The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

Show first post
This topic has been closed for further comments. You can use the search bar to find a similar topic, or create a new one by clicking Create Topic at the top of the page.

570 replies

K

 

 I am still locked down to 8.4 and have had no issues at all so I am confident that the system can run for years on a Legacy version.

 

That helps, and is good to know. How many years now? No issues with streaming service functionality till now?

@Loose Moose : The upstream Connect would play music before the downstream via Line In Connect plays it because the downstream one has to do a analog to digital and then back to analog conversion. In addition and more contributory as a cause, it has to first build a buffer to ensure that other Sonos devices on its system that may be grouped with it are able to be in sync - this, even if the grouping function is not being used. 

exdirtfarmer
Userlevel 5
Badge +5

 

 I am still locked down to 8.4 and have had no issues at all so I am confident that the system can run for years on a Legacy version.

 

That helps, and is good to know. How many years now? No issues with streaming service functionality till now?

 

Since before April/2018

We mainly use Spotify, Internet Radio, and still some local library.  If I was having any issues I would take the update and lose the features in the PC desktop.  I am just seeing how long I can go.  Lost the 8.4  App on an IPad but all the Androids still working with a force install of the 8.4 APK file.

 

@Loose Moose .  The Line In will become our savior, me thinks.  I like your Idea of feeding one with a New Sonos device just to get access to streaming services that get hosed on Legacy.  There will be lots of options to plug in, unfortunately you may be grouping with one app and selecting music with another.  Sonos will likely have to allow multiple instances of the App, or maybe there will be 2 versions on the App Stores, one for SONOS Legacy and one for SONOS V2. We will wait and see.

Powered by Firmware/Software 8.4 with Classic Blue Desktop Controller + CR100 + Ipod Dock + Homeseer 3 Sonos UPNP Plugin by dcorsus
K

Further to the above, I am even now running an Echo Show 5 - now that a display is cheap - into my Connect Amp line in because Sonos still has not brought the Alexa integration to India. It works brilliantly to the extent that I use the Sonos app only when I want to play music from the NAS. It also confers the Connect Amp with bluetooth capability for when that is needed - the Show can take inputs via Bluetooth. And the thick icing on the cake is what no Sonos unit can do even today - display album art for the track being played.

All hail Line In...:-).

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

Progress (not) update:

Received Echo Dot today to trial.  Checked out wiring/other AUX inputs with other non-Echo devices and function appears to be fine.

Pretty much same result as reported earlier with Echo Input device. Other devices typically need 30-40% scale volume setting on A/V receiver for comfortable listening volume. Both Echo Dot and Echo Input require 70-80% to achieve comparable listening level with Alexa App volume set to 90%. For me it works, but not well….  It makes me worry as I speculate pushing A/V receiver too hard (maybe it’s not working harder since input signal is low, but don’t know enough about how these work).

 

 

Am I missing something obvious here.  You say the Alexa app is at 90 percent.  Why is this not at 100 percent.

I’ve never ran inputs that have variable output gain at 100% as a matter of course. It normally leads to signal distortion when using the max capable output that a given device can handle/provide. I’ve no direct experience with Echo devices and this is just old rule of thumb for my part, but I’d wager the signal is cleaner when backed off. Might not be true here for plenty of reasons I’m not aware of.

The discussion goes back to digital volume controls and the way they function.  And this was primarily an issue with 16 bit volume controls I believe that are less theoretically relevant these days.  But even if you are 100 percent correct it still is likely the reason why his output is much lower.  If there are two volume controls in the chain they will add together.  He is attenuating ten percent of the signal before it gets to the preamp.

Now he may choose to use 90 percent on the app (for real or imagined sound preferences) but then the preamp will have to be turned up higher for the same overall volume.  His concernvseemed to be that his volume knob on the preamp has to be much higher with the echo than other devices.

 

C

I wrote a polite reply, but then lost it because this Sonos board software sucks. Now I’ll be frank.

I spent money and time on your stupid devices. What I got was a reminder that the days are gone of purchasing any tech system and being able to just use it. I mean, not be plagued with forced updates, scoundrel spying, etc. If only your advertisements included the truth: “when the mood is on, just reach for the controller, and.. oh, update your system now or suck eggs!” Moment gone, erection lost. Every goddamned time I went to use the ZP100 I was met with this, and had to dig out my Sonos username and password.

I get it that internet streaming services can change protocol parameters, new services become available, or Sonos decides to collect user data, but the forced update is an insult. And who among us is OK with a vendor recording data on us? Gee, haven’t played any music in 36hours--must be traveling… ripe for a burglary?

So what is going to happen now? Will they issue firmware that stops dialing their mothership, so I can finally use this box in peace, to play music from my local NAS, phones, and aux inputs? Or will I get constant nags about being out of support, and “buy our new equipment that has microphones and cameras so that we can sell data on your behavior habits to our ‘partners’!?” Will I have to configure my routers to deny all outgoing traffic from the ZP100? Will that break it, so it says “configuration error, call Sonos”?

C
Userlevel 6
Badge +5

I’m happy to report that my systems operating at 8.4 still work great, safe and sound from any IP traffic to and from sonos.com and its many sub-domains (hence, no firmware updates are possible).

Interestingly, the various zone players attempt to contact the mothership hundreds of times per day even though I have stats-sharing turned off. Oh well, the pi-holes and the gateway take care of that.

I am very happy that the 8.4 desktop controller is still full-featured and that all radio streaming I attempt to listen to works as expected despite the above. Legacy controller binaries can be found out there… if you look hard enough. 

On iOS, SonoPhone and SonoPad are great alternative controllers that work on a wide variety of Sonos firmwares without complaining. So if you have an installation with lots of firmware revisions, this App is the way to go - it just works - unlike an up-to-date Sonos App which only will work with relatively recent firmwares. 

Regarding security updates, I would not rely on Sonos to focus too much on that. Rather, I’d take common-sense countermeasures to limit the potential impact of a Sonos hack. Limiting access to necessary ports, known-good sites, blocking others, etc. Additionally, my Sonos do not get access to my NAS, they only get access to a copy of the music share, hosted on a 2.5” spinner hanging off a AP. 

I would not hold my breath re: Sonos giving users a wide choice re: legacy firmwares. Based on past performance, I’d argue we should be grateful that management reversed its former lockstep “one firmware to rule them all” approach and at least gave people Legacy mode. That’s a step up from the intentional software bricking of the CR100 series. 

I suggest to everyone to research how to island your system from Sonos once you have all the hardware you are looking for. Granted, once firmware gets corrupted or whatever all bets are off. But in the meantime, my CR100s continue to work great thanks to battery upgrades, the streaming services delight me, and all is good in the neighborhood.

A

Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

I don’t have any bricked units, but I’ve been running Sonos kit locked off for a while now, purely for local streaming. I’ve also left the system locked from updates off whilst allowing internet streaming, and that works OK.

Yesterday I was streaming music from my NAS to a Play 5 using a Chromecast Audio into the line-in - works fine. However, since Sonos enforced the log-in side of things, it seems to me (I could be wrong) that they are now holding more settings at account level, rather than locally. For example, there’s a setting on the devices for max volume, which I would have just held locally. However, AFAICS the device now has to be able to access the internet for this to work, otherwise it doesn’t ‘stick’. Consequently, I’ve set it back to the usual 100% - just in case. I have no intention of keep opening my system up just to make a minor change.

It would be interesting to know how a bricked unit would work, though...

I hadn't even thought about settings held at the account level and of having to be logged into my account.  Interesting. 

 

I don't want to sound too jaded against one company but it does seem to be an issue to consider when purchasing any smart tech.  If I buy a smart fridge and that company no longer supports the model (Or goes out of business) does my whole refrigerator no longer work or does just the smart features not work.

As Kumar mentioned earlier, I think that this applies to all smart tech, so I share your concerns… I’ll stick with my old reliable non-internet connected fridge for now, I think :wink:

C
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

I do know that there are new products that will support things the older products just can't. I really can't talk about what.

Very interesting, that subtle shift! Of course, the user that this was sent to has said he has no clue about either the 96 or the 24, and he has no desire to know about it. Which is fine, many have no wish to, they just want the music to play.

For what seems like forever, Sonos has maintained that “there is no science behind Hi Res”, which contains the 96/24 things referred to in the quote. And therefore Sonos will not incorporate that in its speakers. 

 

Here is a detailed article about the inner workings and the details of ZP80/ZP100

Under the Hood: Sonos brings multi-zone digital audio to life

pwt
Userlevel 7
Badge +20

I’ll keep these systems running, even if I eventually have to use AirPlay and/or Line-In for everything, as streaming services become incompatible with the Sonos firmware.

I will make no further Sonos purchases. Whole house audio systems are not a throwaway purchase.

Frankly, though, if Sonos is losing customers like me, they’re in really deep trouble.

@pwt : A question. How much of a concern is the security thing, if Sonos cuts legacy systems completely loose as they will, sooner or later? Streaming service issues will be visible and can be addressed as you suggest. Security holes will not be visible. Any thoughts? Can security issues be reduced if one uses just the local NAS and streaming devices that are wired to line in, instead of streaming directly to Sonos boxes? I don’t think so, but no harm in asking silly questions?

I’m not concerned about Sonos security issues under most usage scenarios. There is no inbound connection to the speakers from outside the local network unless one has misconfigured the router. That’s not say there are no possible exploitation scenarios, but they’re a very long way down the list of things to worry about.

Since Sonos has now shifted its position on updates following the backlash, this concern may be moot anyway.

I agree with all the rest quoted, though I suspect they will be aiming to get a new generation of customers for products that will have used the now released 1024 Mb space. The business case for this decision HAS to be based on that overcoming any damage that folks like us can cause.

Agreed.

I’ll reiterate that dropping support for the older devices is a function of how Sonos has chosen to engineer its products. It’s absolutely not a law of physics, despite the Sonos line that it’s to do with the capabilities of the older devices.

In their shoes, I’d improve their software system architecture to accommodate different versions (like most distributed systems do), otherwise they’ll face exactly the same ugly scenario with the next wave of deprecations.

I just want Sonos to not go down before my migration is over, and that is on a time line of years, not months because I believe that my well looked after Sonos kit has a lot or running left in it. So ironically, I hope that Sonos pulls off this gamble successfully.

I think Sonos’s survival as the company we know is in the balance. I can still see people buying speakers in ones and twos, accepting they will be end-of-lifed within as little as five years. I can’t see large numbers of people continuing to buy whole-house systems, or building out large installations over time. They will look elsewhere … ideally at systems which decouple the core audio delivery from the streaming smarts.

And, for the ones and twos scenarios, there are LOTS of other options, many of which are cheaper, some of which are better.

I’d say it’s 50:50.

4 x P:5 | Sub | 4 x P:1 | 3 x Connect | 2 x Boost | Connect:Amp | 2 x One | Amp | Move | Port
K

John MacFarlane led Sonos to its present position in the market from day 1 till retiring a couple of years ago.

A paraphrase of his very recent tweet on the subject that should encourage all here to keep going in the direction we are planning:

“Most of his 14 player system is impacted other than a few new items. He intends doing nothing until Sonos has something in an update which makes him want it.”

Obviously then, he also did not fall for the Trade Up trap.

chickentender

@Kumar … here you are, in all it’s janky and hurried glory. :joy:

My simple new Bluesound/Sonos hybrid. (I’m sure I’ve forgotten something, but this is my “simple” setup.)

 

K

@RickInHouston1 :Good for you. In my case, just the sight of a unit with an exposed circuit board makes me nervous - I am no techie:-)

@spydrwebb : happy to help. Beyond a point, ranting serves no one.

pwt
Userlevel 7
Badge +20

To the second part, I think that it is precisely these options that has left Sonos feeling hemmed in, hence the gamble to reach for the 1024 Mb development potential to find a way out of the squeeze. If 50:50, it is a hell of gamble though.

The gamble is also that they can out-innovate Amazon, Google and Apple (among many others) in this space. I’m skeptical.

The trade off for this is that they had a significant brand value differentiator in their full support for legacy devices, and the ability to build out diverse systems over time with confidence. They chucked that in the trash and there’s no retrieving it.

4 x P:5 | Sub | 4 x P:1 | 3 x Connect | 2 x Boost | Connect:Amp | 2 x One | Amp | Move | Port
K

The gamble is also that they can out-innovate Amazon, Google and Apple (among many others) in this space. I’m skeptical.

 

Against the contrary opinions of some enthusiasts here, I have believed that ever since I started using Echo devices wired to Sonos Line In jacks and have said so often enough here. And Sonos line in jacks only because they were at hand; buying new, it would have been quality active speaker input jacks. I am counting on these line in jacks to remain viable for a long time to come, notwithstanding any future antics of Sonos short of a meltdown. 

Time will tell. In some ways I feel for Spence, looking like being caught in a second consecutive inflection point, after the BlackBerry one.

K

Digressing a little - I don't know if MBA schools still use the case study approach, but this one looks like the making of classic one, going all the way back to 2005, then to the introduction of Echos, to the IPO, and then to this event. It is still in the making, and ought to be ready for classes starting in a few years, regardless of how things have played out by then.

Majik

@Cisume : Hard to see that happening, and if it does, Sonos being an early adopter - so in its absence cherish the Line In jacks on Sonos legacy products.

In the mean time I think I may dive into their API 

Maybe look into their firmware.

Would be interesting if someone with the knowledge did a validity check on their “There is not enough flash storage to keep updating”.

I believe the Sonos firmware is very locked down. I’m not aware of anyone who has yet broken through that security in any meaningful way.

And, even if they had, and there was some reasonable quantity of flash storage free (which I doubt) without knowledge of Sonos’s future product plans, there’s no useful way to make a judgement. on how much is enough.

I think it is safe, and rational, to take them at their word on this.

Cheers,

Keith

Majik

 

Which is why this thread is about non Sonos ways ahead, once the legacy products die.

The hardware of the legacy products I don’t see them to die at all :wink:

But until then I would hope to see an open standard for in house audio distribution where you can mix and match devices from different manufactures and pick the software to your needs. Similar to the home automation standards. Then you are not locked in to a specific ecosystem of a particular manufacturer and you are going to have oodles of 3rd party solutions.

And that isn’t unreasonable in the longer term. And the original purpose of our Patent systems was to provide a route towards this whilst also protecting some of the interests of inventors. Yes, this system has been abused over recent decades (largely by armies of lawyers working for behemoth tech companies or, worse, patent troll companies) but the fundamental view that we should protect inventors from having their ideas stolen and exploited by others is still important. Without that we stifle innovation.

Sonos does have inventions in this case, which are protected by patents. 15 years ago no-one was doing properly synced multi-room digital audio. Others tried and failed. Sonos were the first to come up with ways to make it work.

Now there are ways that an industry standard can emerge but, if it involves patented Sonos technology then it’s up to Sonos whether they decide to licence it to that end or not. Longer term (in about 5 years time, I think) their key patents will expire and, I suspect, open standards will start to emerge. It doesn’t surprise me that Sonos are being aggressive in protecting their IPR at this time, especially given their success in the space over the last decade.

Cheers,

Keith

C
Userlevel 6
Badge +14

Investigate cron as a way to run scheduled tasks.

Another way to shut down is the command:

sudo halt -p 

J
Userlevel 6
Badge +5

I’m gonna stick my 2 penneth in here, and I will state these are all suppositions on my part.

I also apologise if this has been covered before as I have not fully read this thread but…...

Let’s take the Play 5 for example - in modular form it’s some woofers and tweeters, an amp, and a CPU and Ethernet / WIFI board.

In ‘normal use’, to use the line in, the CPU detects a signal and then the user has an option in the Sonos controller to select that input.

I would guess that any Play 5 by default (whatever state its in) will not play anything from that line in source unless it is part of a Sonos system.

I think the trade up program stinks - yes, there’s lots of talk of recycling responsibly but who knows what happens once the ‘defunct’ Play 5 is dropped at the local recycling centre. Or, who knows whether some users can’t be bothered and chuck their old Play 5s in to the bin for landfill / incineration?

To me, the elegant way out of this for Sonos is if that Play 5 is put in to recycle mode, simply send a code change that allows it to act as an active speaker for users to connect a phone / cd player / Echo or whatever via line in and keep using it or pass it on to people who can use it - but it will no longer be part of the Sonos system.

 

N
Userlevel 6
Badge +5

I have a question that I cannot see answered, or if it has been, I’ve missed it (entirely possible).

 

Some time ago on my “legacy” system I lost the ability to stream from my iPhone directly to my system. I the future legacy landscape that is promised, if I add in a new product in ‘legacy’ mode, will I be able to stream with Airplay to the grouped speakers or not?

 

Great thread by the way, best I’ve seen yet. :)

 

Cheers

Simon

Hey Simon, consider that  in the future Apple could roll out an Airplay 2 update to your Apple devices that could impact your ability to use them with your airplay2 compatible Sonos devices in legacy mode. 

S
Userlevel 3

My current plan is to run as legacy for as long as possible and then use the line to one of my play 5’s for any music over the internet when services start to fail.

I haven't tried but I am assuming/hoping I can just group the line in player with other units and play as I would normally.

Options are either amazon or google,  as I have an echo dot in a hallway I will probably stick that in a play 5 for now and see what I think to quality.

I do have some concerns given the cynicism of the current sonos position.  For instance will you be able to add to a legacy system or if your everything falls over altogether will you be able to create a legacy system from scratch. 

R
Userlevel 5
Badge +7

 

@RDog : To repeat what I have said elsewhere - Since the Port can work with any product via its output jacks, what’s to stop you from buying a bunch of cheap Ports ( I am sure that the price point of the Port has nothing to do with costs), and using them with your choice of third party speakers? You get all the Sonos functionality, while the Sonos top line is damaged - and even blown out of the water once everyone starts adopting this obvious approach.

 

The device I envisioned would have no line outs or other audio outputs - all comms with (legacy) Sonos devices would be over the network.

Therefore, you could not use it with “your choice of third party speakers”, only with Sonos devices.

 

 

For Sonos to sell a cheap Port type device, they simply have to allow it to work only with Sonos products - which then should be dumb speakers. 

 

Yes, that’s the idea. Allowing the formerly smart speakers to live on as good sounding networked speakers having had the smart and streaming functionality off-boarded to new, inexpensive (less-durable) modules.

 

 

Amazon and Google can sell similar at cost - or even below cost - because they do not need the top line from these products. Sonos does not have that luxury.

The opportunity for Sonos is to disaggregate their expensive smart speakers physically - replaceable smart modules sold at or below cost, docked into speakers that sound as good as they do today, like the old iPod dock speakers, but with proprietary comms. Then the Sonos smart module can be replaced every 3-4 years even, while the speakers can be built for decades of service required by their higher price points.

 

They could indeed take that approach for new models, but not past or present, hence the approach outlined above, delivering on that philosophy but for legacy and current devices.

K

 

Second, I will apologize that I don't completely fit the description in the OP, as my system does not consist of mainly legacy devices and I would like to see further updates to my newer ones, but I still have to resort to this thread as it seems the only place to turn currently :). So even though I might stray off the original topic, it's not my intention to hijack this thread, I am just trying to have an actual conversation without being shouted down or drowned out.

 

 

There is no apology due as long as you are part of a constructive conversation. 

R
Userlevel 5
Badge +11

@Ryan S you have quoted variations of  “We haven’t shared all of the details of how the current legacy process is happening. Let’s get through May first before….” a number of times now. It looks like that there may quite a large amount of information released in May (and hopefully some significant changes to the proposed course of action :relaxed: ) plus new releases of software.

I am concerned that there may be a very limited amount of time to decide upon a pragmatic way forward before software is released that accidentally and Irrevocably changes ones environment. By accidentally I mean scenarios such as friends or family coming round with the latest version of the app (maybe they only have modern kit) on their phone and (helpfully) forcing an update of the system. Can Sonos confirm that customers will have time to decide what to do and that there will be safeguards to prevent an accidental action or methods that enable customers to switch between the options?

 

chickentender

@Kumar, thanks for the photo of your setup. Can you stream Spotify using an Amazon Echo Show or are you limited to Amazon? 
 

I plan to keep my system on legacy software and see how long things keep working. After that, not sure what I’ll do. Being on a continuous “upgrade” cycle is not appealing. I own a Connect Amp (actually ZP-120), Connect and gen 1 Play 5. I also own 2 new Sonos Amps, a product I really like as I use it with both TVs because I dislike sound bars. We love the ease of use of Sonos. It’s the one piece of tech my wife has no trouble using. I always knew this day would come, but I guess I avoided thinking through the implications. This is a real disaster for Sonos. I’ve used their products for 12 years, but have started looking at other options - a situation I couldn’t have imagined 2 weeks ago. I don’t know how they’ll sell their more expensive products now. I aspired to own a stereo pair of gen 2 Play 5s. I have 1 now, but won’t be buying a companion for it as my current one could be “retired” by Sonos in just 3 years. I also was thinking about 1 more Amp, but that won’t be happening either. Sonos really needs to come up with a solid solution to this, but they don’t have much time. I don’t see how this won’t significantly impact their business. Wondering how much time my 4 Play 1s and my Sub have left.

I’d imagine, as we’ve been discussing, if you’re remaining entirely legacy in your network, you have many years left for all your stuff. If you want a Play:5, look to the used market. I just had an offer accepted for 100 bucks… Quite the bargain. If you’re currently happy with how everything works and aren't aching for some sort of new API enhancement or voice feature, then I reckon you’re good to go. In fact, these legacy system could be far more stable for all of us remaining with them - fewer updates and changes mean fewer opportunities for for a wrench in the works as updates roll out.

Terms & ConditionsCookie settings