Sonos really that bad?

  • 12 August 2021
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57 replies

K

 

Lossy,lossless you’re not going to care…..That is incredible sound,by any standard!

 

New music and plenty of it.-:)

But, to quote the pest on the other thread: Sonos isn't HiFi:grinning:

And yes, access to so much more music is so easy these days - where music listening is concerned, these really are the best of times. 

M
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I really think many audiophile types(I was one for decades) forgot why they got into this in the first place.

It was not to play with cool looking equipment,or tweak,upgrade components every time a reviewer gave a thumbs up to something,or hear the rosin on A violin string!

It “was” to listen to lots of music,hopefully well recorded and played back in good sound.At least that’s what it was to me.

In my old-ish age I’ve gotten a bit lazy…...I like the no hassle approach of these new music components…..Which sound pretty darn good and I’ve had/heard and owned it all….Almost.-:)

 

K

Let the audiophile enjoy his custom rig.

Oh absolutely. It is only when they claim that their rig or superior hearing is what lets only they able to pick out lossless v Hi Res v 256/320 lossy even from the same master, that I think they ought to be called out. Especially when this is done in non enthusiast forums such as this one.

K

In recent weeks I have also discovered another reference point for sound quality - studio monitors. I have added a pair, that is in the bedroom sourcing music from an Echo Show 5 and also serving to elevate the sound from the bedroom TV. With no separate box for the amp, the install is very tidy. I found that I needed to play around with the EQ knobs to get the sound I like and I am quite pleased at the outcome on the value for money front as well.

As a product type, such monitors are more HiFi than audiophile kit, using the strict meaning of the term HiFi. But you will never see them in the typical audiophile set up, even with models that can be tuned to sound more like domestic kit.

And although I have no plans to test this, I suspect there is a better chance of picking out things like lossless v lossy using these, as opposed to domestic kit of any kind. But using these has had no impact on how good I find the music to be in my Sonos zones.

If one can live with their industrial looks with no grilles, there are many excellent examples of value for money in this category - all they need in a domestic environment is something like an Echo - even a Dot - as a source. I also find that many vinyl fans use these to make a simple set up for accessing vinyl.

A

The other point is that what Sonos offers in source quality is now equalled by devices such as Chromecast/Echo Dots. One can then wire these in to good downstream kit to get Sonos quality at prices that may at times even be significantly lower than Sonos.

The source is less of an issue for streaming services since it is exceedingly difficult to distinguish between 16/44 and 24/96 “high resolution” audio on anything but the most premium setup and even then, under strict ABX testing, it is a challenge. There can be differences in the mastering and that can indeed play a big difference.  I have asked Sonos to consider playback of high resolution audio by truncating or downsampling since one would still benefit from different mastering.

 

Trueplay is really helpful.  For the room, dedicated room correction like Anthem ARC Genesis, DIRAC, RoomPerfect and Trinnov Optimizer are all very good especially when correcting to a single listening position.  Even then, Trueplay does a good job with moving mic strategy to correct large room nodes for a wider range of listeners.


I had the Devialet Phantom Silvers which all-in, was a $5k setup.  It is superior to the Sonos Five in sound quality which is easily validated in a blind test.  However, after five years of ownership, Devialet is still perpetually “one software update from being good.”  It has a nasty bug where it randomly will reset the volume to full blast due to how it interacts with iOS and full volume on the Phantoms is a ear damaging 105 dB at close range.

 

The Sonos is a step down in sound quality but it adds a lot more reliability.  That trade off is well worth it.  This is because Sonos is good enough to meet the standards for enjoying quality music (I’ll use the analogy of a bus vs. economy plus airflight).  

 

Software reliability is a key benefit of Sonos over Chromecast/Echo Dot and other premium streaming methods (BluOS, Devialet, HEOS, MusicCast).  The Sonos hardware, in my opinion, is able to reach the point of diminishing returns.  The enhanced midrange clarity from adding the sub to the Five is “well worth it to me” but is already clearly in the range of diminishing returns given its price.  (the same way that First Class airflight is in the range of diminishing returns, but is something everyone would gladly take if offered at the same price as Economy Plus).

 

I still have my first class setup when I really want to listen with the maximum level of quality but the Sonos is very good and enjoyable.

M
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I am fairly certain that the audio component/music industry is on the cusp of a revolution….That being the plethora of affordable/high quality smart speakers,either out now,or coming down the road in the next 2 years.

There are probably quite a few companies that we don’t even know about yet,who offer superb sound and value.

Sonos being at the top of the list,so far.

No wonder their stock went from $15 per share,when I bought my set up 20 months ago,to $40 per share today.

As much as I loved the stuff,traditional audio components are going the way of VCR’s.

K

 

As much as I loved the stuff,traditional audio components are going the way of VCR’s.

Except perhaps for vinyl that may still retain a following - there is still something to be said for the charm of all the visible engineering and being able to interact with it more than just the usual swiping or button pressing.

M
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Agreed…..I had 3000Lp’s and 400 CD’s….but….I far prefer pushing my smart phone buttons….Basically,because I’m lazy.-:)

10 years from now,you won’t be able to give away LP’s…..and…..I loved them!

Stanley_4
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For some good fun with vinyl fans try discussing turntable cartridge and stylus types and proper setup. Very few have any clue about these.

European versus American vertical tracking angles and playback methods can be fun.

Turntable drive systems and bearing types are always good topics.

Of course then you can discuss surface cleaning and vinyl preservation options.

Maybe even signal to noise ratios or channel separation. Inner versus outer groove distortion is always fun as is album length versus low frequency roll-off. 

 

Used to be great fun, probably spent more time fussing about this stuff than all the rest of our systems put together.

Still I switched to CDs and then a CD changer and never looked back at my vinyl. Gave it all (about 18 linear feet) up in a move to a new lifestyle, sadly only a couple years before it would have been practical to rip copies of all of them. Good news is that almost everything I had is available over streaming.

K

but the music marketers have taken control and regular commercial music releases have the life compressed out of them.

I have found that for the genres I like - jazz and blues - this isn't so much of a thing, and I get the dynamic range I like to hear from new recordings as well. Of course, normalisation of sound levels in a playlist shuffled randomly is still an issue, but that is a different subject.

Stanley_4
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For my ears and tinkering I loved the vinyl as I could do the tweaks and hear the differences. Ended up with two turntables, one with the arm height set for US and one for European cut LPs as I had a number of each.

Each had a collection of cartridges in various shapes to include the 50 KHz capable CD-4 Shibata that was essential as a conventional stylus would ruin the ultrasonic carrier in a couple plays. Just putting an LP on to play could take a half hour if I wanted to swap bits about.

And the cleaning… The Stereo and Quadraphonic discs were fussy enough but if you never heard a CD-4 disc hit a dust mote you can’t imagine it. More time in the cleaning machine than on the platter and even then it would sometimes pick up grit before the stylus got to the track. Closing the lid helped but then you were pretty much on headphones as the speakers would feed back (not a howl but a subtle, slightly delayed version of what was playing) and distort the sound.

I ended up copying all the Quad / CD-4 disks to four-track reel to reel tapes just so I could hear the music without all the prep. Noticeable degradation even at 15 IPS and the tapes were not cheap.

If I hadn’t been living in Japan and had access to the Military exchange system I’d probably still be paying off the piles of toys I picked up.

 

I never had a low-end CD player and my ears couldn’t hear any difference from the many CD tweaks so there was nothing there to play with. Sounded great but boring to use.

Streaming quality does matter, the bottom end options do sound bad but CD/FLAC and better MP3 streams sound good enough I can’t hear any issues.

 

Fun memories but this morning I walked in here, booted the computer and tapped the top of my One SL and had music playing before I got the BIOS screen up on the computer. So, yes fond memories but not something I want to do today.

M
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I agree with Kumar,that for some reason Jazz albums seem to have superb signal to noise on my Sonos rig…...I’m completely satisfied.

Don’t get me started on my old,long since gone,but loved,Vinyl albums.

I had a Graham Phantom tonearm and a Transfiguration Orpheus cartridge,as well as Koetsu…..I always found each LP required not only a different VTA setting,but a subtle adjustment in the damping fluid.

Lp’s vary in thickness and when you are an audiophile fanatic(not a bad thing) you play around with this stuff…..It was fun,but having just finished a 2.5 hour Sonos listening session,I don’t miss it.

Have to admit,not having to get up out of my chair to change sides does not burn as many calories as listening to my records.-:)

K

 

Have to admit,not having to get up out of my chair to change sides does not burn as many calories as listening to my records.-:)

Yep, but the pain of having to get up once properly sited at night with a glass of whisky in hand just to turn the side over finally leads to dumping vinyl once there is a viable option. Not to mention that the careful handling necessary for vinyl can be a challenge after more than a glass.

M
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Or a joint.-:)

K

Or a joint.-:)

Different strokes...:-)

M
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Or “tokes”….-:)

Btw,I’m just kidding…..

Back to smart tech for a moment…..I have a suspicion that the real money in the tech related smart music  is Ear Buds!

I never gave them a thought and in order to not annoy my neighbors at night(with my big Sonos rig) I got the Sony XM-3 headphones…..Very nice…..but….In warmer weather I prefer something lighter on the ear,so I got a pair of superb Earbuds(Soundcore Liberty 2 Pro).

I was flabbergasted as to how good these little buggers are.I paid $99,98 shipped and the performance is so good that I can understand some folks just going with buds and nothing else,if you’re on a tight budget.

I believe there was a rumor,on one of the You-Tube sites(I think it may have been Peter Pee….Love that guy) claiming Sonos may be working on these devices.

Think about how many pairs of Ear Buds must sell worldwide…..Megabuck profit?

So cool!

Stanley_4
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Not ear buds but I can easily stream audio or TV to my hearing aids. Sounds pretty decent but eats a set of batteries quickly.

Before I got them I tried a few ear buds and a number of headphones and I just don’t like the way the music sounds. Open-air were better than closed, noise cancelling were worse for me in a quiet room but great on a plane or in a noisy workshop.

K

Maybe if Sonos had glowing tubes and a few flickering VU meters it would sound a whole lot more acceptable.

Even if the glowing tubes were not in the signal path and if the flickering thing added some noise to it….so long as one is ignorant of this state of affairs, so as to allow the brain to be fooled.

On the other hand, I do recognise that the listening experience isn't just what happens via the ears. Which is why music sounds better with the lights down low, late at night. As one example.

And even while I may not have any marked preference for either a top of the line Sonos set up or a Sonus Faber one, for sure much of the latter make’s line looks a LOT better than Sonos, to my eye. And subconsciously, I know that even for me, that will almost certainly drive a preference for them, if cost was not a constraint, and the comparison was allowed to be influenced by how they look.

Since my real life listening is not in the blind, I too would probably lean towards saying they sounded better - because it isn't just the ears that are delivering the inputs that make up the listening experience.

N
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But I still think that a minute of listening is not nearly enough and that I did not present the wonderfull Sonos system at it’s best.

Many years ago I had a mid-range ‘hi-fi’ system - Quad, KEF, Thorens. A friend of ours had a small mini system which included tape player, CD, radio and speakers which cost about £50.

When she’d come to us she’d say that the only difference she could hear between her system and ours was that ours would go louder.

When we went to her place, it was obvious within seconds of playing any track that the mini system was missing so much of the music - colouration, timing, clarity - everything was inferior. Even SWMBO (who doesn’t give a toss about sound quality) used to comment on it. The owner was very happy with it, though, and we  considered it impolite to criticise - why would we wish to upset a friend?

My advice is to stop worrying about it and to enjoy your Sonos. If you’re happy with the sound, it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks. There’s always going to be someone out there who has spent a lot of money on their system in the pursuit of - something (maybe just bragging rights). Ignore them.

Thank you for your opinion. The part about the cost is right. He had an inferior (cheaper system) which sounded better to my ears than the current setup. 

Neven

N
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Maybe if Sonos had glowing tubes and a few flickering VU meters it would sound a whole lot more acceptable.

Even if the glowing tubes were not in the signal path and if the flickering thing added some noise to it….so long as one is ignorant of this state of affairs, so as to allow the brain to be fooled.

On the other hand, I do recognise that the listening experience isn't just what happens via the ears. Which is why music sounds better with the lights down low, late at night. As one example.

And even while I may not have any marked preference for either a top of the line Sonos set up or a Sonus Faber one, for sure much of the latter make’s line looks a LOT better than Sonos, to my eye. And subconsciously, I know that even for me, that will almost certainly drive a preference for them, if cost was not a constraint, and the comparison was allowed to be influenced by how they look.

Since my real life listening is not in the blind, I too would probably lean towards saying they sounded better - because it isn't just the ears that are delivering the inputs that make up the listening experience.

Interesting view of a problem. I do like to see this hi end components but Sonos simplicity won me over. And while i understand big sound can come only from big enclosure/driver i so believe the industy and electronics came a long way. Two decades ago i had a desktop computer ten times weaker and slower than my mobile phone. 

Neven

K

 And while i understand big sound can come only from big enclosure/driver i so believe the industy and electronics came a long way. Two decades ago i had a desktop computer ten times weaker and slower than my mobile phone. 

 

To an extent the computer to phone analogy applies for enclosures as well - a small driver that can move back and forth over a bigger distance in a well designed box will move the same amount of air as the big driver/enclosure of yesterday, and will thus deliver very similar results. 

I have to say to an extent, because the physics of sound propagation cannot be completely defeated. 

K

First, trust your ears. Second, do any comparative tests of how things compare ONLY once the sound levels from both sets of equipment are as close to the same - strictly speaking, this needs instruments to determine this, but this isn't essential to prove the point.

Which is that while the more expensive equipment will probably sound better - how much better will be a lot less when sound levels are equalised, and that is the correct way to assess how much better.

Finally, a 5 pair + Sub, with the sound levels equalised as suggested, is more of an apples to apples comparison with the Sonus Faber set up, and may leave the differences heard to be very small indeed. Provided you do the test with eyes closed. 

I know Sonus Faber speakers by the way. A lot of wood and leather is used in the construction of the cabinets, handmade in Italy. That drives up the costs without any sound quality benefit other than psychological. They certainly look very classy, but the benefit of that to sound quality disappears in a blind test.

P
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Going against expectations, I’d say Sonos produce an acceptable sound, you say that you thought the sound produced when watching films was good, surely you trust your own judgement? You can always buy better speakers but if you are happy with what you have why bother?

N
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I also echo the comments above. My Sonos setup isn’t as good as my Linn system was; nor is it anywhere near as expensive. For my, the multi-room feature is a big plus, and I’m quite content with the sound quality - my ears aren’t as good as they were 30+ years ago! Go with what pleases you. 

N
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Frankly, if he thinks less of you because your not an ‘audiophile’, then id suggest he isn’t much of a friend. 

No, he does not think that way at all. He gave me a friendly advice.

Neven

 

 

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