The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

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chickentender

Regarding getting used equipment to fill in holes in your system….how can you tell if it has been put into recycle mode?

What happens in this process? Do users actually have to return the speaker (or whatever) to sonos to get the 30% off or could the user put it into recycle mode to get the 30 % off and then sell that item on ebay etc.

 

 

See this: https://support.sonos.com/s/article/3573?language=en_US
I’d suggest simply requiring a seller to show you the unit connected to a controller and working. Check the speaker in room settings to confirm it’s not be recycle tagged. If a seller doesn’t want to or claims they cannot, move on.

 

Further, it’ll be apparent right away if it’s been recycled. “During the countdown and once the product has been deactivated, the product cannot be re-added to any system or used to set up a new Sonos system, even if the product has been reset to its factory settings. You could just connect to it with your controller and you’ll know immediately.

chickentender

And another interesting poke at Sonos over on the rant thread:

I did not receive the notices as all my products are modern.  Had i not seen some youtube videos i would be completely unaware of what is going on.  I guess we can look at this two ways.  One, they didnt want to unnecessarily worry unaffected customers.  Two, they would rather keep the issue hidden from new customers.  I guess which one we believe is closely related to whether we believe management actually cares about their customers or not.

Seems to be another telling comment.

I’ve successfully avoided the rant thread all day. That said, I might peek in and see if there’s still a show. 

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

Progress (not) on Echo Input wired to AUX analog input to A/V receiver (rather than Line-In) on ZP90.  Unsure how this reconciles with known low input of Sonos devices described earlier; had planned to trial Echo Input wired to Line-In on Connect AMP linked to A/V receiver also wired with Echo Input device.

Posted to Amazon Forum:

“….Obvious design problem when using 3.5 mm jack to RCA phono input AUX input to A/V receiver. Not apparent that the device output is at typical required Line-In level. Experimenting here as alternative to Sonos components which will be used on legacy devices by Sonos, particularly Play 5, ZP-90, Connect Amp using Line-In input.

Sonos aside, the input signal is waaay too weak to point of device being a "fail" because of this fault. Amazon support not aware of impedance rating/spec for device nor recommended pre-amp for device. Gotta experiement wih pre-amp at my (and your) own risk. FWIW, they offered new device, but no reason to believe that would solve this significant problem for A/V system AUX input users, or others. Disappointed, urgently needs a fix since it really limits adopting Alexa ecosystem in my case.”

Feels like making it work is getting too messy.

 

Not 100 percent clear on what you are describing.  But if you are saying you are trying to put an amazon echo device to av receiver you would go line out on the echo to one of the line ins on the av receiver.  Any line in other than one marked phono as that would be used only for turntables.  I have done this before.  I may be misunderstanding as my echo dots only have line outs but I believe the higher up echo devices have both line in and line out.  


Used Echo Input device 3.5 mm output (only one) to female 3.5/RCA male phono adapter to A/V receiver AUX input on Anthem MRX710. Volume setting on Echo Input set at maximum, still waaay weak FWIW.  Hope that clarifies.

BTW, turns out multiple reports of this on Amazon forum for this device.  Not clear my post yet went thru on their site….in review queue or speculate (premature?) omitted on merit poor report; unknown.

Ok.  Makes sense now and sounds correct.  Any possibility that an additional volume control in play ie. Playback software or Alexa app.  Also is the sound just quiet or distorted as well.

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

So far, quiet only.  Other inputs typically need 20% total volume (linear) for casual listening. Echo Input device needed 60% scale to be marginally acceptable audible (Low).  No known other options to increase output other than volume setting in Echo app, which was only one offered by Amazon support.  Pre-amp? I don’t know.  Makes me wonder about impedance issues.  Did not detect distortion at moderate audible levels. 

Thinking that I observed some reports that Echo Dot was okay, so I’d welcome actual experience reports using similar set-up with Echo Dot; cheaper than pre-amp addition?

I did this prior to buying my sonos connect and it worked fine for me.  Echo dot out via 3.5 to stereo RCA cable to aux input on my integrated amplifier.  Worked well but I wanted sonos integration so I bought the sonos connect.  Also did this in the bathroom outputting to a tivoli pal radio via 3.5 to 3.5 cable and this worked fine.  Could be the Amazon input is defective, could also be a defective cable.  Or perhaps the Amazon input is different from the dot but I can't see why they would design it differently.

K

I know I would feel much better about Sonos going forward if they created a reasonably cheap bridge device to do this.  

@MikeOinToronto 

This echoes what someone in the vent thread has suggested as well:

The “box” attaches to both the legacy network and the update capable network. Call it “Bridge 2” 

What this box has to do - since legacy products are allegedly not capable of doing - is to receive music streams from one system and hand it off to the other. That’s it - a little WiFi dongle that is version less and therefore never to be upgraded; ideally it should go directly into a main socket.  And Sonos should give it away free to any account that has a split system registered to it. 

And instead of coming out and giving “n” number of reasons why this cannot be done, the direction should be towards making it happen. 

But the “can do” attitude seems to be missing from Sonos these days; but I have a solution that also gives me album art, so I really don't care any more.

L
Userlevel 2

Excellent lateral thinking there; unfortunately the music from the two systems so grouped will be out of sync. And when grouping isn't a need, faffing around with two systems in one household will get irritating over time.

 

@Kumar: Why would they be out of sync?

Sonos cannot be expected to have updated 3rd party music services in all of their devices in perpetuity. Hardware permitting, I do expect my connect:amps to work with their line inputs as long as Sonos is solvent, as you indicated is a reasonable assumption given their comments. So what I will need, at some point in the future, is a new internet audio streaming device that I can hook up to my connect:amps via the line input. Today I tried that using my Echo Dot & Amazon Music. It works, but it is cumbersome and functionality & services are limited.

So now I’m thinking along the lines of @Stanley_4: what about hooking up a (non-legacy) Sonos Port to one of my legacy connect:amps. The Port can handle all the streaming/music services, and the connect:amps can handle the grouping & amplification. The only output of the Port would be to the connect:amp and would not need to be synced with any standalone Sonos speakers. Seems like this would be a reasonable solution, at least in my scenario with 8 connect:amps. Sonos still gets me to spend an extra $400 (at a time of my choosing), but I don’t have to buy 8x Sonos Amps to replace my legacy hardware. @Ryan S: will this be an option?

chicks

Sonos speakers with nice artist/album info via the new LMS Material UI.

 

K

More interesting stuff from the venting room, a quoted message from Sonos Support:

Hello Michael,
I know the older products can't support audio sampled at 96 KHz with a 24 bit depth. That would be one thing that newer products with more processing power and a larger buffer could handle that the older products can't. I don't know if there are plans for newer products to support high res audio, but that is one example of something the older products can't do that the newer ones could.

I do know that there are new products that will support things the older products just can't. I really can't talk about what.

Very interesting, that subtle shift! Of course, the user that this was sent to has said he has no clue about either the 96 or the 24, and he has no desire to know about it. Which is fine, many have no wish to, they just want the music to play.

For what seems like forever, Sonos has maintained that “there is no science behind Hi Res”, which contains the 96/24 things referred to in the quote. And therefore Sonos will not incorporate that in its speakers. 

Many that have exposure to the subject - theoretical and practical - believe that Sonos is correct and have vociferously argued against those that claimed that this lack in Sonos automatically meant that Sonos is not as good in sound quality and can never be as good in that area, compared to modern speakers like Bluesound etc, that do have the capability to play Hi Res music. I have been one of those that have argued in favour of Sonos, and I continue to hold that Sonos and I are correct. There are some threads here on that subject that have acquired legendary status.

However, Sonos has been hammered for many years by the media at large for not being a Hi Res capable speaker. Which says how ignorant the media is, but that isn't the point.

Now the Sonos quote above seems for the first time to be opening a window to the possibility of Hi Res Sonos speakers to be released after the legacy products are left behind in May. No more than a small opening to be sure, just a chink, but till now that window was firmly shut.

Many that supported a no Hi Res Sonos will have egg on their face if that happens; so will I, but won’t be here in a significant way to feel embarrassed:relaxed:  And some of these supporters that remain, may well execute some fancy moves to re-align themselves with a Hi Res Sonos. Of course, the Bluesounds of the world may also do stuff like “ Welcome Sonos to the world of Hi Res” and allied nonsense, and indicate that the Sonos stance in the past was just sour grapes.

Why am I speculating on these lines after seeing the Sonos quote that fuelled it? For those that will remain with legacy products to know that the science will not change when Sonos does; believe that even if you see Sonos ads in future that claim different; that science has been rigorously tested and found to be robust.

K

@MikeOinToronto : I say free because this functionality should have been in the other paid for boxes in the first place. Free also to rebuild the trust and the reputation built over 15 years, that has been destroyed in a month.

And you would be surprised at how much can be packed into a dongle these days - far more than could be in a Connect in 2010.

The thinking is for the legacy speakers to retain existing smart functions and not be just dumb speakers, in either stand alone mode, or when playing as a group of legacy system zones. Making them dumb would enrage another set of users. The dongle is needed only for combined in sync music play across both systems.

C
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

 

I admit (I’ve never bothered to investigate) I do not know (is it known?) precisely how each added device has, historically, updated to the latest software/firmware version when it is added to user’s network. My assumption was always simply that it was brought online, contacted Sonos during the setup process whilst being added to an existing network (or alone if that’s the case) and received that latest firmware. But I don’t know if that is the case. I'm genuinely asking if that’s already known, how the initial firmware update proceeds. Does it even come with a factory version that’s capable of operating without the update (It’s been at least 2 or 3 years since I added new device), or must it be loaded at the onset. And, in either case is it possible it can be loaded from other devices on the network it finds, or simply from the controller version present? (I’m still assuming not, but this opens many doors/questions: choosing version at the controller level, maintaining version on the user legacy network, etc.).

 

 

At the beginning you added players without any SONOS interference to your system. You went to their website downloaded the PC/Mac controller install and everything was managed locally. Their might been an option to register but if so it was not required. A few weeks ago I added a ZP100 I forgot about new in the packaging. Firmware version 2.xx.

here you can see how it used to be :

SONOS 2005 Support

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

Progress (not) update:

Received Echo Dot today to trial.  Checked out wiring/other AUX inputs with other non-Echo devices and function appears to be fine.

Pretty much same result as reported earlier with Echo Input device. Other devices typically need 30-40% scale volume setting on A/V receiver for comfortable listening volume. Both Echo Dot and Echo Input require 70-80% to achieve comparable listening level with Alexa App volume set to 90%. For me it works, but not well….  It makes me worry as I speculate pushing A/V receiver too hard (maybe it’s not working harder since input signal is low, but don’t know enough about how these work).

 

 

Am I missing something obvious here.  You say the Alexa app is at 90 percent.  Why is this not at 100 percent.

R

Hi guys, all very interesting reading, and glad to see people working on ideas, which will probably work for now, based on the assumed position of Sonos. What we need is a roadmap though, not just point solutions based on the here and now. I'm not impacted this time, but it is likely I will be next time, and the time after, how many separate systems might need to be managed? When the next products go legacy they can't go down to this Mays codebase without loosing functionality, so Sonos needs to then support 3 versions, original legacy, new legacy and modern. Which means either 3 systems, or the legacy sytem supporting 2 different software versions, something they say they can't do today. There are some big implications to either Sonos or their customer base which they need to answer or things will only get worse

J
Userlevel 5
Badge +4

 

 

I’m on locked-down v8.4 to preserve the use of my 5 or 6 remaining CR100s - each costing more than a netbook when i bought them.

Is it too much to ask that we continue to use our systems the way we used to without fear of the software perpetually trying to update itself.

As long as you stay in locked down mode, you should not even notice the Brexit except in places like this.

But that leads me to more questions, having only partially understood the recent discussions on this thread.

  1. In the quoted case, what will happen after May, if the lock down is removed? Will the system jumped to the legacy version, thereby bricking the CR100s? If it does, can it be taken back to 8.4?
  2. This is relevant to my situation that is a lot more common, with 3 legacy zones and 3 modern ones on the latest version. What will happen after May if all 3 legacy zones were to be in powered down state, and unwittingly I invoke an update that then gets applied to the 3 modern zones? The legacy zones would then be unreachable, correct? In that case, if I was willing to live with a split system, would that be possible? How?
  3. In the above case, if I did not want a split system, would it be possible to reverse the update and go back to one legacy system of 6 zones?
  4. And a final question, though not likely to apply to me - if I wanted to add a new product in May 2021, could I add that to the legacy system on the legacy version and run it as a 7 zone system?

Perhaps these questions have been answered, but while I understand more about this than many, I understand a lot less that the few who fully do so, so indulge me.

Thanks Kumar. You’ve succinctly distilled the implicit questions in my late night ramblings - particularly points 1 and 4.

 

My CR100s are clearly what has made me stay at v8.4 and it’s almost become a personal challenge to nurse them to the end of their extended lives in defiance of Sonos otherwise trying to kill them off. (I’ve just remembered that my 6th one is on life support permanently plugged in in my garage).

 

I had planned at some stage to reunite my systems on a common software version once the CR100s eventually died (possibly to populate my kids’ first homes with excess devices), but this glimmer of hope for unification and stability for the future is not as clear in my mind as i had naively hoped. (Korea anyone? :laughing: )

For anyone considering Bluesound, I can only reccommend it 100% for integration with Sonos.  I bought it primarily as a ripping NAS but was accidentally supplied with the 2i version of their Vault NAS instead of the older Vault 2. I can use it in isolation through some AptX HD headphones late at night and can also feed bluetooth sources into it to play throughout that Sonos system.  The app is really comprehensive and there’s now a remote control too.  In fact the only negative is not being able to install Plex server software on it. BUT Sonos may be relieved to hear that I’ve no plans or need to add any more BlueSound kit to my setup.

18 zones, 29 devices and counting
K

Disjointed is an understatement.

I have known Sonos since 2011, and I have seen a much better Sonos on the comms front, which was the basis for my comment about the last ten days.

Now if someone wants to claim that this way of communicating is par for the course for Sonos based on how they did the CR100 thing, I have nothing to say because not owning CR100, I have no idea how it was communicated.

@melvimbe : it becomes very hard to rebut points made by parsing just one part of a post, even more so when that post is made in the context of earlier posts, so I will not even take the time to respond to such parsing.

All I will say is that at a time when there are unprecedented events happening, borders closing, Euro 2020 postponed to 2021, and an endless such list of lockdowns or postponements, it is extremely strange for Sonos to pretend that they will do business as usual and proceed with an event that will need a massive ramp up of support resources globally - even going by the definition of globe per Sonos being the US and Western EU. I just see this as denial  of the kind I see even now in some notable Western countries even today, and just as much as I see it in India. Everybody wants to the pretend that the light at the end of the tunnel is daylight, when it could well be an oncoming train on the same track.

I also understand the need to keep up the pretence in a forlorn hope of talking up the stock price - if so, that has not worked because there has been no uptick there since the announcement. That indicator is being driven by a tsunami totally out of Sonos control now.

Is it possible that I am wrong? I would be first person to hope that I am, as I have also said repeatedly.

The sensible thing to do would be to put things on ice till the external environment stabilises - no one is calling for any reversals.

K

@chickentender : I doubt this applies to things like Alexa app. And it definitely does not apply to the Connect/Port - indeed that one has a fixed output level option in it, where it is always at 100%.

As do almost all CD players, by the way.

C
Userlevel 7
Badge +17

 

But I’m sure that if someone made such a box that was maintained by an open source community, that could stream from all the well known music services and then present itself to Sonos as a music source, people would buy in to that.

 

It already exists (runs on Pi’s inluding the 20 usd zero w, and Windows, Linux, Mac).  Software cost 0.  Open source and community support.

Streams  Spotify, Deezer, Qobuz, Napster, Tidal, Pandora, Pocketcasts, Radio Paradise, Tunein 

No limit on local library size.

Controllers via web browsers, apps for android, Mac,  You control update schedule.

Would that be the LMS solution that you mention? If so, is there a definitive article you can reference somewhere or is it a Google job?

Takes me back - rather gutted that only a few months ago I sold a couple of SliMP3 units on ebay…..

Cheers

Yes.  I’m not aware of any specific guides, I’m afraid.  Look for the slimdevices forum.  Setting up the server software is fairly straightforward for Windows and MasOS.  Using a Pi is a bit more complicated as you need to choose between 3 options - Picoreplayer, Max2Play, or install the distro on Raspian (most complex).   Once you have LMS running then you need to investigate how to install the upnp/dlna bridge plugin on LMS.   Some extensive reading probably pays off. 

Despite my prejudices, Beyonce's Cowboy Carter is pretty damn good. There, I said it
A

 

I don't even expect it to be free, just low cost.  If a 200 dollar box would keep legacy products viable I would be good with that.  I don't see it as a dongle but more along the lines of a box that does the processing for legacy devices, essentially turning them into dumb speakers that just play the music stream.

I don’t see why the legacy speakers have to be dumb… They’ve been streaming in sync and working fine for over a decade, so there’s no reason why they can’t handle most things - just not the new facilities. If all the non essential stuff was stripped out of the legacy build, they have even more space available.

chicks

The MConnect app (free Lite version shown) will play lossless FLAC from your NAS, Qobuz and Tidal to your Sonos, Chromecast and UPnP renderers.  Phone and tablet versions available.  No LMS or any other server required, just the app and your renderers.  Unfortunately, it doesn’t recognize Stereo pairs of Sonos speakers, which gives LMS an edge, though LMS is considerably more complex to implement.

 

 

chickentender

Excellent lateral thinking there; unfortunately the music from the two systems so grouped will be out of sync. And when grouping isn't a need, faffing around with two systems in one household will get irritating over time.

 

@Kumar: Why would they be out of sync?

Sonos cannot be expected to have updated 3rd party music services in all of their devices in perpetuity. Hardware permitting, I do expect my connect:amps to work with their line inputs as long as Sonos is solvent, as you indicated is a reasonable assumption given their comments. So what I will need, at some point in the future, is a new internet audio streaming device that I can hook up to my connect:amps via the line input. Today I tried that using my Echo Dot & Amazon Music. It works, but it is cumbersome and functionality & services are limited.

So now I’m thinking along the lines of @Stanley_4: what about hooking up a (non-legacy) Sonos Port to one of my legacy connect:amps. The Port can handle all the streaming/music services, and the connect:amps can handle the grouping & amplification. The only output of the Port would be to the connect:amp and would not need to be synced with any standalone Sonos speakers. Seems like this would be a reasonable solution, at least in my scenario with 8 connect:amps. Sonos still gets me to spend an extra $400 (at a time of my choosing), but I don’t have to buy 8x Sonos Amps to replace my legacy hardware. @Ryan S: will this be an option?

This is my intent using a different system to feed my legacy Connect, rather than a Port or other modern Sonos device... I do not want two Sonos networks. At all. I’d much rather quick-toggle between two open apps on my mobile (one for legacy Sonos, one for the streaming box) as opposed to (what I’m imagining) having to likely disconnect and then re-establish connection with a “modern” Sonosnet device, and back and forth. Just using the Sonos app for speaker settings and grouping changes is much preferable, and then moving to whichever app controls the new “brains" of the operation will be simpler. 
I tried this today using my TV for streaming Pandora as well as PLEX from my NAS and it was honestly simple as could be. I’m beginning to feel fine about now merely leaving Sonos as a wireless speaker network and nothing more. This means there’ll be no more follow-on purchases from me for Sonos’ to rely on as they have relied on from most of us unfortunately; my speaker network expansions will be “legacy” based and in the form of 2nd-hand (and laughably cheap in comparison to new) sunsetted devices that we’re already seeing on the market. The more I consider it all, the more comfortable I am with it, in practice and in wallet.

 

C
Userlevel 6
Badge +5

Hah.  Had my first radio failure today: tunein content stopped playing.  
 

A review of the pi-hole logs shows that I needed to keep one Sonos subdomain unblocked to keep enjoying tunein radio. Enable contact to sslvalidator.sonos.com in order to avoid this issue.  Now tunein works great again.

 

hope you all are well.  

S
Userlevel 5
Badge +5

@Kumar .  Thanks for this.  I am using the ‘other’ thread to satisfy my anger and this one to start thinking ahead.

There is some great info above, mostly from people who understand way more about Sonos than me but I think it is a bit of a shame we don’t have more detail from Sonos to work on.  There are quite a few statement like ‘if Sonos do this then we can/can’t do this’  or if Sonos don’t do this then we can/can’t do that.

Anyhow, I am really looking forward to this thread being the most viewed when we do know that detail.  For now, I am going to not buy any more Sonos products, calm down...watch….and wait.

Thanks again Kumar.

 

K

 I hope some of them buy speaker wire.

LOL. That made my day:-). I hope that any that do, don't fall into the audiophile snake oil nonsense around speaker wires. 

Let alone IT, I am not even an engineer; but I have spent a decade afflicted by severe audiophilia. I cured myself of that, came to Sonos in 2011 to stay cured, and all was good till this deja vu of getting into the workings of what I would really prefer to see as just boxes that make music.

Ken_Griffiths

The obvious question to anyone here that has a bricked 5: what happens if you plug a phone playing music into the line in jack of a 5? Does it even boot up if power is applied?

These are actually very important questions for thread followers, that someone here ought to be able to answer in five minutes - anyone that opted for Trade Up and has a bricked unit lying around. What happens if power is applied to the unit? If it boots up, as my offline units do, are the Line in jacks then still active as they are in my case? Perhaps this will work for bricked units only If Autoplay option for the Line In was on at the time of bricking...

I have some slight concern with some of the things 'hinted' at here…

I thought the Sonos trade-up “agreement” was part of a firm undertaking to also responsibly recycle the Sonos product as part of receiving the 30% discount voucher. In fact Sonos also offer the customer a shipping label to return the goods for recycling, if there are no recycling options open to the customer in their local area. 

Would the action your proposing here Kumar risk users 'perhaps' breaking that agreement and cause them the (slight) possibility of losing their discount, or perhaps being asked to pay it back, if they continue to use their device via the line-in?… I’m not sure that it’s wise to propose such a course of action, as that surely leaves people in a slightly precarious position, and do you really want to advise people around the globe to try to keep their devices running after entering their devices into the trade-up process? At least that’s how I am reading the suggestion here and others appear to be hinting at it too.

It’s absolutely fine though, if the user chooses not to trade-up for the discount on offer. I think that should be made clear.

Just saying ..🤔

A

@chickentender and others: I admire the lateral moves that you guys are inventing to move around this situation. Most of it, I will have no clue how to achieve, and of course I don't grudge you that.

But I can't help thinking that even to implement the simple kind of plug and play solution I am looking at, how much of the user base that is out there will have the knowledge and guidance to implement - folks that come to online discussions are just a very small percentage of the base.

Given that, I sense a May tsunami that won't abate in a hurry as things start rolling out.

….At the end of it all, I don’t think it needs to be a big deal at least in practice….

If you want to stay up with all the latest features, in particular voice control, then it probably is a big deal… All I’ve ever wanted to do was listen to my music from a NAS, which is why I locked it all off a while ago, so I can honestly say that it doesn’t affect me in the slightest. That doesn’t stop me feeling very sorry for those who feel angry or deeply disappointed, though - I do feel that Sonos has let them down badly.

K

@chickentender :Lol. Parallel stories in part - Audiophilia, 2000-2010. Took a while to arrive at my premier kit - Quad 909/99 that fed Harbeth speakers. Source Rega P5/Marantz SACDP. In time Sonos replaced it all, though I retained a KEF and Quad passive pair for two Connect Amps, that are still soldiering along very well. I remember sending a Quad CDP for service to the UK, that was promptly done; I still miss the legendary bombproof 909, but it ended up overbuilt for my use case, so needs must kind of thing. Sonos has been brilliant - allowing orders of magnitude expansion in access to great music, with no audible sound quality compromises. Till now it just worked except for minor attention to things like reserving IP addresses. Now I have to again break my head about more than the music to keep the music playing. I haven’t the time or the inclination to rinse and repeat, so no more after this.

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