The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

K

I will start this thread with a few caveats:

First, this thread is not for rants. There are plenty here for those, and there is no bar on opening new ones.

Second, the thread is directed for the subset of users that have a large investment in legacy products, and are content to see their Sonos systems as music systems that offer stable streamed music from either a NAS or from the net, and have no expectation of more bells and whistles - just that things continue to work as they are working today. I happen to be in this boat as well, as someone that has three out of six zones running very well on legacy products that I simply cannot afford to jettison until the hardware dies.

Third, this thread is based on facts, some of which have been coming to light only over the last 48 or so hours. It is therefore incomplete to an extent, and may even be wrong in places. Feel free therefore to clarify/correct/add as necessary - and I specifically invite @Ryan S  to do so. But, no rants please - they have a place, but this is not it.

All that said, this is the solution I intend to proceed with and recommend here:

Opt for a legacy system operation in May, that will run legacy and modern products, exactly as these run today; no faffing around with two networks. No more enhancements, but expecting Sonos to honestly fulfil their recent promise of all bug fixes that the legacy products can accommodate. Ditto for what needs to be done to accommodate changes driven by at least the mainstream service providers.

By a happy coincidence, all legacy products have line in jacks. So if something even happens at the streaming service end that cannot be accommodated in legacy products, I am confident of finding some device that can be wired to the line in jacks of these, that will still allow streaming from the culprit service to work including in grouped mode with all other products in the system.

The streaming from the local NAS will not have any issues in this mode, other than hardware failures including that of the NAS, and a key assumption here is that NAS changes will not need a Sonos software update.

Although Sonos has said that new products can be added to such a system, I do not see how this is possible once new products come installed with versions that are beyond the frozen legacy system one. Unless Sonos is not going to sell any new products in future with versions beyond the 2020 legacy one - I doubt that. And once a product comes with the latest version, adding it to a legacy system without rendering legacy products inoperable is going to be tricky because it will involve first separating the one system into two; I also admit to being a little fuzzy with this bit. In my case, this is all moot; I have no need for another zone. As an aside, I am someone therefore that is not of much interest to Sonos!

I also assume that if anyone at any time in the future wanted to jettison legacy products for any reason, all they will need to do is leave all such products powered off, invoke updates and the result will be a Sonos system updated to the day they do the invocation. The concern here for me is different - I need to have an ironclad way of NOT updating my system before I am ready to separate or jettison legacy products, and this needs more insights into how things will work on this front in future.

I am pretty sure that this way ahead will work in my use case and I suggest it will also work for many that are heavily invested in Sonos legacy products, that do not want to write it off or to trade up to new products just to retain all existing functionality.

Yes, it involves losing future enhancements/features, but once we accept that these essentially are music boxes that will keep doing all they do today, that should be an acceptable trade off, I suggest. It is to me, for sure.

So this way, this event will be just a minor inconvenience, and I expect to be able to use all my existing products till the hardware fails.

What this event has convince me though is to now look at/recommend smart systems that are truly modular in the sense that the smart bits can be periodically replaced at low cost, while the core “dumb” electronic hardware can be of such build/after sales support, that it justifies the higher investment in the consequent price, if better sound quality is also needed than what the smart front ends can alone provide. But that's for the future.

 

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570 replies

A

 

it definitely looks like this thread provides some great ideas or next steps for my review.

 

@Noelle Good luck; it is a long and therefore unwieldy thread, an outcome arising out of the nature of an online discussion, so take your time! I am trying to address that by forking the thread into two, as you will see on a post on this page, but even if that helps, we are stuck with the present levels of unwieldiness that nothing can reduce. A legacy problem:-)).

@Ryan S @Edward R : there seems to be something wrong with the link to the last page of this thread, it does not allow me to go directly to the last page from the thread list. I have to open the first page, and then click the last page there, a very tiresome process. I don’t know if this is affecting just me, of course; can you help?

Thanks.

No it’s happening to me, as well….

K

And more fun finds in the vent thread, quoted below, with my response there included in the quoted:

Quote

DK_Madsen wrote:

 

There is even someone wanting to buy tradeup-bricked sonos play 5’s, he offers to pick them up at people’s home in his area and pay 20USD for them.

My guess is that he has found a way to reactivate them and want to sell them for profit as functioning legacy devices or maybe just reactivate them enough to be able to stick a echo dot on the back, hook it up to the jack port and sell it as an echo device.

 

 

Are there any reports of the bolded working? It is possible that whether it will depends on what was set for their line in setting at the time they were bricked by Sonos after being marked for recycling.

My testing of unbricked units suggests that it may even be possible to get these to do perfect sync multi room, by wiring a cheap Dot to each and multi rooming the Dots via the Alexa app.

End of quote

The mind boggles...and if it works, the planet will be grateful, never mind in how small a way.

K

The obvious question to anyone here that has a bricked 5: what happens if you plug a phone playing music into the line in jack of a 5? Does it even boot up if power is applied?

M
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Seeing once again this perfect Echo sync that drives via Line In the Sonos sync across two Sonos systems, raises the question I have asked before - how does Echo achieve this trick? I have a suspicion that it isn't done at a local level at all like Sonos does; somewhere in the Alexa cloud, the Echo group is registered as such - as evidenced to an extent by the fact that Echo groups, unlike Sonos ones, survive power cycling. The music streams then are synced in the cloud and sent at the exact same time to each Echo device in the group. That the music also plays in sync at distant destinations after passing through a bunch of devices en-route demonstrates how well this works. If that is indeed the way this works. And if so, there may not be any Sonos patent infringement by Amazon. And given that Amazon may provide Sonos with a solution to this significant issue of integrating split systems, Sonos may not even want to approach any sleeping dogs there, even if there are any such.

Which leads to one of the biggest issues leading to my lack of trust with the company now.  I agree that two echo dots may end up being a good solution with the echo acting only as a mechanism for syncing legacy and new.  If the solution is so simple, why won't Sonos come up with a cheap bridge device to sync between these.  It wouldn't then require line in devices to do this.  Perhaps Amazon does this in the cloud and sonos does not have the resources.  If yes, state that but don't imply it can't be done.  Once again we have customers proving that the belief that this is strictly a technical issue are wrong. 

Again I believe this is a company that wants to change its business model.  Fair enough, I don't own the company.  But don't pretend it is purely a technical issue.  Both Roon and echo solutions seem able to fix the final issue that is really bothering customers, syncing legacy and modern systems.  My guess is Google devices could do the same.  And these will be the solutions customers will turn to if sonos don't come up with their own solution.  I think that Sonos leadership just has to understand that most people will not just throw away their legacy products to help sonos raise their revenue and make a serious internal effort to maintain full functionality in all devices.   Essentially demonstrate that they are still leaders in this technology.

 

M
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Just wanted to add one other thought to this thread as it seems people are coming up with some viable  and clever work arounds.  All of these ideas depend on the fact that Sonos really has tried and not come up with a technical solution to allow legacy products to continue to function correctly. What if these issues were really seen by management as an opportunity to bring in a different business model.  So if the two echo dot solution resolves the technical issues and this allows customers to keep legacy gear, do you not suspect Sonos to then disable something in the legacy system so that echo dots cannot sync with modern systems.  If roon can control both legacy and new systems would a future sonos update not break the link to roon for legacy systems.  Of course sonos management would not acknowledge it but if they have decided that they want to go to a five year life cycle for business reasons, changes to the sonos software will help support that business goal, not work against it.  So my guess, if this is the case, is that as customers find clever ways to keep their products running, sonos will just write an update to block this feature.  Again, this is based on my belief that this decision is business driven, not technical.  I can see the announcement in May.  "Due to low memory limitations, legacy products will not be able to support integration with third party products such as Amazon Echo, Google Home, or Roon."  And bang, all these solutions no longer work.

K

@MikeOinToronto : one hopes that Sonos will understand that while ambition with subtle moves might work, naked ambition will be counter productive. Or another way of saying this, sins of omission may get forgotten and forgiven, sins of commission are not likely to be, if exposed.

M
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I know I would feel much better about Sonos going forward if they created a reasonably cheap bridge device to do this.  It would reassure almost everyone who believes this is just a business decision.  And if we as customers are finding work arounds I do believe a billion dollar company with some of the most experienced engineers in the world in this area could find a brilliant and beautiful solution.  It likely would even allow me to start buying their products again.

K

Back in 2011, I played around with airplay using Airport Express boxes wired to the HiFi system I then had. It worked very well when it did, but music play was not as stable as I needed it to be and I switched to Sonos.

Is Airplay 2 better enough to be a useful option for those having such modern products that have it that are affected by the Sonos brexit? I don't have any such, so I can comment or advise.

T
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Progress (not) on Echo Input wired to AUX analog input to A/V receiver (rather than Line-In) on ZP90.  Unsure how this reconciles with known low input of Sonos devices described earlier; had planned to trial Echo Input wired to Line-In on Connect AMP linked to A/V receiver also wired with Echo Input device.

Posted to Amazon Forum:

“….Obvious design problem when using 3.5 mm jack to RCA phono input AUX input to A/V receiver. Not apparent that the device output is at typical required Line-In level. Experimenting here as alternative to Sonos components which will be used on legacy devices by Sonos, particularly Play 5, ZP-90, Connect Amp using Line-In input.

Sonos aside, the input signal is waaay too weak to point of device being a "fail" because of this fault. Amazon support not aware of impedance rating/spec for device nor recommended pre-amp for device. Gotta experiement wih pre-amp at my (and your) own risk. FWIW, they offered new device, but no reason to believe that would solve this significant problem for A/V system AUX input users, or others. Disappointed, urgently needs a fix since it really limits adopting Alexa ecosystem in my case.”

Feels like making it work is getting too messy.

 

M
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Progress (not) on Echo Input wired to AUX analog input to A/V receiver (rather than Line-In) on ZP90.  Unsure how this reconciles with known low input of Sonos devices described earlier; had planned to trial Echo Input wired to Line-In on Connect AMP linked to A/V receiver also wired with Echo Input device.

Posted to Amazon Forum:

“….Obvious design problem when using 3.5 mm jack to RCA phono input AUX input to A/V receiver. Not apparent that the device output is at typical required Line-In level. Experimenting here as alternative to Sonos components which will be used on legacy devices by Sonos, particularly Play 5, ZP-90, Connect Amp using Line-In input.

Sonos aside, the input signal is waaay too weak to point of device being a "fail" because of this fault. Amazon support not aware of impedance rating/spec for device nor recommended pre-amp for device. Gotta experiement wih pre-amp at my (and your) own risk. FWIW, they offered new device, but no reason to believe that would solve this significant problem for A/V system AUX input users, or others. Disappointed, urgently needs a fix since it really limits adopting Alexa ecosystem in my case.”

Feels like making it work is getting too messy.

 

Not 100 percent clear on what you are describing.  But if you are saying you are trying to put an amazon echo device to av receiver you would go line out on the echo to one of the line ins on the av receiver.  Any line in other than one marked phono as that would be used only for turntables.  I have done this before.  I may be misunderstanding as my echo dots only have line outs but I believe the higher up echo devices have both line in and line out.  

T
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Progress (not) on Echo Input wired to AUX analog input to A/V receiver (rather than Line-In) on ZP90.  Unsure how this reconciles with known low input of Sonos devices described earlier; had planned to trial Echo Input wired to Line-In on Connect AMP linked to A/V receiver also wired with Echo Input device.

Posted to Amazon Forum:

“….Obvious design problem when using 3.5 mm jack to RCA phono input AUX input to A/V receiver. Not apparent that the device output is at typical required Line-In level. Experimenting here as alternative to Sonos components which will be used on legacy devices by Sonos, particularly Play 5, ZP-90, Connect Amp using Line-In input.

Sonos aside, the input signal is waaay too weak to point of device being a "fail" because of this fault. Amazon support not aware of impedance rating/spec for device nor recommended pre-amp for device. Gotta experiement wih pre-amp at my (and your) own risk. FWIW, they offered new device, but no reason to believe that would solve this significant problem for A/V system AUX input users, or others. Disappointed, urgently needs a fix since it really limits adopting Alexa ecosystem in my case.”

Feels like making it work is getting too messy.

 

Not 100 percent clear on what you are describing.  But if you are saying you are trying to put an amazon echo device to av receiver you would go line out on the echo to one of the line ins on the av receiver.  Any line in other than one marked phono as that would be used only for turntables.  I have done this before.  I may be misunderstanding as my echo dots only have line outs but I believe the higher up echo devices have both line in and line out.  


Used Echo Input device 3.5 mm output (only one) to female 3.5/RCA male phono adapter to A/V receiver AUX input on Anthem MRX710. Volume setting on Echo Input set at maximum, still waaay weak FWIW.  Hope that clarifies.

BTW, turns out multiple reports of this on Amazon forum for this device.  Not clear my post yet went thru on their site….in review queue or speculate (premature?) omitted on merit poor report; unknown.

M
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Progress (not) on Echo Input wired to AUX analog input to A/V receiver (rather than Line-In) on ZP90.  Unsure how this reconciles with known low input of Sonos devices described earlier; had planned to trial Echo Input wired to Line-In on Connect AMP linked to A/V receiver also wired with Echo Input device.

Posted to Amazon Forum:

“….Obvious design problem when using 3.5 mm jack to RCA phono input AUX input to A/V receiver. Not apparent that the device output is at typical required Line-In level. Experimenting here as alternative to Sonos components which will be used on legacy devices by Sonos, particularly Play 5, ZP-90, Connect Amp using Line-In input.

Sonos aside, the input signal is waaay too weak to point of device being a "fail" because of this fault. Amazon support not aware of impedance rating/spec for device nor recommended pre-amp for device. Gotta experiement wih pre-amp at my (and your) own risk. FWIW, they offered new device, but no reason to believe that would solve this significant problem for A/V system AUX input users, or others. Disappointed, urgently needs a fix since it really limits adopting Alexa ecosystem in my case.”

Feels like making it work is getting too messy.

 

Not 100 percent clear on what you are describing.  But if you are saying you are trying to put an amazon echo device to av receiver you would go line out on the echo to one of the line ins on the av receiver.  Any line in other than one marked phono as that would be used only for turntables.  I have done this before.  I may be misunderstanding as my echo dots only have line outs but I believe the higher up echo devices have both line in and line out.  


Used Echo Input device 3.5 mm output (only one) to female 3.5/RCA male phono adapter to A/V receiver AUX input on Anthem MRX710. Volume setting on Echo Input set at maximum, still waaay weak FWIW.  Hope that clarifies.

BTW, turns out multiple reports of this on Amazon forum for this device.  Not clear my post yet went thru on their site….in review queue or speculate (premature?) omitted on merit poor report; unknown.

Ok.  Makes sense now and sounds correct.  Any possibility that an additional volume control in play ie. Playback software or Alexa app.  Also is the sound just quiet or distorted as well.

T
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So far, quiet only.  Other inputs typically need 20% total volume (linear) for casual listening. Echo Input device needed 60% scale to be marginally acceptable audible (Low).  No known other options to increase output other than volume setting in Echo app, which was only one offered by Amazon support.  Pre-amp? I don’t know.  Makes me wonder about impedance issues.  Did not detect distortion at moderate audible levels. 

Thinking that I observed some reports that Echo Dot was okay, so I’d welcome actual experience reports using similar set-up with Echo Dot; cheaper than pre-amp addition?

M
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So far, quiet only.  Other inputs typically need 20% total volume (linear) for casual listening. Echo Input device needed 60% scale to be marginally acceptable audible (Low).  No known other options to increase output other than volume setting in Echo app, which was only one offered by Amazon support.  Pre-amp? I don’t know.  Makes me wonder about impedance issues.  Did not detect distortion at moderate audible levels. 

Thinking that I observed some reports that Echo Dot was okay, so I’d welcome actual experience reports using similar set-up with Echo Dot; cheaper than pre-amp addition?

I did this prior to buying my sonos connect and it worked fine for me.  Echo dot out via 3.5 to stereo RCA cable to aux input on my integrated amplifier.  Worked well but I wanted sonos integration so I bought the sonos connect.  Also did this in the bathroom outputting to a tivoli pal radio via 3.5 to 3.5 cable and this worked fine.  Could be the Amazon input is defective, could also be a defective cable.  Or perhaps the Amazon input is different from the dot but I can't see why they would design it differently.

K

@train_nerd : Is the echo dot volume set to full, to start with? So that the only thing that varies the sound levels in the room are is the Anthem volume slider.

The echo dot output is a standard line level one that works with a range of external speakers so you should not have issues except with sophisticated kit like Sonos and some amps that have adjustable line in sensitivity. In Sonos, this often needs the line in level to be set to maximum, 10. 

Line in level signal exchanges do not have impedance issues.

The other possibilities: defective Echo, defect in the line in jack on the Anthem - try another -, defective cable. Eliminate possibilities one at a time is the way to address defects.

All my Echo devices have worked flawlessly with a wide range of external speakers/devices like JBL Flip, Minirig portable speakers, and of course, Connect and Connect Amp. Sound levels are not an issue.

And re the pre amp - these are needed only to boost signals from turntable to line level for amps that do not have phono sockets that have a preamp downstream of the socket. Do NOT feed the Echo output to a preamp; the latter will probably be damaged.

K

I know I would feel much better about Sonos going forward if they created a reasonably cheap bridge device to do this.  

@MikeOinToronto 

This echoes what someone in the vent thread has suggested as well:

The “box” attaches to both the legacy network and the update capable network. Call it “Bridge 2” 

What this box has to do - since legacy products are allegedly not capable of doing - is to receive music streams from one system and hand it off to the other. That’s it - a little WiFi dongle that is version less and therefore never to be upgraded; ideally it should go directly into a main socket.  And Sonos should give it away free to any account that has a split system registered to it. 

And instead of coming out and giving “n” number of reasons why this cannot be done, the direction should be towards making it happen. 

But the “can do” attitude seems to be missing from Sonos these days; but I have a solution that also gives me album art, so I really don't care any more.

M
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I know I would feel much better about Sonos going forward if they created a reasonably cheap bridge device to do this.  

@MikeOinToronto

This echoes what someone in the vent thread has suggested as well:

The “box” attaches to both the legacy network and the update capable network. Call it “Bridge 2” 

What this box has to do - since legacy products are allegedly not capable of doing - is to receive music streams from one system and hand it off to the other. That’s it - a little WiFi dongle that is version less and therefore never to be upgraded; ideally it should go directly into a main socket.  And Sonos should give it away free to any account that has a split system registered to it. 

And instead of coming out and giving “n” number of reasons why this cannot be done, the direction should be towards making it happen. 

But the “can do” attitude seems to be missing from Sonos these days; but I have a solution that also gives me album art, so I really don't care any more.

I don't even expect it to be free, just low cost.  If a 200 dollar box would keep legacy products viable I would be good with that.  I don't see it as a dongle but more along the lines of a box that does the processing for legacy devices, essentially turning them into dumb speakers that just play the music stream.

K

@MikeOinToronto : I say free because this functionality should have been in the other paid for boxes in the first place. Free also to rebuild the trust and the reputation built over 15 years, that has been destroyed in a month.

And you would be surprised at how much can be packed into a dongle these days - far more than could be in a Connect in 2010.

The thinking is for the legacy speakers to retain existing smart functions and not be just dumb speakers, in either stand alone mode, or when playing as a group of legacy system zones. Making them dumb would enrage another set of users. The dongle is needed only for combined in sync music play across both systems.

K

These discussions are moot though, since Sonos won't do squat on either of the two lines, so, leaving this bridging to Amazon/Google/Others via Sonos Line In, moving on...

K

Progress (not) on Echo Input wired to AUX analog input

Feels like making it work is getting too messy.

 

In summary, and for others contemplating this use with Sonos Line In:

Keep at it, in my case it worked out of the box every time I did this, with the time it took to connect the stereo cable at both ends being the only extra time required, once Sonos unit line in settings had been set. There is something you are doing wrong, or there is a defective Echo, cable, cable connection, input jack or setting somewhere. If you follow a logical step by step fault finding process, you will know exactly where the issue is.

One caveat, just for the record: I have not used the Echo Input - my Dots, Spot, and Show 5 have worked equally well in the manner I have described..

Although unlikely, there may be something in the lowest priced product in the line up, the Input, that is responsible for what you are seeing. But this is the least likely possibility.

K

More musings:

After over fifteen years of having worked for a couple of big US corporations, the landscape they play in is very familiar, and based on that there is something strange about Sonos, now a listed corporation. Every US corporation I have across has a Chairman of the Board of Directors and a CEO. Very often, and this is a source of controversy in the US, and a practice almost never followed in the EU, the same person assumes both offices; the controversy is because the Chairman is supposed to counter balance the CEO and if both offices are in one person, that is the end of the counter balance - and the entire board in such cases tends to become the plaything of the all powerful Chairman and CEO.

What is strange about Sonos, is that it has a Board of Directors, it has a CEO - Spence - who is on the Board, but there is no one named as Chairman of the Board! Search as I might, I haven't found one.

If there was a Chairman that took his job as seriously as these worthies often do, I would not be surprised if he had by now muzzled Spence so that the latter does not keep putting his foot in his mouth and destroy shareholder value even further. Or, if the situation does not look to getting back on track, he would even fire Spence; the only loyalty of a good Chairman is to shareholders, and they can be quite ruthless. 

But, there is no Chairman - also, Spence isn't designated Chairman and CEO.

Any one that finds who this missing Chairman is, kindly point him or her out via a link.

See this link that mystifies me; note that Chairmen and CEO kind of egos won’t hide that fact, and their usual designation is Chairman and CEO. Or something more grandiose.

https://investors.sonos.com/corporate-governance/default.aspx

K

The obvious question to anyone here that has a bricked 5: what happens if you plug a phone playing music into the line in jack of a 5? Does it even boot up if power is applied?

These are actually very important questions for thread followers, that someone here ought to be able to answer in five minutes - anyone that opted for Trade Up and has a bricked unit lying around. What happens if power is applied to the unit? If it boots up, as my offline units do, are the Line in jacks then still active as they are in my case? Perhaps this will work for bricked units only If Autoplay option for the Line In was on at the time of bricking...

The answers are important because if such a unit works as a dumb device, that is solid reassurance for the rest of us here that there is nothing that Sonos can do to brick our Connect/Connect Amp/5 by any act of commission. Acts of omission like not providing updates is their hands, but if acts of commission that prevent the units from working as dumb products when supplied a signal by Line In are not doable, then it does not matter to these units if Sonos even were to go bankrupt and their servers were to go offline. 

Selecting Line In Autoplay ON for all legacy units via the controller today, and leaving it ON forever, may then be a very good precaution to take. It can't hurt, but may end up being a hardware life saver.  

K

Shades here of movies or shows like The Orville, where Isaac the robot suddenly drops to the floor by a central server released kill command - if I remember right, he then plots a way out by pretending to be the bad robot when unbricked, and then finds a way to go offline while still remaining functional, so the central server cannot reach him any more...he does this because he is on the side of the good guys:-)). And gals!

A

 

I don't even expect it to be free, just low cost.  If a 200 dollar box would keep legacy products viable I would be good with that.  I don't see it as a dongle but more along the lines of a box that does the processing for legacy devices, essentially turning them into dumb speakers that just play the music stream.

I don’t see why the legacy speakers have to be dumb… They’ve been streaming in sync and working fine for over a decade, so there’s no reason why they can’t handle most things - just not the new facilities. If all the non essential stuff was stripped out of the legacy build, they have even more space available.

K

If all the non essential stuff was stripped out of the legacy build, they have even more space available.

That brings forth a thought that is close to a rant...Sonos ought to have foreseen that memory constraints would lead to a day when they will have to break their promise of having sold a multi room audio system, even while much hardware was still working. And via self discipline, they should have quarantined such memory as would be needed to keep 32mb units still able to be on the same system as 1024 mb units, albeit with lower functionality at the 32mb unit level. That would have meant that today we would have less of the fluff and eye candy, but not this break in service.

Is this too high an expectation of foresight driven self discipline? Events have answered that question, I suppose.

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