The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

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L
Userlevel 2

Thanks for the helpful post. I have 8 Connect:Amps for whole house audio. Does anyone know (@Ryan S) if Sonos has or will commit to maintaining basic functionality as long as the hardware is operational? More specifically, the ability to connect a cheap audio streamer to the line input, and play that input *with the ability to group zones*.  (I’ve only used line input on a single zone so I don’t even know if grouping is a current function using the line input as audio source)

Sonos would not have to ensure that 3rd parties software is compatible. All they have to do is make sure is future versions of the Sonos interfaces (iPhone, Android) still communicate with the device and maintain this functionality. I don’t want an app update on my iPhone bricking the Connect:Amps.

Furthermore, if the hardware dies, the ability to replace with a modern sonos AMP and maintain the above functionality (would a new device require a firmware downgrade?) I don’t need bells and whistles or voice etc, I just need to be able to internet stream to multiple zones. I could maybe handle swapping out my connect:amps with the newer amps if the hardware dies slowly one by one over the course of 5-10 years. But the financial and environmental cost of doing that all at once not an option, especially if the hardware is perfectly functional.

F
Userlevel 7
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There’s a version here - although some of the version numbers have changed, the basic principles hold :-

www.amun.org.uk/Sonos/Sonos Lock Down Procedures.pdf

I found it very useful when I locked my system down - I just don’t know who to thank for it :-)

I tried to post a longform copy of this up but was sent for moderation - I guess too long (or too many links). Who wrote it up, I think the user was Colin. Much of the investigative was collaborative and added to by numerous posters in the lengthy thread, now conveniently locked, then archived! There was a whole bunch of users trying to help each other and jgatie just being a troll as usual.

I use Open DNS to block:

  • update-firmware.sonos.com
  • update.sonos.com

As it is easier to do it there then in my Unifi Router which is a bit rubbish at blocking specific websites (but good at other stuff)

Dave

Edit: It was @Ikrananka that produced the final document but looks like he hasn’t posted since that point. 

Owner since 2006: Legacy System(8.4):3*CR100:1*ZP80:4*ZP100:1*Play 5. - S1 System:1*ZP100:1*Z120. - S2 System:5*Amp:1*Port:2*Five:1*Arc,1*Move:1*Play Bar:1*Subwoofer:5*Play1 : Long live the CR100!
Edward R
Userlevel 7
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I’ve deleted a number of responses. They were taking the thread in a direction it was not meant to go.

Can we please focus on the intended subject of the topic? There’s enough other topics that are rife with negativity. Thanks in advance. 

EDIT: I’ve also had to remove other responses that were quoting deleted messages. 

K

I’ve deleted a number of responses. They were taking the thread in a direction it was not meant to go.

Can we please focus on the intended subject of the topic? There’s enough other topics that are rife with negativity. Thanks in advance. 

I had a moment when I noticed that my posts suggesting just this have disappeared, but I now see they were pulled for good reasons, so I am fine with the intent behind that action.

K

@Edward R. Got it, appreciate the clarification.

Moving on...(hopefully🙂)

K

if Sonos brought out say a new Sonos One (gen 3) for example in the run-up to next Christmas, then I do not personally think you could add that to a legacy setup, or if Sonos were to change the software and maybe add some EQ audio pre-set options, I would not expect to see those features appear in the legacy system either.

I would agree with you on both counts but cannot do so unreservedly, because of the fuzziness I have referred to earlier around the first one. In one of those fuzzy states, the gen 3 added to the legacy system would still not get the advanced features. That would need a split system, or a single system with no legacy products.

On this specific subject, my head hurts now whenever I delve into its convolutions.

PS: Schrodinger’s Cat, anyone?:-)

A
Userlevel 5
Badge +5

I posted this in the other thread but came across this one so would post hear

 

the sonos decision has far more reaching consequences than a product brand dying. Sonos has highlighted to me that this can happen to any of these type of systems and many alternatives have been suggested. Sonos should really get together with all the major streaming services and devise a standard where software updates would only be needed to fix system bugs and stop playing catchup with the streaming services. It's in the intrest of these services as well because if the buying public sees the pitfalls of buying such devices to stream there music and that device becomes obsolete and does not run that streaming service again, the streaming service revenue will fall and the whole industry will most likely fail because the paying public will see the whole streaming concept as a flawed concept. Even before this has happened vynal is making a come back as well as cassette tape even. I'm sure the record industry would be affected as well as lost revenue in record sale as someone streaming will be more likely to listen to something different as opposed to actually taking a risk to buy the physical one.

I just personally see things differently ...and to standstill too long now would mean to stifle any technological innovation… we would still be using vhs video tapes if we all adopted a legacy system. I’m sorry, but you can keep your vinyl and audio cassette tapes.. I’m well past those things. At least let those that want to, race ahead. Thinking about it, Sonos is providing us here with the opportunity to standstill or innovate. So it’s perhaps the best announcement we ALL could have wished for anyway.🤔 

I'm not against progress, all I'm trying to say if I buy any particular system to stream that all these systems are open to the same issue sonos has just created. Until such time that the streaming services work more closely with the hardware manufacturers then this situation will keep coming up again and again. I want sonos to succeed but fear they won't be able to unless there is a dramatic change in there current direction, and what a great way to promote a longevity of a product that they could say they work in partnership with a 3rd party company.

B

@train_nerd I know from mine that echo dot can receive Bluetooth. Not sure than input can, so do check. Voice controlled play from input wired to line in jacks on Sonos will work, no doubt on that bit.

Just to add results of very simple testing I have been doing…I think others may have done this but I am working with my own equipment and wanted to test….

Use case assumes:

Legacy lock down on my Sonos system ( 5 play 5’s a Playbar, 3 Sonos Ones - no Zone Players/Connects).

All streaming sources (Tidal, Apple, Qobuz, Spotify) modify their API’s requiring new Sonos SW to continue to function on Sonos.  My locked down system can’t get it.  I.E.,will no longer support streaming or voice services (Sonos One’s on Legacy so new updates not possible).

Goal - find a way to use voice services and streaming sources with my speakers!!

Test result...

I have a iFi XDSD DAC (no I don’t work for them).  Connected it to a Sonos 5 using 3.5 line in connection.  

Paired my iPhone 11Pro via Bluetooth to XDSD.

Played Music though iPhone Native Player to the xDSD using downloaded music and streamed via Qobuz iPhone app.

Sonos iPhone app used to group speakers and adjust volume.

Used “hey Siri" to play music, increased/reduce volume, skip music…

Have not tried this with Alexa iPhone app yet but assume it will work as long as the app is supported by Apple iOS.

End result - as long as the speakers function and I have the controller available to group speakers my investment isn’t wasted.

Will wait till May to see what Sonos comes up with.

 

 

 

 

 

E
Userlevel 1
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Excellent thread -- thanks to the many helpful contributors. I feel better now about letting my relatively small system (Play5, Connect, 3 Play1s, Boost) stay in “Legacy mode” rather than trying to split them up somehow. I don’t use them for TV at all, and figure I should be able to use the line-ins on the Play5 and/or the Connect to handle any future “dongles” necessary for my limited streaming needs (TuneIn and Youtube Music/Google Play Music) -- right now I have two Chromecast Audios.

For clarity, as long as I keep them all in one connected system, Sonos won’t “force update” the non-legacy bits on me?

Another question -- what about the windows/android/iOS “controllers” -- do I have to do something to prevent them from getting updated in some way that will bork their compatibility with my “Legacy” system?

I will be watching the adventures with Roon, the Node2i and other options with great interest ...

chickentender

This may sound odd, but for anyone that is concerned about future streaming services for their Sonos network that does NOT currently include a Connect as part of their (soon-to-be-legacy) ecosystem, I’d strongly recommend adding one (2nd-hand will be very inexpensive now) just for the simple RCA line-in connection option…… 
If you  1) don’t have another Sonos speaker that has a Line-in option, it’s an obvious help, or 2) if you have a Sonos speaker with line-in that would simply be cumbersome/inconvenient/unsightly to permanently attach a line feed from another device to,  just due to placement, Ethernet limitations, or whatever reason. (edit: not that Ethernet is required, I just always try to provide it when I can.)
If LINE-IN is the future life-blood of preserving the core function of our Sonos speaker network (which seems likely) the Connect is nice for no other reason than you can place it wherever you like that can easily accommodate an Ethernet run and a line-in from another streaming device, whichever one might choose. Just food for thought.

K

Except for very brief and occasional interjections, I have now stopped participating in every other thread in this community except this one to conserve both my energy and my nerves. This one will hopefully then be my last hurrah here, and not something the like the last sigh of the last Moor looking back at Granada on being ejected from there at the end of the Spanish reconquista in the fifteenth century.

Had I known how many viewers it will attract I might have given it a better title than the present clunky one. That said - @Ryan S  or @Edward R - would you be able to change the title to “ The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it” to better reflect the plurality of views on the topic that are serving the thread so well? If yes, thank you.

N

@Noelle : what you have posted is copy of your post on the other thread that is there for venting frustration. This thread is for the next steps - finding solutions available to us that do not rely on Sonos except where that simply cannot be avoided, and there are many such solutions. 

On that basis, how can we help you?

@Kumar thank you, I definitely should have read the thread.

it definitely looks like this thread provides some great ideas or next steps for my review.

 

chickentender

@chickentender : that cool trick of looping the Connect using the tape out/monitor in jacks, where available, isn't one that many discover. Those that have extensively used tape decks and amps know about it, but that is dwindling presence here.

Indeed. I’ve not ran tape on my receiver in over 15 years and simply got so used to always (historically) utilizing my AUX for streaming sources, since they were once sort of a novelty and truly an “AUX” source, that it quite literally never occurred to me to use the good old forgotten tape jacks. Definitely a modern application of very useful circuitry. 

Ryan S
Userlevel 7
Badge +26

We’ve updated some articles around this topic and I know many of you in this thread are interested in what it looks like to have a split system, so here’s an article here on Using separate S1 and S2 Sonos systems.
 

Mark good posts by pressing the like button, and select the best answer on questions you've asked to help others find solutions.
K

@train_nerd

I just got around to seeing the excellent and balanced video, thank you. He echoes what I now think, and even have suggested to Sonos more than once this week about the lessons learnt about separating the computer from the durable.

More reinforcements and learnings from the video, that apply to the group on this thread:

  1. Multi room in sync may not be as important as Sonos would like you to believe. How many times do you really need/use that feature? He says in his case - once a year. 
  2. In any case, fifteen years ago, only Sonos could do this, now there are many that can.
  3. Use this lesson not just for audio, for all that comes with smart, web enabled interfaces. Else suffer the same consequence for every durable in the home as more and more of them are given web enabled smarts that are physically bundled into the durable like a fridge/TV/microwave/washing machine. Big takeaway there, IMO.

Bottom line, and there I am in full agreement - he says that the practice of dumping the durable just because the smart part can be made smarter is now being shown to be unsustainable given the perceived state of the planet in AD 2020 - even if it is affordable. I suggest this is something to be very aware of for every purchase in the future, not just of audio products.

And of course, this supports the ethos of this thread.

As an aside: I cannot believe that anyone that isn't insane is going to sell a smart car with driver assist features of different assist levels made in a way that the entire car becomes a legacy product after five years, when a more advance assist module becomes available. 

Or, no one sells smart houses where houses have to be dumped because smarter devices are available. What he says is just drilling this thinking downward to the smart durable level.

chickentender

And hopefully Ryan might get the go-ahead to share a bit of information sooner than May… if for no other reason than to tamp the firestarters a bit (and admittedly I fanned some flame in the first day or so) in these weeks coming. Methinks they doth protest too much.

Just to avoid confusion - whose sincerity are you doubting? Sonos or the firestarters?

Isn’t a matter of sincerity to me. I was talking about the main “clarification” thread and the firestorm there. As Majik mentioned, there are some in there seemingly concerned more about fire-fanning than about solving problems and getting good information. They’re free to. I meant that some more forthcoming  detail from Sonos sooner than later could go a long way in dousing the flame.
… or perhaps not. 

 

I’d rather see Sonos take more time to make sure the information they share is solid with no chance of changing between now and May.  Since this isn’t just about policy, but how the changes they are promising (the two separate systems and how they are controlled) are technical in nature, I’d want them to be able to go through some test runs and make sure the can deliver first.

Yeah, that’s precisely the opinion I’ve been coming around to, even as I typed the above post. Agreed.

U
Userlevel 2
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  • chickentender : yes, any hdmi converter / extractor  / splitter. The first box I  got was actually an hdmi->vga adapter . It just happened to have a 3.5mm audio out and I thought “ohhhh, chromecast plugs into hdmi .. grab the audio, line out into play:5

    And it worked. Sweet. The grouping is a bonus, stereo “pairing” was the icing on the cake. Others have pointed out better ways of pairing rather than cutting wires :)

S

We’ve updated some articles around this topic and I know many of you in this thread are interested in what it looks like to have a split system, so here’s an article here on Using separate S1 and S2 Sonos systems.
 

Would it not have been a good idea to have emailed all customers?

I would imagine lots will have given up with sonos and these forums for lack of any official comments/updates?

Connect Amp x 3, Connect x 1, Sub x 2, Playbar x 2, Beam x 1, Play 1 x 4, Play 3 x 1, Play 5 x 2, Boost x 1, Symfonisk x 2
K

 

 

I’m on locked-down v8.4 to preserve the use of my 5 or 6 remaining CR100s - each costing more than a netbook when i bought them.

Is it too much to ask that we continue to use our systems the way we used to without fear of the software perpetually trying to update itself.

As long as you stay in locked down mode, you should not even notice the Brexit except in places like this.

But that leads me to more questions, having only partially understood the recent discussions on this thread.

  1. In the quoted case, what will happen after May, if the lock down is removed? Will the system jumped to the legacy version, thereby bricking the CR100s? If it does, can it be taken back to 8.4?
  2. This is relevant to my situation that is a lot more common, with 3 legacy zones and 3 modern ones on the latest version. What will happen after May if all 3 legacy zones were to be in powered down state, and unwittingly I invoke an update that then gets applied to the 3 modern zones? The legacy zones would then be unreachable, correct? In that case, if I was willing to live with a split system, would that be possible? How?
  3. In the above case, if I did not want a split system, would it be possible to reverse the update and go back to one legacy system of 6 zones?
  4. And a final question, though not likely to apply to me - if I wanted to add a new product in May 2021, could I add that to the legacy system on the legacy version and run it as a 7 zone system?

Perhaps these questions have been answered, but while I understand more about this than many, I understand a lot less that the few who fully do so, so indulge me.

K

@MikeOinToronto : one hopes that Sonos will understand that while ambition with subtle moves might work, naked ambition will be counter productive. Or another way of saying this, sins of omission may get forgotten and forgiven, sins of commission are not likely to be, if exposed.

C
Userlevel 4
Badge +2


We can only try. Based on the track record of SONOS, it probably won’t happen, but they have painted themselves in a bit of a corner, so it can’t hurt to bring the topic to attention again.

I won’t be doing any big bang thing here but I know that the clock is now ticking on my current $7000 multi zone audio delivery system.  It would be prudent to plan and budget for a rebuild in then next 3-5 years. The NEXT GENERATION SONOS will be assessed, but I think I will be running more speaker wire this time. I can’t afford to replace my entire system every 5-7years.

I only bought the amps and added MonitorAudio speakers. Anyway, down the road the best way is to buy items with open standards and modular devices. Anything which relies on build computing power is going to run into the same problems earlier or later. They should have 2 separate product lines all together, one designed for multi room audio and one for cheaper internet connected speakers. Google and Amazon speakers take their abilities from their cloud services and include home automation that’s an area you can’t compete with. Even Microsoft’s Cortana couldn’t do it. I think anybody with a true multi room configuration wouldn’t mind to be required to run a service on a NAS / PC / Mac / Pi or a SONOS own dedicated device to provide all the local computing power. Then you have to replace or upgrade just one device in your whole system. If they set an expiration date on their products then the buying consideration is changing and more competition pops up  and it ends up with a race to the bottom. Amazon/Google can sell their items at cost because they make their money in other areas.

J
Userlevel 6
Badge +5

Also, there is one piece of info I can share for those who are looking to lock down their systems now and it concerns the Sonos IOS app and automatic updates raised by pwt

There is a method to stop the IOS Sonos app from updating whilst allowing all other apps to auto update as usual. It was discovered by patmill and is buried deep in the CR100 thread so I shall paraphrase it below:

Tryng to disable the Sonos iOS app from updating wasn't working for me.

Disabling background updates / cellular / etc didn't work, as I kept getting an update pushed to it.

Ultimately what I found that seems to be working is to do the following:

Use iMazing to get the Sonos app .ipa file from your device. Make a copy of it (just in case) and rename it to .zip 

Open up the zip file, and remove the iTunesMetadata.plist file and the META-INF folder (you should be left with only a folder called Payload, and an artwork file)

Rename the zip file back to an .ipa file

Using iMazing, remove the original Sonos app from your device and upload the modified .ipa file

Initially, it seems fiddly but if you are going through the lockdown procedures posted by footsore then you will already have done much of this.

This trick works a treat!

F
Userlevel 7
Badge +8

And to clarity, I am only referring to comms over the last ten days, starting with the strange way the recycling change has been announced - not the January fiasco. The latter was just down to ineptitude.

All very disjointed, the last ten days comms.

Disjointed is an understatement. Seems not that long ago when they were killing the CR100 that the experts were stating it was impossible to have two versions of the app from one company on the App store. (despite others already doing it).  Maybe a change of policy by Apple. 

 

I am sure one of the experts will pedantically point out where I am wrong. 

Owner since 2006: Legacy System(8.4):3*CR100:1*ZP80:4*ZP100:1*Play 5. - S1 System:1*ZP100:1*Z120. - S2 System:5*Amp:1*Port:2*Five:1*Arc,1*Move:1*Play Bar:1*Subwoofer:5*Play1 : Long live the CR100!
chickentender

Put simply. All of the past week’s realizations have further convinced me that a networked distributed computing model is inferior for home audio application. A server/thin-client model is far more sustainable.

exdirtfarmer
Userlevel 5
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Good Discussion. Thanks for starting the thread.

I am definitely going to stay Legacy.  I am still locked down to 8.4 and have had no issues at all so I am confident that the system can run for years on a Legacy version. I planning one more software update to prep some spares I have collected. Maybe sneak some bargains in the used market.  I will lock it down again untill the dust settles. As Streaming services drop, I will find a way to add devices to the “line in” as needed. Inconvenient, but workable.

I have the fortune of full control and automation of the system using Homeseer, so tasks can be automated and maybe homeseer will become a more important part of the control instead of the Sonos App. There has been plenty of 3rd party integrations that have taken off in the last 5years using the UPNP control and I don’t think Sonos can afford to mess with this. (ie, SmartThings, Control4, Crestron, etc).  A Hardwired Multi Zone Amp/Speaker setup will be my next whole home music system.

The question for me is, how long will Sonos keep the Legacy Software version available for New purchases?  If they make the “Legacy Mode” available on new items , I may purchase some more Sonos product, since they will work with what I have.  Once I can no longer add/group devices to my current system, I will lock things down and wait patiently wait for hardware to die. I’m confident I should get 3-5 years out of this system yet. Plenty of time to wire the house for dumb amps and speakers at the core.

Just another “First World Problem”.  Not going to blow a fuse over it, instead I will turn it into another fun integration project.  My “ZonePlayers” should not have kept functioning this long anyways.

 

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