Either I'm misunderstanding or this scheme is just encouraging people to throw away perfectly good Sonos equipment.
The way I read it, you "trade up" by selecting an eligible device and it then gets deactivated by Sonos for you to bin.
This is surely ethically wrong?
I don’t use a music service - I use a NAS and internet radio.
It can handle it - no problem.
Well, how generous of you to feel your anecdotal account of personal usage speaks on behalf of millions of other customers!
Mate Sonos can write middleware for the streams and do it in the cloud they just want to get more money from existing customers - it’s a cynical move. I also don’t need to apologise for my own personal usage case. It’s my equipment, I didn’t lease it. It’s not my problem they didn’t bargain for the whole of life support costs.
I also see it as a bit of a stupidity test as well to be honest.
Who in their right mind would gladly agree buy a new device to replace the one they already have (and still works) and agree to let Sonos brick there old one at the same time so they can’t sell it.
I totally agree. You have something you are happy with and works functionally, but if you spend about the same you originally paid, you can get something that does functionally the same. You also get to "recycle" your old product because Sonos destroys it.
Imagine if this was a second hand car. Ford offers you the chance to buy the new model for £19,995 and as part of that deal, we'll crush your old car.
It’s actually is a greedy ploy - it’s saying we don’t want more cars out there because we can’t sell them a new one.
This program is ridiculous. I'm not going to get rid of my perfectly good two Play 5 first gens to get Airplay 2. Lol I hope the next step will be not supporting older devices at all and being deactivated by the company. I spent over a $1500 for all my speakers and gave out eight Sonos speakers to all my family members two years ago for the holidays. I am huge fan of Sonos but this promotion is just a money grab to get people to upgrade to the newer models while taking a perfectly fine model off the market. Imagine if you went to a Honda dealership and bought another Honda and they said we will give you a $500 off for the being a loyal customer but you have to total your old car. What the hell?
+22
Lots of talk about everything from the moon landings being fake to the Earth being flat.
Sonos has an excellent reputation for keeping future plans quiet which leads to trolls trying to get responses by posting all kinds of stuff.
You will save yourself a lot of grief if you filter out all the predictions based on nothing but bile and speculation.
Only reliable sources on future plans I’ve found are the Sonos staff and posts linking to FCC filings.
Danny (melvimbe) thanks for taking the time to read and respond. Sure, I hope it was obvious some of my comments were inferences and I think (well hope) you’d agree some of your responses are opinions too, and quite slighted to Sonos’ favour. (And no, I’m not saying that’s a bad thing - I’ve been there.)
But I really have to disagree with a lot of your inferences. Politely. This is just a different opinion - I’m not saying you are wrong, just that you have a more rose-tinted view of all this than I. I just disagree and here are some of the reasons why – oh and I need to rebut a couple of things I didn’t say.
senecan wrote:
Even if some of these products are more than 10 years old, that doesn’t mean they were purchased 10 years ago. The connect:amp is a case in point: at the start of this year this was “current” and the best choice for users with their own speakers already.
melvimbe replied:
Yes, I think that’ pretty well understood, and an somewhat understandable complaint. However, I think most recently purchased devices won’t be traded in, since customers will likely be happy with what they have now and won’t feel like they get their money’s worth. I am guessing Sonos didn’t distinguish between old and new Connect:amp’s either because it’s difficult to identify the age of products with customers or felt it would be too confusing for customers.
Sonos have claimed that in the FAQ of the Trade-Up program that, “because all our products are part of a system, older ones may affect the performance of newer ones”. This is a clear indication that you need to trade up. I was pointing out, only, that an argument along the lines of “this was designed 10 years ago” doesn’t hold much water when it was being sold as current just over a year ago. And as I mentioned the connect:amp is still being sold as a “last chance” on the Sonos website.
senecan wrote:
There are a couple of nasty consequences of this trade-up program:
- The resale value of eligible old kit just took a major nose-dive. This is because Sonos are incentivizing trade-up, meaning future support is likely to be zero.
melvimbe replied:
You’re comment on support is speculative, but surely the take some will have. I think the used market will be effected in lots of ways both directions. Less people will bother to sell the speakers since they have a trade in value, while some will want to buy a speaker for it’s trade in value. Some will feel the risk of buying used is worth it since you can recover some value through trade in, while will feel it’s a doom product as you suggested.
The key phrase is “for its trade-in value”. That’s a very hard limit, and below the current trending prices on <ahem> a popular auction site. I used the phrase “likely to be” with regard to support – so yes that I defined it myself as speculative already, but I think a reasonable guess. The fact of trade-up is a bit of a hint, the Play:5 Gen1 has been end-of-life but still supported for a while now.
senecan wrote:
- In fact the tagline that there are certain features that old kit can’t support and may compromise the capabilities of new kit on an existing setup, this seriously reduces desirability of these models.
melvimbe replied:
I don’t see this as effect of the trade in program, since the statement is true whether there was a trade in program or not. The products are built with lower specs and are less likely to get newer features added because of this.
Sonos now promote trade-up with that comment I quoted earlier, about older kit potentially reducing the performance of newer kit. I think this has not been widely established before. Sure we know old kit can’t do new things (like Play:5 gen 1s act as satellites) but not that new kit can’t do new things if you keep your old kit around.
senecan wrote:
- Clearly Sonos consider this kit to be worth 30% to scrap/recycle. That is a pretty hard limit on the value you can charge second hand, if you can bypass the above.
melvimbe replied:
Sonos has stated several times that they want to incentives people to purchase the new speakers as part of the reason for this. And you’re applying the 30% figure incorrectly. It’s 30% off of whatever product you buy, not 30% off the value of the product you’re selling. That means the dollar value varies from $54 to $210 depending on what you purchase. So if you’re trading in a $400 Connect for a $700 playbar, you’re getting over 50% of your money back essentially. So in regardless to what you can charge second hand, it’s a matter of what the speaker is worth for use itself or whatever the buyer intends to trade it in for.
That’s kinda pedantic – I’m referring to 30% of the value of an appropriate “current” device. Your math goes a bit awry – eg if I trade-in a connect:amp and use the 30% off a Sonos One that’s a significantly lower value. I’m saying the kit you bought (possibly) just over a year ago is worth 30% of its replacement – that’s the number the sticks and any other scenarios about buying a new product that isn’t representative of the old lead to a range of values. Should we take a median?
senecan wrote:
- You can’t stack discounts - I asked. The description says 30% of ONE new item for each trade-up, but doesn’t say you can’t apply multiple 30%s to the same ONE new item, but you can’t. This means, potentially, you have to spend 70% to replace an “old” item with something that on the surface seems to do exactly the same.
melvimbe replied:
Besides the fact that you don’t have to trade in your old gear at all, you don’t need to trade in for the current version of your product. You could trade in a Connect for a Sonos One if you wish, not the same at all. Disallowing stacking is a very reasonable measure for Sonos. They aren’t trying to lose money with this program. I don’t know what their margins are, but I would guess 60% off would be at a loss.
I think disallowing stacking is very poor. If I give up two of my existing end-of-life products, why can’t I get a bigger discount on the item I choose in their place? I lost two things here.
Note I use the predicate “I think” in giving that opinion.
senecan wrote:
- Oh and btw - perhaps Sonos aren’t still making these models but you can still buy, at the time of writing, a Connect from the “last chance” section on the Sonos website and it is way more than 30% of the original price. So what gives?
melvimbe replied
Again, the value of the trade in is 30% off a new item, not the original cost of what you are trading in. If you want to buy a Connect in that’s currently 20% for example ($280?), knowing that you can trade it in for 30% off a Port or any other Sonos device later on, that’s an option.
Again, see above. 30% is the working value; the discount of a like-for-like but current alternative.
senecan wrote:
I really worry about the signal this is sending. Point 2 worries me more than anything: that Sonos are clearing the way to hobble or isolate my existing Gen1 Play:5s, Connect and Connect:Amp (yes, I have all of these) interacting with the newer kit on my network. The one key feature of the Sonos ecosystem is that it is “one thing” that can play anything, anywhere.
melvimbe replied
None of the speakers have been removed yet. I get why people think the end is coming based on this, but if there is an end, it will come with or without this trade up program. Personally, I’m not all that worried.
Supporting old kit is just a real pain; I think Sonos have actually been pretty honourable in this regard up to now, actually.
I’d prefer to see them offer a proper incentive and then switch off that old kit – do it properly, not cheaply. Which is what I think this is.
Could you trade a Z80 in for a Beam or does it have to be for an equivalent bit of kit?
You could. Or even for a ‘set’ (bundle) which includes a Beam, since some such ‘sets’ presently count as ‘single product’ for the purposes of the program.
Let’s be honest here. Sonos just wants to kill the second hand market. The 30% discount is so that when you upgrade, someone else also buys new instead of your second hand. Sonos wants to shorten the replacement cycle and kill the second hand market. It’s about $$$.
They aren’t trying to kill the entire second hand market since trade up is only available on certain products. If this was their sole goal, then it would make more sense to offer trade up discounts on more products, or perhaps host their own second hand market to profit from. Sonos has said that they want customers to experience more modern Sonos speakers rather than old stuff. I can somewhat see that, but I think a lot of it has to do with reducing support costs for the older units, and allowing for new functionality that the old stuff can’t do.
I read someone saying that 5ghz support was important. Are you kidding me? 5ghz is only short range, it doesn’t go through walls and is only useful for very high bandwith applications. Not audio and certainly not the lo-fi audio Sonos transmits.
Sonos uses 5Ghz for home theatre setups, where short range makes sense and you need to sync the audio with video. The Connect:amp didn’t have 5Ghz, so had to be direct wired if used for rear speakers. The new Amp has 5Ghz, and can perform the task wirelesssly.
There is no reason to stimulate the trading in of my connect:amp for example. It works perfectly and really needs no more updates or anything really. What are you going to add? I bought it to power my built-in bathroom speakers and control it wirelessly, that’s what it does and i don’t need other functionality. There is no functional update that Sonos can give the new AMP that will cause me to switch.
For a bathroom application, this is pretty much true. I use a Connect:amp for my garage speakers and it does the job just fine. I don’t see a need to trade it in right now. However, I used to use the Connect:amp for backyard speakers and it wasn’t adequate. Not enough power. I also wanted to use a TV out there at times, and the Connect:amp could do the audio for that . The Sonos Amp was a great upgrade for that space.
Here is a simpler solution: offer a 25% price discount for registered owners with eligible equipment for no other reason than they are current, easily verified customers and as such have a discount extended to them for newer products. The older units are still theirs to do with as they please. Leaving them on the Sonos network will still have possible negative future impacts by deprecating the entire system so there is already an incentive to either resell or give them away. Bricking the traded devices is rather ridiculous.
Make this a loyalty program, not a trade-in program.
+22
Could you trade a Z80 in for a Beam or does it have to be for an equivalent bit of kit?
I traded a ZP-80 for a full 5.1 Beam surround system. Traded another for just a Beam.
They are now telling me that my 3 Gen 1 Play 5’s are inhibiting updates to my 9 other pieces of equipment (2 playbases, 2 subs, 2 Play 1’s, 1 Play 5 Gen II, Boost and Connect Amp). Also, the play 5’s only show a trade for the Move, I don’t consider that a fair trade. I’m not sure how the software updates can’t discern the individual units.
“Legacy products were introduced between 2005 and 2011 and, given the age of the technology, do not have enough memory or processing power to sustain future innovation.
Please note that because Sonos is a system, all products operate on the same software. If modern products remain connected to legacy products after May, they also will not receive software updates and new features.”
So it’s not just $1200.00 worth of “Legacy” units anymore, my whole system has become “Legacy”.
Guess I should be happy since I’m a Stockholder, but I’m not.
They are now telling me that my 3 Gen 1 Play 5’s are inhibiting updates to my 9 other pieces of equipment (2 playbases, 2 subs, 2 Play 1’s, 1 Play 5 Gen II, Boost and Connect Amp). Also, the play 5’s only show a trade for the Move, I don’t consider that a fair trade. I’m not sure how the software updates can’t discern the individual units.
“Legacy products were introduced between 2005 and 2011 and, given the age of the technology, do not have enough memory or processing power to sustain future innovation.
Please note that because Sonos is a system, all products operate on the same software. If modern products remain connected to legacy products after May, they also will not receive software updates and new features.”
So it’s not just $1200.00 worth of “Legacy” units anymore, my whole system has become “Legacy”.
Guess I should be happy since I’m a Stockholder, but I’m not.
Not sure where you read that the trade up for the Play:5 is a Move. There is no “trade up”, it’s a trade in. For each device you trade in, you get a discount of 30% off any one Sonos item you wish to buy, including some of the bundles. Theoretically, you could trade in a Connect ($350 when new) and get 30% off a full 5.1 Home Theater set.
+20
This offer is horrible. I have a connect:amp. I would be interested in possibly upgrading to the new amp but the feature set is fairly limited and the new amp is a whopping £600.
No-one’s forcing you, are they?
If the offer’s ‘horrible’ from your perspective, don’t take it. I’m not. For others, it’ll work out well and save them significant sums of money.
I hesitate to say it, but I’m only seeing one source of greed here, and it’s not on Sonos’ side.
I got the “trade up” right from the Sonos site hyperlinked from there Email. Says $279.30 after Trade Up.
Just a suggestion (and a strange one at that). You can use your 30% on any and all Sonos products (and most bundles).
If sonos abandon selling to legacy community, the value of your old stuff might increase as locked down owners want to add things…..long shot…..
Ok, I do see the 30% off any New product now, but it’s only after I log into my account on the Sonos site. I guess if the Email would have prompted a log-in to my account first, I wouldn’t have misunderstood and would have seen the 30% information up front. Thanks for the push jgatie!
@Ryan S
If you have such good intentions; what is the idea in destroying the devise and making it irreversible?
You only incite/encourage to overconsumption when destroying perfectly good products.
When someone agree to the deal and regrets, they might as well have thrown their functional speaker in the trash..
Who is that helping? –Where is the ethics in this?
So how is 'responsibly recycling’ such an old speaker/device not helping? … it’s better than Sonos continuing to make new devices by using even more of the earths natural resources, particularly when many folk just take their speakers off to landfill.. this provides more of an incentive to us ALL to recycle the now rather old Sonos products.
Perhaps read Ryan’s post again …
https://en.community.sonos.com/wireless-speakers-228992/trade-up-scheme-6831609#post16370464
Not seen this in the UK yet. I too don’t like the idea of disabling a working speaker.
Am I the only one thinking the time is approaching where the older units will soon be retired. Sonos must have to take quite a hit on developments to keep the compatability going. We’ve seen the retirement of controllers and docks, what next. Or when
OK, you nailed it.
grazey I’m missing what Sonos is forcing you to do?
Everything I have seen on the Trade-Up program is optional and voluntary. What am I missing?
Sonos is t forcing me - yet, but it is coming. They are a company I no longer trust. You completely evaded the points I actually did make such as the aim of controlling the market, turning customers into cash cows, the fact that its not ethical to brick tech that works.
How things can change in just a few weeks. You called it. OK, still not being forced, but now prodded with a sharp stick!
They simply don’t want to support these legacy devices anymore...and now we know, after the price increase. A seriously jerkish move.
I come from a background of buying separates that allow me to choose how and when I want to upgrade depending on budget and need. Mostly, I wont want to upgrade. My main speakers at home are 20 years old. I dknt need to change them and have no fear that B&W might try to brick them. I probably come from a different era but I dont regard hi fi as the same as buying a mobile phone and no I don't want to change every few years. I hadnt realised Sonos viewed me as a cash cow and that they would change the terms if I didnt produce enough milk to try to force me to.
Big thumbs down to Sonos. You guys have just gone way down in my opinion. I have joined this forum just to make this point.
Booooooooo - you suck.
I own 4 Sonoses and love the products and experience. I used to think the company was decent too. But now I just think you’re just wanting to line your pockets and F the environmental impact.
Too bad you feel that way. IMO all the negative comments surrounding the Trade Up program are really getting ridiculous.
First of all Sonos is not requiring that you Trade-up your products. Do it if you like or don’t...it's a CHOICE.
Basically, the complaints about “bricking” a working product comes down to personal greed. You want the 30% discount; but you want it for FREE! So essentially you want to double dip...get the 30% off new Sonos and in some cases sell your old Sonos.
I’m not against selling older Sonos...heck...I sell my Sonos all the time in order to offset the cost of new. I recently sold two Play 3’s and a Connect to offset the cost of two Move’s and a Port, respectively. I even sold a black sub to offset the cost of a white sub.
I have a Playbar in my bedroom. If Sonos were to offer me 30% off to upgrade to a new improved Playbar in exchange for my current one; I’d go for it (budget permitting). I can only use one Playbar at a time. Given the age of the Playbar $210 (30% of $ 699) is about what it’s worth on the open market. So IMO...Great Deal!
As far as Sonos announcing they will discontinue support for “X” product. Do you really expect Sonos to support legacy products forever? Let’s get real people. You also need to understand that dis-continuing support for a Sonos speaker doesn’t mean it will cease to work. Just do the following:
Now that you have “walled –off” your Sonos from the outside world; continue using it until the circuit boards burnout. 
Cheers!
Edit: Really...You 
your own post That’s 
and 
at the same time.
Note, there will not be any change in current functionality for the legacy devices, they will just stop getting software updates. They will continue to work. You are not being forced to buy new equipment.
But you will be prevented from using new devices with the old ones - as they must all run same software version; the new ones will not get updated either. And what happens the day when the new ones sold are equipped with software versions higher than the maximum ones used by the old devices? Will you then even be able to plug in the new devices into your system?
I think that we must expect that before long the older devices in practice simply cannot function anymore.
Most older SONOS gear is worth more than the 30% discount. So a better “trade up” is to liquidate current gear and buy the new gear. For instance; I can easily fetch $280 for a Connect Amp which will net me an additional $100.
I would just like to know if this is going to be like the old remotes which they ended up bricking after a brief trade in period (which I missed). It would suck to come home from a long vacation and find all of my SONOS gear inoperable (12 units).
Big thumbs down to Sonos. You guys have just gone way down in my opinion. I have joined this forum just to make this point.
Booooooooo - you suck.
I own 4 Sonoses and love the products and experience. I used to think the company was decent too. But now I just think you’re just wanting to line your pockets and F the environmental impact.
Too bad you feel that way. IMO all the negative comments surrounding the Trade Up program are really getting ridiculous.
First of all Sonos is not requiring that you Trade-up your products. Do it if you like or don’t...it's a CHOICE.
Basically, the complaints about “bricking” a working product comes down to personal greed. You want the 30% discount; but you want it for FREE! So essentially you want to double dip...get the 30% off new Sonos and in some cases sell your old Sonos.
I’m not against selling older Sonos...heck...I sell my Sonos all the time in order to offset the cost of new. I recently sold two Play 3’s and a Connect to offset the cost of two Move’s and a Port, respectively. I even sold a black sub to offset the cost of a white sub.
I have a Playbar in my bedroom. If Sonos were to offer me 30% off to upgrade to a new improved Playbar in exchange for my current one; I’d go for it (budget permitting). I can only use one Playbar at a time. Given the age of the Playbar $210 (30% of $ 699) is about what it’s worth on the open market. So IMO...Great Deal!
As far as Sonos announcing they will discontinue support for “X” product. Do you really expect Sonos to support legacy products forever? Let’s get real people. You also need to understand that dis-continuing support for a Sonos speaker doesn’t mean it will cease to work. Just do the following:
Now that you have “walled –off” your Sonos from the outside world; continue using it until the circuit boards burnout.
Cheers!
Edit: Really...You your own post That’s and at the same time.
I still have audio equipment from the 60’s that works great. I don’t expect SONOS to “support” legacy gear forever but I also don’t expect it to stop working either. They could easily keep legacy equipment operable while only supporting new equipment. Not unlike old PC’s which still work fine they just don't support new OS’s or software.
+9
Finally someone who cares, see my post also: https://en.community.sonos.com/components-228996/sonos-contributing-to-electronic-waste-6831622#post16370430
I tend to look at my Sonos equipment much as I look at my mobile phone. They’ve both got an OS, a certain amount of memory, and a CPU. At some point in time, it seems inevitable that one of these will no longer be able to support continuing development of the Sonos ecosystem.
In my opinion, I’m pretty impressed with Sonos. So far, the only devices that they’ve had to deprecate are non-speakers, i.e. the dock and the CR100. But not a single actual speaker. I don’t expect that to last forever, no more than I expect to run iOS 13.2 on my iPhone 1. But Sonos has shown more commitment to maintaining older equipment that they’ve made than any other tech company that I deal with on a regular basis.
Frankly, as a user, I tend to be more interested in the “new” features, than I am in locking down my system in order to maintain some particular device. But then again, I don’t think that those who do so are in any way “wrong” to do it. It’s a choice, that each of us have to make. The challenge for many of us is trying to remember what things were like in software release “X” so that we can assist people. It’s probably an equal issue for Sonos support.
I’ve worked in software for many years. I’ve run in to many of the same challenges that Sonos faces, with issues with clients that don’t match the server, with maintaining support for operating systems that are no longer supported by their originators. I get where they face challenges. And I think they do a good job in meeting those challenges. But at the end of the day, in order to stay valid in the marketplace, Sonos needs to continue to evolve their software. Adding new features, adding new speakers. The only way that they make money is by selling new speakers. So they’ve got an obligation (now) to their shareholders and employees not to stand still, but continue to grow. Sometimes, that’s in opposition to some of the needs of us users.
Unfortunately, I’ve never found a tech company that works to exactly what I want. I have to figure out what the best use is of what’s available out there on the market, and make it work for what I need it to. It’s exactly the same way with Sonos. Yes, I want them to change, in very specific ways to accommodate my needs. But I suspect, nay, know, that my personal needs are not those of the greater marketplace.
I’d love to compare Sonos to an older setup of a receiver with speakers. But I can’t. They’re entirely different technologies. That old system didn’t have any software, or internet connectivity built in. Each Sonos device is effectively a computer. And computers eventually get old. Not stop running, but just can’t be updated to the current “version” that gives you the latest and greatest features.
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