures.

Thanks Kumar.  You are likely correct.  I think I have been so emotionally invested in this that my rational thought has been messed up. Kind of like grieving it has taken me a while to process what is going on, with various stages of emotion along the way.  So I think from a practical stand point I am going to do nothing.  My play 1s and later connect survived the first round of cuts and they still work great.

I suspect both products will fall in the next round so I will have to then move them to legacy mode.  Then when they no longer function with my streaming service they will be done.  Whether it is in 6 months or six years i have no idea.

If the devices fail from physical causes I will replace them with dumb speaker/amp, cheap streamer/WiFi technology.  At any rate, no new Sonos stuff for me.

Finally I am going to try hard to recognize this as a good lesson for me.  I was very lucky in that I had not followed through with a couple of larger sonos purchases yet.  I figured a pair of play 5s would eventually replace my vintage stereo and a sub would eventually be added to my play ones in the living room.  I am very lucky this announcement came out before I made either of those purchases. Many other Sonos customers were not so lucky.

Finally it has opened my eyes to smart technology as a whole and helped me recognize that there are major drawbacks.  Won't be buying any large appliances that rely on apps or the internet to function.  Will keep my home as dumb as possible and especially will be very cautious about locking into the ecosystem of a specific company.  And I will be discussing this issue with family and friends.  Smart technology for me will be limited to cheap toys.

S
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Does anyone know if Roon could be used as a server to send simultaneously to  the legacy and modern networks? I asked this on the main thread but it got lost in the widespread venting. The Roon support site seems to think it can,

 

The way I understand it at the moment Roon can do this but I’ve read so much over the past few days I’ve confused myself lol so please don’t take it as gospel from me. I’m interested in Roon because many of the big players Linn, Naim, B&W etc support it so it’s not as standalone as Sonos. I came very close over the weekend to taking the plunge with B&W formation kit because

A it sounds absolutely stunning in a demo I had with just Bluetooth from my phone

B because of Bluetooth, Roon etc it would “hopefully” be more future proof

C my experience of B&W customer support with obsolescence has been excellent in the past with 75% offered off the newer Zeppelin 

 

unfortunately I was caught by my wife drooling over the formation duo like a schoolboy with a found mucky magazine or I fear they’d be getting delivered this week lol.  Like many others here I’m in a holding pattern on Audio gear until things are clearer but this has been a massive wake up call that will shape my future purchases to be more along dumb equipment with a cheaply replaced streamer/encoder rather than reliance on 1 companies whim as I’ve become with Sonos. I’ve also contemplated picking up a cheap gen1 play 5 to stereo pair with another one and worst case just use the line in for the foreseeable.

R
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I am with chickentender's first paragraph Sonos was (and I am sure this is true for many owners) bought for simplicity of use, multi room in sync along with great audio quality. So the way forward for people like me has to be a single evnironment. So whilst many of these ideas are fascinating, and in truth if it was just me in the house well… but they are not for me.

And this is sad because currently it looks like my pragmatic way forward is to live with legacy and not buying any more Sonos after May ( maybe later depending upon the solution Sonos finally deliver) and, by the time I do have to think of replacement there could be significant alternatives to Sonos out there.

There are solutions that I believe Sonos could implement but whether they see the business case for doing so…..

 

K

LOL.

K

here’s a post on another thread where I described for under  £35 per play:5 you can have groups and stereo paired speakers using chromecast ...

“ok, so here’s a thing. take a gen 3 chromecast (£25), add an hdmi splitter (£8) , plug chromecast into splitter, plug audio cable from splitter into sonos play:5 , turn on autoplay 
 

I had seen this on the other thread and planned to copy it here, but thank you for beating me to this; it is a cool and doable workaround now that Google has stopped making the Chromecast audio puck that came with a stereo audio jack.

When it was introduced, I was very impressed with that device - the CCA. I bought one to play around with it because it was cheap. I have posts here from that time that write about how it completely destroyed the credibility of the price point of the Connect. My only issue with it was that I am used to extensively using the hard buttons on the Connect/Connect Amps to start/stop streams or to skip tracks, and to adjust sound levels. Using the CCA means - in my case - having to first find my phone and then invoke the app casting the stream to do this each time. I got tired of doing that and shifted CCA to a drawer where it still languishes. But I will leave it there for the day of the apocalypse:-).

@chickentender Your idea of buying a Connect - new or preferably used - just now is excellent, for those that have only modern products like play 3 or early make play 1 that will be the next to be culled. Because these do not have line in jacks, The only warning is make sure you don't end up buying a bricked for recycling Connect. 

@FarFromGruntled  I don't use radio much these days, except for a favourite station, Radio Paradise. But I think that all streamers can do Tune In, that is a basic function of all. I know Echo can, and it even has a skill dedicated to Radio Paradise. Also, even when all streaming service cease to work on Connect in a hopefully distant future, odds are that radio will continue to work. As to being mercy of the controller app, one can only hope that present or the next management team/s see that keeping it going is an important part of keeping the business running. And it is not just the app, that is trivial; Sonos servers need to be kept being accessible to us. But there is no point worrying about every doomsday scenario.

@Ken_Griffiths : Per @Ryan S , there WILL be a legacy app for legacy systems. That should take care of the inadvertent updating nightmares and sweats. It will however not address it for those that have come to this fork before us, that locked themselves out to retain CR100/classic blue etc. Those will continue to need special handling.

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