Sonos really that bad?

  • 12 August 2021
  • 57 replies
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N
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Hi all!

Yesterday I had a friend at my home. He is a true audiophile. He owns a Sonus Faber speakers with Mcintosh amp and a whole lot more really expensive equipment (DAC, cords...). But, he used to own a system 5 or 10 times cheaper so I think he knows what he is hearing/saying. I myself listened to his newest system. I went speechless. 

I told him numerous time: Sonos is not for critical music listening, but my 5.1 setup for movies: it can hold its own. So, yesterday he had his ears on my Playbar, rear 3’s and a SUB. 

First, Eric Clapton’s Layla, unplugged through Spotify. After 10 seconds, he went: “Whoa, someone killed the musicians”. I LOLed but even before I had a chance to “tweak” the sound he kindly asked me to turn it off :-) 

Ok, how about some movies. The plane hijacking scene of The Dark Knight Rises was our choice. He let me go a bit longer than Layla but he said: Do you know how much sound you are missing here? So, I pushed mute, and replied: I don’t agree, I thing that movies sound good. Also, the music is adequate for background listening. His conclusion was: ignorance is bliss…

Is Sonos really that bad for music and movies as well? I have no aspire to become an audiophile of any sort, but I was thinking of a pair of Fives in a near future to sit down in front and enjoy the sound. 

Neven

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57 replies

K

 

Software reliability is a key benefit of Sonos over Chromecast/Echo Dot and other premium streaming methods (BluOS, Devialet, HEOS, MusicCast).

Again, I agree with all except the quoted - I use Echo devices extensively as sources to line in on my Sonos and Studio monitor equipped zones, and I find them to be just as reliable as Sonos where music play stability etc is concerned. Even when the multi room perfect sync play heavy lifting is being done by Echo groups.

I can't speak from experience to the other methods you refer to - but they seem to have stability issues which more than offset any theoretical benefits they may offer by their offering higher density bit streams  carrying the music.

Similarly with the Devialets - given the bug you describe I would always be on tenterhooks while listening to them as to when it will strike, and that cannot be good for the music listening experience.

Once I moved to Sonos at the end of my audiophile days, I realised that for me there was nothing in my high end kit that was giving me greater listening pleasure once I sorted out the few music play stability issues in Sonos, so it did not take me long to sell all of it except for some well sized speakers that still remain in some Sonos zones. I haven’t regretted this decision even once in the last ten years.

A

The other point is that what Sonos offers in source quality is now equalled by devices such as Chromecast/Echo Dots. One can then wire these in to good downstream kit to get Sonos quality at prices that may at times even be significantly lower than Sonos.

The source is less of an issue for streaming services since it is exceedingly difficult to distinguish between 16/44 and 24/96 “high resolution” audio on anything but the most premium setup and even then, under strict ABX testing, it is a challenge. There can be differences in the mastering and that can indeed play a big difference.  I have asked Sonos to consider playback of high resolution audio by truncating or downsampling since one would still benefit from different mastering.

 

Trueplay is really helpful.  For the room, dedicated room correction like Anthem ARC Genesis, DIRAC, RoomPerfect and Trinnov Optimizer are all very good especially when correcting to a single listening position.  Even then, Trueplay does a good job with moving mic strategy to correct large room nodes for a wider range of listeners.


I had the Devialet Phantom Silvers which all-in, was a $5k setup.  It is superior to the Sonos Five in sound quality which is easily validated in a blind test.  However, after five years of ownership, Devialet is still perpetually “one software update from being good.”  It has a nasty bug where it randomly will reset the volume to full blast due to how it interacts with iOS and full volume on the Phantoms is a ear damaging 105 dB at close range.

 

The Sonos is a step down in sound quality but it adds a lot more reliability.  That trade off is well worth it.  This is because Sonos is good enough to meet the standards for enjoying quality music (I’ll use the analogy of a bus vs. economy plus airflight).  

 

Software reliability is a key benefit of Sonos over Chromecast/Echo Dot and other premium streaming methods (BluOS, Devialet, HEOS, MusicCast).  The Sonos hardware, in my opinion, is able to reach the point of diminishing returns.  The enhanced midrange clarity from adding the sub to the Five is “well worth it to me” but is already clearly in the range of diminishing returns given its price.  (the same way that First Class airflight is in the range of diminishing returns, but is something everyone would gladly take if offered at the same price as Economy Plus).

 

I still have my first class setup when I really want to listen with the maximum level of quality but the Sonos is very good and enjoyable.

K

 

All that said, Sonos gives you exceptional performance and an exceptional price.  You need to move up to the price points of 2-3X the Sonos to get appreciably consistently better sound.

 

Fair summary on the audio side - though in response to the quoted I will say that moving up the price points as referred won't give you better sound automatically. One still needs to pick the right set up for the target room. And there are many mediocre systems out there, especially speakers, even at those prices.

The other point is that what Sonos offers in source quality is now equalled by devices such as Chromecast/Echo Dots. One can then wire these in to good downstream kit to get Sonos quality at prices that may at times even be significantly lower than Sonos.

For someone picking with some care, there has never been a time when excellent sound quality at home is as affordable as it is today, coupled with the huge access to music on the cheap, via streaming services.

A

 

Is Sonos really that bad for music and movies as well? I have no aspire to become an audiophile of any sort, but I was thinking of a pair of Fives in a near future to sit down in front and enjoy the sound. 


I am an audiophile and have owned McIntosh gear as well as Accuphase gear which is even pricier and better.  I have had a wide range of speakers, some of which were Stereophile Class A rated.  I think the original Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor and Cremona line were superb.

I had Devialet Phantom Silvers and currently have Sonos Fives with a Sub Gen 3.

There is a lot of snake oil in “audiophile circles” but one of the reasons McIntosh has been in business for so long is that their products are genuinely reliable and good.  Everyone will criticize their cost but that is a different question.  Sonus Faber is also a very well respected brand with some exceptional speakers in the past, and a mix of good and bad speakers today.  Craftsmanship is very nice although some of the older designs were better.

The premium setup is like flying First Class on a commercial airline.  It is objectively better, but that doesn’t mean that Economy Plus is horrible.  If you paired McIntosh electronics with something like the Revel Ultima Salon 2 speakers, you would have something that would always be superior to a Sonos in sound quality in blind testing.

For movies, the sky is the limit and reaching movie theater level volumes is harder the bigger your room is.  In the same way, a 55” TV is not as good as a 75” TV which isn’t as good as an 100” TV (if you are looking at the best representatives from each side).  You can still enjoy the TV show or movie on all systems *and* how close you sit to the TV matters. In the same way, the size of your audio room matters.

All that said, Sonos gives you exceptional performance and an exceptional price.  You need to move up to the price points of 2-3X the Sonos to get appreciably consistently better sound.

Sonos gives you economy plus airline performance for the price of a bus fare if you think about it that way.  That is how it is possible to be one of the best “values” yet still come short against a First Class experience.

The Sonos Five is a big actual dollar investment the way that a McIntosh/Sonus Faber setup is priced above a first clas air ticket, but I think even your friend would be impressed if you had a pair of Sonos Fives, properly placed on stands, a Sub, Trueplay enabled and used something like Amazon Music HD as a source.   The Sub adds bass but the big advantage is that it allows the Five to use its efforts on a narrower range of audio which improves sound quality.

ratty

Yes Sonos is that bad! Not because of the sound quality but because, if you get a multi-room system, you’ll discover it never works and no one can offer a long-term fix.

Really? I’ve had a Sonos system working fine for 14 years, and for all that time it’s been multi-room. If it was as bad as you make out, Sonos would have been out of business long ago.

To judge by your other thread you simply have a broken local network.

J

Yes Sonos is that bad! Not because of the sound quality but because, if you get a multi-room system, you’ll discover it never works and no one can offer a long-term fix. Just have a look at Sonos’ reviews on Trust Pilot…

Stanley_4
Userlevel 7
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Not ear buds but I can easily stream audio or TV to my hearing aids. Sounds pretty decent but eats a set of batteries quickly.

Before I got them I tried a few ear buds and a number of headphones and I just don’t like the way the music sounds. Open-air were better than closed, noise cancelling were worse for me in a quiet room but great on a plane or in a noisy workshop.

M
Userlevel 4
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Or “tokes”….-:)

Btw,I’m just kidding…..

Back to smart tech for a moment…..I have a suspicion that the real money in the tech related smart music  is Ear Buds!

I never gave them a thought and in order to not annoy my neighbors at night(with my big Sonos rig) I got the Sony XM-3 headphones…..Very nice…..but….In warmer weather I prefer something lighter on the ear,so I got a pair of superb Earbuds(Soundcore Liberty 2 Pro).

I was flabbergasted as to how good these little buggers are.I paid $99,98 shipped and the performance is so good that I can understand some folks just going with buds and nothing else,if you’re on a tight budget.

I believe there was a rumor,on one of the You-Tube sites(I think it may have been Peter Pee….Love that guy) claiming Sonos may be working on these devices.

Think about how many pairs of Ear Buds must sell worldwide…..Megabuck profit?

So cool!

Stanley_4
Userlevel 7
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Smoking anything with exposed vinyl? Nope, nope, nope not my precious vinyl!

K

Or a joint.-:)

Different strokes...:-)

M
Userlevel 4
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Or a joint.-:)

K

 

Have to admit,not having to get up out of my chair to change sides does not burn as many calories as listening to my records.-:)

Yep, but the pain of having to get up once properly sited at night with a glass of whisky in hand just to turn the side over finally leads to dumping vinyl once there is a viable option. Not to mention that the careful handling necessary for vinyl can be a challenge after more than a glass.

M
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I agree with Kumar,that for some reason Jazz albums seem to have superb signal to noise on my Sonos rig…...I’m completely satisfied.

Don’t get me started on my old,long since gone,but loved,Vinyl albums.

I had a Graham Phantom tonearm and a Transfiguration Orpheus cartridge,as well as Koetsu…..I always found each LP required not only a different VTA setting,but a subtle adjustment in the damping fluid.

Lp’s vary in thickness and when you are an audiophile fanatic(not a bad thing) you play around with this stuff…..It was fun,but having just finished a 2.5 hour Sonos listening session,I don’t miss it.

Have to admit,not having to get up out of my chair to change sides does not burn as many calories as listening to my records.-:)

Stanley_4
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For my ears and tinkering I loved the vinyl as I could do the tweaks and hear the differences. Ended up with two turntables, one with the arm height set for US and one for European cut LPs as I had a number of each.

Each had a collection of cartridges in various shapes to include the 50 KHz capable CD-4 Shibata that was essential as a conventional stylus would ruin the ultrasonic carrier in a couple plays. Just putting an LP on to play could take a half hour if I wanted to swap bits about.

And the cleaning… The Stereo and Quadraphonic discs were fussy enough but if you never heard a CD-4 disc hit a dust mote you can’t imagine it. More time in the cleaning machine than on the platter and even then it would sometimes pick up grit before the stylus got to the track. Closing the lid helped but then you were pretty much on headphones as the speakers would feed back (not a howl but a subtle, slightly delayed version of what was playing) and distort the sound.

I ended up copying all the Quad / CD-4 disks to four-track reel to reel tapes just so I could hear the music without all the prep. Noticeable degradation even at 15 IPS and the tapes were not cheap.

If I hadn’t been living in Japan and had access to the Military exchange system I’d probably still be paying off the piles of toys I picked up.

 

I never had a low-end CD player and my ears couldn’t hear any difference from the many CD tweaks so there was nothing there to play with. Sounded great but boring to use.

Streaming quality does matter, the bottom end options do sound bad but CD/FLAC and better MP3 streams sound good enough I can’t hear any issues.

 

Fun memories but this morning I walked in here, booted the computer and tapped the top of my One SL and had music playing before I got the BIOS screen up on the computer. So, yes fond memories but not something I want to do today.

K

but the music marketers have taken control and regular commercial music releases have the life compressed out of them.

I have found that for the genres I like - jazz and blues - this isn't so much of a thing, and I get the dynamic range I like to hear from new recordings as well. Of course, normalisation of sound levels in a playlist shuffled randomly is still an issue, but that is a different subject.

buzz

For some good fun with vinyl fans try discussing turntable cartridge and stylus types and proper setup. Very few have any clue about these.

 

It’s very difficult to discuss proper cartridge alignment because very little has been written about this.

For proper VTA (Vertical Tracking Angle) you need to fuss with each record. Probably the best approach is to use a calibrated, adjustable arm height and put a number on each record. Unfortunately, if you change cartridges or replace the stylus, you’ll need a new set of numbers. And, it’s more or less hopeless if the record is not perfectly flat.

With CD’s and digital in general we fret about bits and jitter, but I’ve seen very few records that are flat with the hole in the center and there are built-in tracking distortions due to the geometry of the situation.

Early CD players did not sound so good because the analog designers missed some basic digital fine points and the digital designers missed some basic analog fine points. And, the CD mastering process was not generally understood. Now we are passed this mess, but the music marketers have taken control and regular commercial music releases have the life compressed out of them. Records in the earlier generations were mastered before the draconian compressors were available. Of course we now can purchase our libraries (again) in “high-def”. In my opinion this is pointless unless the high-def version skips the compressor.

Stanley_4
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For some good fun with vinyl fans try discussing turntable cartridge and stylus types and proper setup. Very few have any clue about these.

European versus American vertical tracking angles and playback methods can be fun.

Turntable drive systems and bearing types are always good topics.

Of course then you can discuss surface cleaning and vinyl preservation options.

Maybe even signal to noise ratios or channel separation. Inner versus outer groove distortion is always fun as is album length versus low frequency roll-off. 

 

Used to be great fun, probably spent more time fussing about this stuff than all the rest of our systems put together.

Still I switched to CDs and then a CD changer and never looked back at my vinyl. Gave it all (about 18 linear feet) up in a move to a new lifestyle, sadly only a couple years before it would have been practical to rip copies of all of them. Good news is that almost everything I had is available over streaming.

M
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Agreed…..I had 3000Lp’s and 400 CD’s….but….I far prefer pushing my smart phone buttons….Basically,because I’m lazy.-:)

10 years from now,you won’t be able to give away LP’s…..and…..I loved them!

K

 

As much as I loved the stuff,traditional audio components are going the way of VCR’s.

Except perhaps for vinyl that may still retain a following - there is still something to be said for the charm of all the visible engineering and being able to interact with it more than just the usual swiping or button pressing.

M
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I am fairly certain that the audio component/music industry is on the cusp of a revolution….That being the plethora of affordable/high quality smart speakers,either out now,or coming down the road in the next 2 years.

There are probably quite a few companies that we don’t even know about yet,who offer superb sound and value.

Sonos being at the top of the list,so far.

No wonder their stock went from $15 per share,when I bought my set up 20 months ago,to $40 per share today.

As much as I loved the stuff,traditional audio components are going the way of VCR’s.

K

In recent weeks I have also discovered another reference point for sound quality - studio monitors. I have added a pair, that is in the bedroom sourcing music from an Echo Show 5 and also serving to elevate the sound from the bedroom TV. With no separate box for the amp, the install is very tidy. I found that I needed to play around with the EQ knobs to get the sound I like and I am quite pleased at the outcome on the value for money front as well.

As a product type, such monitors are more HiFi than audiophile kit, using the strict meaning of the term HiFi. But you will never see them in the typical audiophile set up, even with models that can be tuned to sound more like domestic kit.

And although I have no plans to test this, I suspect there is a better chance of picking out things like lossless v lossy using these, as opposed to domestic kit of any kind. But using these has had no impact on how good I find the music to be in my Sonos zones.

If one can live with their industrial looks with no grilles, there are many excellent examples of value for money in this category - all they need in a domestic environment is something like an Echo - even a Dot - as a source. I also find that many vinyl fans use these to make a simple set up for accessing vinyl.

K

Let the audiophile enjoy his custom rig.

Oh absolutely. It is only when they claim that their rig or superior hearing is what lets only they able to pick out lossless v Hi Res v 256/320 lossy even from the same master, that I think they ought to be called out. Especially when this is done in non enthusiast forums such as this one.

buzz

Cars are similar. Some fans with shiny custom rigs spend all weekend tuning while other fans with old clunkers are out and about visiting all sorts of interesting places. Both types enjoy their car, but in different ways. Personally, I appreciate high tech car toys as engineering marvels, but I’d never own one. If a car gets me there on time and I’m dry, it has done its job.

In some respects you could throw me into the Audiophile bin because I can make some awkward observations (‘buzz’ -- get it?). Self proclaimed Audiophiles don’t usually appreciate having me around because I can backup my observations with science. I don’t need to claim better than human hearing, I just pay attention.

Many cite the goal of “concert hall sound” from their audio system. Unfortunately, I don’t know what that is because the sound is different with different seats in the hall. In one case I was in a very bad seat in a world class hall and I can only describe the sound as ‘terrible’ -- in that seat because of an unfortunate echo off a nearby wall. If my audio system sounded like that I’d simply turn it off. I was glad when that concert ended.

In the end only you know what sounds ‘best’ (to you). Let the audiophile enjoy his custom rig.

M
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I really think many audiophile types(I was one for decades) forgot why they got into this in the first place.

It was not to play with cool looking equipment,or tweak,upgrade components every time a reviewer gave a thumbs up to something,or hear the rosin on A violin string!

It “was” to listen to lots of music,hopefully well recorded and played back in good sound.At least that’s what it was to me.

In my old-ish age I’ve gotten a bit lazy…...I like the no hassle approach of these new music components…..Which sound pretty darn good and I’ve had/heard and owned it all….Almost.-:)

 

K

 

Lossy,lossless you’re not going to care…..That is incredible sound,by any standard!

 

New music and plenty of it.-:)

But, to quote the pest on the other thread: Sonos isn't HiFi:grinning:

And yes, access to so much more music is so easy these days - where music listening is concerned, these really are the best of times. 

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