Sonos really that bad?

  • 12 August 2021
  • 57 replies
  • 2270 views
N
Userlevel 3
Badge +9

Hi all!

Yesterday I had a friend at my home. He is a true audiophile. He owns a Sonus Faber speakers with Mcintosh amp and a whole lot more really expensive equipment (DAC, cords...). But, he used to own a system 5 or 10 times cheaper so I think he knows what he is hearing/saying. I myself listened to his newest system. I went speechless. 

I told him numerous time: Sonos is not for critical music listening, but my 5.1 setup for movies: it can hold its own. So, yesterday he had his ears on my Playbar, rear 3’s and a SUB. 

First, Eric Clapton’s Layla, unplugged through Spotify. After 10 seconds, he went: “Whoa, someone killed the musicians”. I LOLed but even before I had a chance to “tweak” the sound he kindly asked me to turn it off :-) 

Ok, how about some movies. The plane hijacking scene of The Dark Knight Rises was our choice. He let me go a bit longer than Layla but he said: Do you know how much sound you are missing here? So, I pushed mute, and replied: I don’t agree, I thing that movies sound good. Also, the music is adequate for background listening. His conclusion was: ignorance is bliss…

Is Sonos really that bad for music and movies as well? I have no aspire to become an audiophile of any sort, but I was thinking of a pair of Fives in a near future to sit down in front and enjoy the sound. 

Neven

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57 replies

ratty

Maybe if Sonos had glowing tubes and a few flickering VU meters it would sound a whole lot more acceptable.

Airgetlam

No, I don’t think so. But audio is in the ears of the beholder. If it’s fine for you, as it is for me, then I wouldn’t worry about if. 

If instead you want to measure the quality of the sound by the money invested, as it appears many audiophiles do, then by all means, it’s a valid choice. I’d encourage you to trade in your car as well, in order to purchase a better car, and you’ll probably want to move homes to be in a better ‘environment’ for listening. 

Yes, I’m being overly dramatic. But if you’re happy with your Sonos, why does it matter if your friend thinks less of you because you didn’t spend a small fortune on your audio equipment? Frankly, if he thinks less of you because your not an ‘audiophile’, then id suggest he isn’t much of a friend. 

Be happy with yourself. 

Bruce
ratty

Yes Sonos is that bad! Not because of the sound quality but because, if you get a multi-room system, you’ll discover it never works and no one can offer a long-term fix.

Really? I’ve had a Sonos system working fine for 14 years, and for all that time it’s been multi-room. If it was as bad as you make out, Sonos would have been out of business long ago.

To judge by your other thread you simply have a broken local network.

A

But I still think that a minute of listening is not nearly enough and that I did not present the wonderfull Sonos system at it’s best.

Many years ago I had a mid-range ‘hi-fi’ system - Quad, KEF, Thorens. A friend of ours had a small mini system which included tape player, CD, radio and speakers which cost about £50.

When she’d come to us she’d say that the only difference she could hear between her system and ours was that ours would go louder.

When we went to her place, it was obvious within seconds of playing any track that the mini system was missing so much of the music - colouration, timing, clarity - everything was inferior. Even SWMBO (who doesn’t give a toss about sound quality) used to comment on it. The owner was very happy with it, though, and we  considered it impolite to criticise - why would we wish to upset a friend?

My advice is to stop worrying about it and to enjoy your Sonos. If you’re happy with the sound, it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks. There’s always going to be someone out there who has spent a lot of money on their system in the pursuit of - something (maybe just bragging rights). Ignore them.

A

 

Is Sonos really that bad for music and movies as well? I have no aspire to become an audiophile of any sort, but I was thinking of a pair of Fives in a near future to sit down in front and enjoy the sound. 


I am an audiophile and have owned McIntosh gear as well as Accuphase gear which is even pricier and better.  I have had a wide range of speakers, some of which were Stereophile Class A rated.  I think the original Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor and Cremona line were superb.

I had Devialet Phantom Silvers and currently have Sonos Fives with a Sub Gen 3.

There is a lot of snake oil in “audiophile circles” but one of the reasons McIntosh has been in business for so long is that their products are genuinely reliable and good.  Everyone will criticize their cost but that is a different question.  Sonus Faber is also a very well respected brand with some exceptional speakers in the past, and a mix of good and bad speakers today.  Craftsmanship is very nice although some of the older designs were better.

The premium setup is like flying First Class on a commercial airline.  It is objectively better, but that doesn’t mean that Economy Plus is horrible.  If you paired McIntosh electronics with something like the Revel Ultima Salon 2 speakers, you would have something that would always be superior to a Sonos in sound quality in blind testing.

For movies, the sky is the limit and reaching movie theater level volumes is harder the bigger your room is.  In the same way, a 55” TV is not as good as a 75” TV which isn’t as good as an 100” TV (if you are looking at the best representatives from each side).  You can still enjoy the TV show or movie on all systems *and* how close you sit to the TV matters. In the same way, the size of your audio room matters.

All that said, Sonos gives you exceptional performance and an exceptional price.  You need to move up to the price points of 2-3X the Sonos to get appreciably consistently better sound.

Sonos gives you economy plus airline performance for the price of a bus fare if you think about it that way.  That is how it is possible to be one of the best “values” yet still come short against a First Class experience.

The Sonos Five is a big actual dollar investment the way that a McIntosh/Sonus Faber setup is priced above a first clas air ticket, but I think even your friend would be impressed if you had a pair of Sonos Fives, properly placed on stands, a Sub, Trueplay enabled and used something like Amazon Music HD as a source.   The Sub adds bass but the big advantage is that it allows the Five to use its efforts on a narrower range of audio which improves sound quality.

buzz

For some good fun with vinyl fans try discussing turntable cartridge and stylus types and proper setup. Very few have any clue about these.

 

It’s very difficult to discuss proper cartridge alignment because very little has been written about this.

For proper VTA (Vertical Tracking Angle) you need to fuss with each record. Probably the best approach is to use a calibrated, adjustable arm height and put a number on each record. Unfortunately, if you change cartridges or replace the stylus, you’ll need a new set of numbers. And, it’s more or less hopeless if the record is not perfectly flat.

With CD’s and digital in general we fret about bits and jitter, but I’ve seen very few records that are flat with the hole in the center and there are built-in tracking distortions due to the geometry of the situation.

Early CD players did not sound so good because the analog designers missed some basic digital fine points and the digital designers missed some basic analog fine points. And, the CD mastering process was not generally understood. Now we are passed this mess, but the music marketers have taken control and regular commercial music releases have the life compressed out of them. Records in the earlier generations were mastered before the draconian compressors were available. Of course we now can purchase our libraries (again) in “high-def”. In my opinion this is pointless unless the high-def version skips the compressor.

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +4

As a former fanatical audiophile,who owned components from Mark Levinson,Jeff Rowland,Big Infinity and Avalon speakers,as well as Audio Research and Conrad Johnson components(all the top tier of the respective lines)I can confidently say…..

Don’t worry about it!

I have 2 Play 5’s and the sub,with that damn cute little Roam as a rear channel ambience speaker.The system is set up in a good room and I don’t give a second thought to my old high end stuff.

That era was filled with products that generated heat,took up tons of space,cost a bundle and required tweaking.Not to mention the loss of true dealer support,because traditional audio is on it’s way out….

IT IS!

Many audio products have their own sonic signature and it’s not always all that neutral.

It also becomes a real hassle when they develop issues and one has to figure out what component is the cause…..A major pain in the tush!

My current Sonos set up has been a joy to use for 20 months.No Cd’s and LP’s to store and clean….No ticks and pops from records…...No hassles….Just Music and to be honest….Reproduced quite well!

Good luck-:)

 

buzz

Cars are similar. Some fans with shiny custom rigs spend all weekend tuning while other fans with old clunkers are out and about visiting all sorts of interesting places. Both types enjoy their car, but in different ways. Personally, I appreciate high tech car toys as engineering marvels, but I’d never own one. If a car gets me there on time and I’m dry, it has done its job.

In some respects you could throw me into the Audiophile bin because I can make some awkward observations (‘buzz’ -- get it?). Self proclaimed Audiophiles don’t usually appreciate having me around because I can backup my observations with science. I don’t need to claim better than human hearing, I just pay attention.

Many cite the goal of “concert hall sound” from their audio system. Unfortunately, I don’t know what that is because the sound is different with different seats in the hall. In one case I was in a very bad seat in a world class hall and I can only describe the sound as ‘terrible’ -- in that seat because of an unfortunate echo off a nearby wall. If my audio system sounded like that I’d simply turn it off. I was glad when that concert ended.

In the end only you know what sounds ‘best’ (to you). Let the audiophile enjoy his custom rig.

K

 

Software reliability is a key benefit of Sonos over Chromecast/Echo Dot and other premium streaming methods (BluOS, Devialet, HEOS, MusicCast).

Again, I agree with all except the quoted - I use Echo devices extensively as sources to line in on my Sonos and Studio monitor equipped zones, and I find them to be just as reliable as Sonos where music play stability etc is concerned. Even when the multi room perfect sync play heavy lifting is being done by Echo groups.

I can't speak from experience to the other methods you refer to - but they seem to have stability issues which more than offset any theoretical benefits they may offer by their offering higher density bit streams  carrying the music.

Similarly with the Devialets - given the bug you describe I would always be on tenterhooks while listening to them as to when it will strike, and that cannot be good for the music listening experience.

Once I moved to Sonos at the end of my audiophile days, I realised that for me there was nothing in my high end kit that was giving me greater listening pleasure once I sorted out the few music play stability issues in Sonos, so it did not take me long to sell all of it except for some well sized speakers that still remain in some Sonos zones. I haven’t regretted this decision even once in the last ten years.

Stanley_4
Userlevel 7
Badge +22

Smoking anything with exposed vinyl? Nope, nope, nope not my precious vinyl!

J
Userlevel 5
Badge +8

Personally I buy gear that pleases me and I couldn’t give a damn what others think of it. 

Some ‘audiophiles’ go out of their way to convince themselves that the massive amounts they’ve spent on their gear is far better than other systems. The people aren’t worth knowing in my opinion.

I used to have a ‘proper’ 5.1 system and ‘proper’ hi-fi system but I got rid of them and only have Sonos gear now because it’s so much more convenient to use and sounds good enough for me. A lot of the music I like to listen to sounded awful on ‘proper’ hi-fi and I’m not prepared to change what I listen to just to make my system sound better!

If you’re happy with your system then that is all that matters. 

Edit - one more thing. A lot of these audiophiles seem to descend into listening to the performance of their gear rather than listening to and enjoying the music.

 

N
Userlevel 7
Badge +18

I’ve always found, though, that - all other issues like volume matching and blind testing aside - it’s usually easier to hear differences if you go from a ‘good’ system to a ‘less good’ system. Going up the quality scale often doesn’t sound very different - better, but not hugely different.


And that’s why “audiophile” retailers will always let you listen to the expensive, “better” system first, in the hope there’s “something missing” for you to pick up when you then listen to the cheap system. 

N
Userlevel 3
Badge +9

If you’re happy with the sound from your Sonos kit, surely that’s all that matters.

I’ve always found, though, that - all other issues like volume matching and blind testing aside - it’s usually easier to hear differences if you go from a ‘good’ system to a ‘less good’ system. Going up the quality scale often doesn’t sound very different - better, but not hugely different. Once you’re used to the better quality kit, though, going back to a lower quality system is immediately apparent. This may well be why he’s having such  a swift and decisive reaction.

 

Maybe… Yesterday we had a short chat about it. He said: it’s a good home theather. For music it’s no good. He added the SUB is very powerfull. So, Sonos got some ok reviews. But I still think that a minute of listening is not nearly enough and that I did not present the wonderfull Sonos system at it’s best.

Neven

 

 

N
Userlevel 3
Badge +9

I’ve always found, though, that - all other issues like volume matching and blind testing aside - it’s usually easier to hear differences if you go from a ‘good’ system to a ‘less good’ system. Going up the quality scale often doesn’t sound very different - better, but not hugely different.


And that’s why “audiophile” retailers will always let you listen to the expensive, “better” system first, in the hope there’s “something missing” for you to pick up when you then listen to the cheap system. 

True. Also, I do think that very few people have ”perfect” hearing in order to able to detect subtle nuances and frequencies in music.

Neven

K

 

That era was filled with products that generated heat,took up tons of space,cost a bundle and required tweaking.

 

The tweaking keeps users busy - just listening to music can get boring - while the expense means that it allows them to look down on the many others that have cheaper kit and get a kick from that.

The absence of these two important “benefits” is why audiophiles don't like Sonos. All that one can do with it is listen to music. And the neighbour can keep up quite easily if he or she chooses to do so.

M
Userlevel 4
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Btw,I should have added that as an Amazon Unlimited user,I have been able to play much music that i was familiar with,since I had it on Lp’s and Cd;s…..Classical and Rock as well as Jazz.

I’ve listened quite carefully for the subtleties that were on those recordings…..There is not much lost on my Sonos rig.I believe if the music was transferred well,you lose very little from the originals.

In some cases the transfers are sub par,but it’s not Sonos…...However,for every instance where I “think” some tidbit of musical information is missing,there are tons of albums where it’s better…..Go figure.-:)

Case in point…..Jim Messina put out a  “Live” album,called “In The Groove” (this was after Loggins And Messina broke up)which  is an album that is so well recorded and transferred to this format  that I shake my head as to the realism being reproduced on a “mere” Sonos system…..In a good way.

Gotta’ love it.-:)

K

 

All that said, Sonos gives you exceptional performance and an exceptional price.  You need to move up to the price points of 2-3X the Sonos to get appreciably consistently better sound.

 

Fair summary on the audio side - though in response to the quoted I will say that moving up the price points as referred won't give you better sound automatically. One still needs to pick the right set up for the target room. And there are many mediocre systems out there, especially speakers, even at those prices.

The other point is that what Sonos offers in source quality is now equalled by devices such as Chromecast/Echo Dots. One can then wire these in to good downstream kit to get Sonos quality at prices that may at times even be significantly lower than Sonos.

For someone picking with some care, there has never been a time when excellent sound quality at home is as affordable as it is today, coupled with the huge access to music on the cheap, via streaming services.

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +4

You hit it right on the head Kumar…...My old audio pals would not even give a second thought to my current system…..I have a pal who introduced me to Sonos and has my exact set up(he got it first). He is very well off financially…….He also has a good traditional set up…...I was over his place 3 weeks ago and asked about his old Hi Fi stuff.

His exact response to  me was….”I never listen to it,but it looks good in my living room,so I keep it”.

No exaggeration from me.

K

 

His exact response to  me was….”I never listen to it,but it looks good in my living room,so I keep it”.

 

Lol - what's the odds that some one visiting will be very impressed by how good the retained system sounds even if the music is actually coming from Sonos speakers in the vicinity?

N
Userlevel 3
Badge +9

As a former fanatical audiophile,who owned components from Mark Levinson,Jeff Rowland,Big Infinity and Avalon speakers,as well as Audio Research and Conrad Johnson components(all the top tier of the respective lines)I can confidently say…..

Don’t worry about it!

I have 2 Play 5’s and the sub,with that damn cute little Roam as a rear channel ambience speaker.The system is set up in a good room and I don’t give a second thought to my old high end stuff.

That era was filled with products that generated heat,took up tons of space,cost a bundle and required tweaking.Not to mention the loss of true dealer support,because traditional audio is on it’s way out….

IT IS!

Many audio products have their own sonic signature and it’s not always all that neutral.

It also becomes a real hassle when they develop issues and one has to figure out what component is the cause…..A major pain in the tush!

My current Sonos set up has been a joy to use for 20 months.No Cd’s and LP’s to store and clean….No ticks and pops from records…...No hassles….Just Music and to be honest….Reproduced quite well!

Good luck-:)

 

Thank you for your input. It means a lot to hear that Sonos, in general plays good. Moreso, i never listen to music sitting in a sweetspot (maybe it will change with years to come) so i really don't search perfection in soundstage and clarity.

Neven

N
Userlevel 3
Badge +9

 And while i understand big sound can come only from big enclosure/driver i so believe the industy and electronics came a long way. Two decades ago i had a desktop computer ten times weaker and slower than my mobile phone. 

 

To an extent the computer to phone analogy applies for enclosures as well - a small driver that can move back and forth over a bigger distance in a well designed box will move the same amount of air as the big driver/enclosure of yesterday, and will thus deliver very similar results. 

I have to say to an extent, because the physics of sound propagation cannot be completely defeated. 

Very well said. Thank you.

Neven

K

 Moreso, i never listen to music sitting in a sweetspot (maybe it will change with years to come) so i really don't search perfection in soundstage and clarity.

 

Sonos is capable of sounding good in the next room as well as in the sweet spot - but I suspect you may have moved away from sitting just in the sweet spot for music listening; such a location makes sense to get the best of a movie experience for both audio and video, not so much for just music these days. In the early days of home audio, families used to sit together in the sweet spot listening to music - that is a bygone era.

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +4

Just thought I’d add that my friend who has “almost” the same Sonos  set up as me(2 Play 5 gen 2’s,with sub and a Roam,which I use extremely effectively as rear speaker for ambience, also has the Sonos Soundbar in the room,used for his fantastic 65” high def TV set up…..He uses it “all” for TV broadcasts.

It’s not a large room,but has high ceilings and when he pumps it all….You cannot believe the overwhelmingly fantastic experience! I mean “staggering”!

Nobody is going to knock that set up for not being able to differentiate between the first and second violins in an orchestra,like my old audiophile pals did constantly.

Another thing that imo is something good about owning a well set up Sonos system is,the components used in this system are direct coupled and chosen exclusively for their purpose by the manufacturer.In this case,obviously,Sonos…...No wires to need cleaning at their connection points,or tubes to wear out over time.

I feel that because of the direct coupling of all components utilized within there are times,in a really good recording,that the sound exceeds what i have heard from many traditional set ups…...Not all,but enough to not worry about it.

Also,the Sonos sub,with my pair of Play 5’s(my friend’s too) “definitely” destroys the bass that I’ve heard from so many mega buck systems….No bloat and boom…..Then,there’s the Truplay feature….Works great!

While I’m bloviating(sorry if it comes across this way) I might add that there is a seamlessness of all frequencies that many standard/traditional systems do not match,when you consider how completely full range this system is.Not to mention that anyone can add rear speakers to the mix for more dynamics and immersion…..My friend has this in spades…..and…

Many audiophile types(like my past self and old audiophile friends…...I’ve moved,so no longer in touch with that crowd) would argue that one only needs a stereo pairing for an accurate life like experience.

I counter that argument with this question…..”Would you have a better listening experience,in your car,if it only had 2 front speakers,or does it sound better in surround sound using the rear ones as well…..and ….don’t the musicians in a symphony orchestra hear their performance while seated and immersed in the center of their own performance  soundstage”?

I wanted to go for a 3rd Play 5,mounted on a rear wall,in horizontal configuration,but when Sonos introduced the Roam I figured I could pull off a decent rear ambience and fairly impactful sound with “it”.I have a table just behind the listening seat…..Works really well.

I’m a fan-:)

P.S…..Imagine what will come down the road,from Sonos in say 2 years from now.

Like the mid 1970’s in traditional audio,this is a nice time for the new guard and these “quality” tech companies have made it affordable-ish.-:)

Sorry for my length.

 

K

 

Sorry for my length.

 

For a counter argument if you have the energy to spare - I don’t - see the last posts here:

 

https://en.community.sonos.com/music-services-and-sources-228994/sonos-support-for-apple-music-s-lossless-audio-6858768?postid=16552921#post16552921

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +4

Well,all I can say is…..Go listen(on a well set up Sonos system,hopefuly with Stereo Play 5’s and the sub) to “Mojito Moon” on The album called “In The Groove”…..Jim Messina.

Lossy,lossless you’re not going to care…..That is incredible sound,by any standard!

 

Btw,Kumar….I checked out your old thread about who can recommend new music.I wrote down all the titles that interested me…..A few pushes on my smart phone and no worries that I no longer have an LP player,or Cd’s.

New music and plenty of it.-:)

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