The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

K

I will start this thread with a few caveats:

First, this thread is not for rants. There are plenty here for those, and there is no bar on opening new ones.

Second, the thread is directed for the subset of users that have a large investment in legacy products, and are content to see their Sonos systems as music systems that offer stable streamed music from either a NAS or from the net, and have no expectation of more bells and whistles - just that things continue to work as they are working today. I happen to be in this boat as well, as someone that has three out of six zones running very well on legacy products that I simply cannot afford to jettison until the hardware dies.

Third, this thread is based on facts, some of which have been coming to light only over the last 48 or so hours. It is therefore incomplete to an extent, and may even be wrong in places. Feel free therefore to clarify/correct/add as necessary - and I specifically invite @Ryan S  to do so. But, no rants please - they have a place, but this is not it.

All that said, this is the solution I intend to proceed with and recommend here:

Opt for a legacy system operation in May, that will run legacy and modern products, exactly as these run today; no faffing around with two networks. No more enhancements, but expecting Sonos to honestly fulfil their recent promise of all bug fixes that the legacy products can accommodate. Ditto for what needs to be done to accommodate changes driven by at least the mainstream service providers.

By a happy coincidence, all legacy products have line in jacks. So if something even happens at the streaming service end that cannot be accommodated in legacy products, I am confident of finding some device that can be wired to the line in jacks of these, that will still allow streaming from the culprit service to work including in grouped mode with all other products in the system.

The streaming from the local NAS will not have any issues in this mode, other than hardware failures including that of the NAS, and a key assumption here is that NAS changes will not need a Sonos software update.

Although Sonos has said that new products can be added to such a system, I do not see how this is possible once new products come installed with versions that are beyond the frozen legacy system one. Unless Sonos is not going to sell any new products in future with versions beyond the 2020 legacy one - I doubt that. And once a product comes with the latest version, adding it to a legacy system without rendering legacy products inoperable is going to be tricky because it will involve first separating the one system into two; I also admit to being a little fuzzy with this bit. In my case, this is all moot; I have no need for another zone. As an aside, I am someone therefore that is not of much interest to Sonos!

I also assume that if anyone at any time in the future wanted to jettison legacy products for any reason, all they will need to do is leave all such products powered off, invoke updates and the result will be a Sonos system updated to the day they do the invocation. The concern here for me is different - I need to have an ironclad way of NOT updating my system before I am ready to separate or jettison legacy products, and this needs more insights into how things will work on this front in future.

I am pretty sure that this way ahead will work in my use case and I suggest it will also work for many that are heavily invested in Sonos legacy products, that do not want to write it off or to trade up to new products just to retain all existing functionality.

Yes, it involves losing future enhancements/features, but once we accept that these essentially are music boxes that will keep doing all they do today, that should be an acceptable trade off, I suggest. It is to me, for sure.

So this way, this event will be just a minor inconvenience, and I expect to be able to use all my existing products till the hardware fails.

What this event has convince me though is to now look at/recommend smart systems that are truly modular in the sense that the smart bits can be periodically replaced at low cost, while the core “dumb” electronic hardware can be of such build/after sales support, that it justifies the higher investment in the consequent price, if better sound quality is also needed than what the smart front ends can alone provide. But that's for the future.

 

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570 replies

Ken_Griffiths

The obvious question to anyone here that has a bricked 5: what happens if you plug a phone playing music into the line in jack of a 5? Does it even boot up if power is applied?

These are actually very important questions for thread followers, that someone here ought to be able to answer in five minutes - anyone that opted for Trade Up and has a bricked unit lying around. What happens if power is applied to the unit? If it boots up, as my offline units do, are the Line in jacks then still active as they are in my case? Perhaps this will work for bricked units only If Autoplay option for the Line In was on at the time of bricking...

I have some slight concern with some of the things 'hinted' at here…

I thought the Sonos trade-up “agreement” was part of a firm undertaking to also responsibly recycle the Sonos product as part of receiving the 30% discount voucher. In fact Sonos also offer the customer a shipping label to return the goods for recycling, if there are no recycling options open to the customer in their local area. 

Would the action your proposing here Kumar risk users 'perhaps' breaking that agreement and cause them the (slight) possibility of losing their discount, or perhaps being asked to pay it back, if they continue to use their device via the line-in?… I’m not sure that it’s wise to propose such a course of action, as that surely leaves people in a slightly precarious position, and do you really want to advise people around the globe to try to keep their devices running after entering their devices into the trade-up process? At least that’s how I am reading the suggestion here and others appear to be hinting at it too.

It’s absolutely fine though, if the user chooses not to trade-up for the discount on offer. I think that should be made clear.

Just saying ..🤔

K

@Ken_Griffiths :

I honestly don't give a damn about going against this “responsible recycle” stunt by Sonos which I believe to be hot air and sales promotion - full stop. There are reports in connection with the Trade Up scheme from landfill operators in the UK that were honest enough to say that all such “recycling” just ends up as bigger landfills and not as something that is actually recycled back into a new product. Doing that for plastic bags and tin cans is one thing; doing that for a Connect Amp is a completely different kettle of fish, and expensive to boot.

So, I am not hinting at anything, I am saying it in no uncertain terms. And people breaking any such agreement with Sonos are doing the planet a favour it now needs. Every drop in it helps make the ocean.

Will Sonos risk further PR disasters by even trying to proceed against someone that succeeds in using a Sonos bricked unit - even I can't see them being that stupid now.

But: there is also nothing that stops people from taking your advice either. Just saying…

All the above said, this use is not the real thing of interest to this thread, so pardon this rant, because this Sonos action has changed me overnight from evangelist to... even anti Sonos, you might say.

What is of real interest to this thread isn’t your advice or mine in connection with bricked recycled products, but what a successful test will show:  that legacy unrecycled units working in dumb mode can survive even a complete Sonos meltdown, even where their servers go offline. Will some then use this knowledge to get a 30% discount from Sonos while retaining the products or selling or gifting them? Perhaps, and if they do, it can be seen as payback for what Sonos has done to them. Again, it will be fun to see Sonos take legal action against these people. Would I do it - since the Trade up scheme is not available where I stay, this is a hypothetical question that I will not answer. 

Do I wish the meltdown fate on Sonos - No. Do I want to know how to keep my investment in Sonos viable if that happens - you bet. And it is those questions that are of interest, which you have left out while selectively capturing what I have said in your quote.

K

Further to the above, a Sonos with a long term vision for a better future for its customers, the environment and consequently itself may even change the 30% scheme to legitimise what I have said people may do with legacy products.

Yes, that will get under the skin of those that sent their products to a landfill for the 30%, but that can be considered a trivial issue if the principle of sunk costs is understood and applied by them to this situation. 

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

 

I don't even expect it to be free, just low cost.  If a 200 dollar box would keep legacy products viable I would be good with that.  I don't see it as a dongle but more along the lines of a box that does the processing for legacy devices, essentially turning them into dumb speakers that just play the music stream.

I don’t see why the legacy speakers have to be dumb… They’ve been streaming in sync and working fine for over a decade, so there’s no reason why they can’t handle most things - just not the new facilities. If all the non essential stuff was stripped out of the legacy build, they have even more space available.

By dumb I was thinking more along the lines as in if the speaker can't do the required task like syncing with a stream involving modern gear, the box handles the smart part and the speaker just receives the stream.  I agree you wouldn't want the legacy systems to lose any of their current functionality.  I guess dumb speakers is not the appropriate term for this.

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

The obvious question to anyone here that has a bricked 5: what happens if you plug a phone playing music into the line in jack of a 5? Does it even boot up if power is applied?

These are actually very important questions for thread followers, that someone here ought to be able to answer in five minutes - anyone that opted for Trade Up and has a bricked unit lying around. What happens if power is applied to the unit? If it boots up, as my offline units do, are the Line in jacks then still active as they are in my case? Perhaps this will work for bricked units only If Autoplay option for the Line In was on at the time of bricking...

The answers are important because if such a unit works as a dumb device, that is solid reassurance for the rest of us here that there is nothing that Sonos can do to brick our Connect/Connect Amp/5 by any act of commission. Acts of omission like not providing updates is their hands, but if acts of commission that prevent the units from working as dumb products when supplied a signal by Line In are not doable, then it does not matter to these units if Sonos even were to go bankrupt and their servers were to go offline. 

Selecting Line In Autoplay ON for all legacy units via the controller today, and leaving it ON forever, may then be a very good precaution to take. It can't hurt, but may end up being a hardware life saver.  

I would also be curious to understand how the line in feature works just without network connectivy.  While I don't believe sonos would forcibly brick a unit against a customers will, I do wonder if a connect amp could be run as a dumb amp without being part of the sonos network.  Not that it would be my choice but if things got to a really negative point with sonos, could you hook up a pair of passive speakers to the connect amp, remove sonos software from your system and then hook up an echo dot to the line in and still have a decent quality non sonos stereo.  My guess would be no, but even something like that might help those with legacy connect amps not feel like their amps are garbage.  I don't own a connect amp but I wonder if this could be tested by just turning off WiFi to the house for a few minutes and then plugging a phone or CD player into the line in port.  Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

Ken_Griffiths

@Ken_Griffiths :

I honestly don't give a damn about going against this “responsible recycle” stunt by Sonos which I believe to be hot air and sales promotion - full stop. There are reports in connection with the Trade Up scheme from landfill operators in the UK that were honest enough to say that all such “recycling” just ends up as bigger landfills and not as something that is actually recycled back into a new product. Doing that for plastic bags and tin cans is one thing; doing that for a Connect Amp is a completely different kettle of fish, and expensive to boot.

So, I am not hinting at anything, I am saying it in no uncertain terms. And people breaking any such agreement with Sonos are doing the planet a favour it now needs. Every drop in it helps make the ocean.

Will Sonos risk further PR disasters by even trying to proceed against someone that succeeds in using a Sonos bricked unit - even I can't see them being that stupid now.

But: there is also nothing that stops people from taking your advice either. Just saying…

All the above said, this use is not the real thing of interest to this thread, so pardon this rant, because this Sonos action has changed me overnight from evangelist to... even anti Sonos, you might say.

What is of real interest to this thread isn’t your advice or mine in connection with bricked recycled products, but what a successful test will show:  that legacy unrecycled units working in dumb mode can survive even a complete Sonos meltdown, even where their servers go offline. Will some then use this knowledge to get a 30% discount from Sonos while retaining the products or selling or gifting them? Perhaps, and if they do, it can be seen as payback for what Sonos has done to them. Again, it will be fun to see Sonos take legal action against these people. Would I do it - since the Trade up scheme is not available where I stay, this is a hypothetical question that I will not answer. 

Do I wish the meltdown fate on Sonos - No. Do I want to know how to keep my investment in Sonos viable if that happens - you bet. And it is those questions that are of interest, which you have left out while selectively capturing what I have said in your quote.

I see you are now emphasising that users should try to use their traded-up deactivated legacy products. 

Isn’t that actively 'inciting’ other users to perhaps 'lie' to Sonos in the trade-up agreement process and to take the 30% discount voucher on offer, which may subsequently result in transactions of many hundreds of dollars/pounds/euros per user worldwide etc. and then not go through with the agreement of ‘responsibly recycling’ their deactivated product, but to continue to use their device… isn’t that inciting others to commit fraud?

You also appear to try to justify your comments by stating that U.K. recyclers have admitted to taking such things to landfill… even if that were true, it does not justify you encouraging others here to try to defraud Sonos via the trade-up scheme, if anything you should have perhaps opted to inform others to not use the scheme in the first place, rather than attempt to take the discount and then still use their devices.

I personally think those posts of encouragement to act 'dishonestly' should be removed from the community.

A

Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

I don’t have any bricked units, but I’ve been running Sonos kit locked off for a while now, purely for local streaming. I’ve also left the system locked from updates off whilst allowing internet streaming, and that works OK.

Yesterday I was streaming music from my NAS to a Play 5 using a Chromecast Audio into the line-in - works fine. However, since Sonos enforced the log-in side of things, it seems to me (I could be wrong) that they are now holding more settings at account level, rather than locally. For example, there’s a setting on the devices for max volume, which I would have just held locally. However, AFAICS the device now has to be able to access the internet for this to work, otherwise it doesn’t ‘stick’. Consequently, I’ve set it back to the usual 100% - just in case. I have no intention of keep opening my system up just to make a minor change.

It would be interesting to know how a bricked unit would work, though...

Smilja

Has anybody already tried to use the line-in on a device that has been deployed into recycle mode? I’d say the line-in is tied to the operating environment for the device and will no longer work.

»And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space, Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.« (›Windmills Of Your Mind‹ [1967]. Music by Michel Legrand ; English lyrics written by Alan & Marilyn Bergman)
M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

I don’t have any bricked units, but I’ve been running Sonos kit locked off for a while now, purely for local streaming. I’ve also left the system locked from updates off whilst allowing internet streaming, and that works OK.

Yesterday I was streaming music from my NAS to a Play 5 using a Chromecast Audio into the line-in - works fine. However, since Sonos enforced the log-in side of things, it seems to me (I could be wrong) that they are now holding more settings at account level, rather than locally. For example, there’s a setting on the devices for max volume, which I would have just held locally. However, AFAICS the device now has to be able to access the internet for this to work, otherwise it doesn’t ‘stick’. Consequently, I’ve set it back to the usual 100% - just in case. I have no intention of keep opening my system up just to make a minor change.

It would be interesting to know how a bricked unit would work, though...

I hadn't even thought about settings held at the account level and of having to be logged into my account.  Interesting. 

 

I don't want to sound too jaded against one company but it does seem to be an issue to consider when purchasing any smart tech.  If I buy a smart fridge and that company no longer supports the model (Or goes out of business) does my whole refrigerator no longer work or does just the smart features not work.

A

Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

I don’t have any bricked units, but I’ve been running Sonos kit locked off for a while now, purely for local streaming. I’ve also left the system locked from updates off whilst allowing internet streaming, and that works OK.

Yesterday I was streaming music from my NAS to a Play 5 using a Chromecast Audio into the line-in - works fine. However, since Sonos enforced the log-in side of things, it seems to me (I could be wrong) that they are now holding more settings at account level, rather than locally. For example, there’s a setting on the devices for max volume, which I would have just held locally. However, AFAICS the device now has to be able to access the internet for this to work, otherwise it doesn’t ‘stick’. Consequently, I’ve set it back to the usual 100% - just in case. I have no intention of keep opening my system up just to make a minor change.

It would be interesting to know how a bricked unit would work, though...

I hadn't even thought about settings held at the account level and of having to be logged into my account.  Interesting. 

 

I don't want to sound too jaded against one company but it does seem to be an issue to consider when purchasing any smart tech.  If I buy a smart fridge and that company no longer supports the model (Or goes out of business) does my whole refrigerator no longer work or does just the smart features not work.

As Kumar mentioned earlier, I think that this applies to all smart tech, so I share your concerns… I’ll stick with my old reliable non-internet connected fridge for now, I think :wink:

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

I don’t have any bricked units, but I’ve been running Sonos kit locked off for a while now, purely for local streaming. I’ve also left the system locked from updates off whilst allowing internet streaming, and that works OK.

Yesterday I was streaming music from my NAS to a Play 5 using a Chromecast Audio into the line-in - works fine. However, since Sonos enforced the log-in side of things, it seems to me (I could be wrong) that they are now holding more settings at account level, rather than locally. For example, there’s a setting on the devices for max volume, which I would have just held locally. However, AFAICS the device now has to be able to access the internet for this to work, otherwise it doesn’t ‘stick’. Consequently, I’ve set it back to the usual 100% - just in case. I have no intention of keep opening my system up just to make a minor change.

It would be interesting to know how a bricked unit would work, though...

I hadn't even thought about settings held at the account level and of having to be logged into my account.  Interesting. 

 

I don't want to sound too jaded against one company but it does seem to be an issue to consider when purchasing any smart tech.  If I buy a smart fridge and that company no longer supports the model (Or goes out of business) does my whole refrigerator no longer work or does just the smart features not work.

As Kumar mentioned earlier, I think that this applies to all smart tech, so I share your concerns… I’ll stick with my old reliable non-internet connected fridge for now, I think :wink:

Me too.  My fridge and stove both date back to the 1970s and work great.  My parents are on their third fridge since they moved into a retirement community 19 years ago.  Always seems to be the "computer board" (whatever that means) that gives out in their case.

K

 could you hook up a pair of passive speakers to the connect amp, remove sonos software from your system and then hook up an echo dot to the line in and still have a decent quality non sonos stereo.  My guess would be no, but even something like that might help those with legacy connect amps not feel like their amps are garbage.  I don't own a connect amp but I wonder if this could be tested by just turning off WiFi to the house for a few minutes and then plugging a phone or CD player into the line in port.  Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

@MikeOinToronto : I don't remove Sonos software from it of course, but as I have reported on more than one thread here as well as many times on this one, I run a Connect Amp, with its WiFi disabled, with Sonos net turned off, all the time via Echo Show into Line In jacks when I don't want to waste electricity keeping my 6 zone system powered up.

By the way, you don't have a 5, you don't have a Connect Amp - what legacy product DO you have?!

Because this can be tested on Connect as well!

K

Being told to act honestly with Sonos at a time when Sonos has been shown to be dishonest more than once takes the cake. Ah well; it takes all sorts.

Moving on...

K

Has anybody already tried to use the line-in on a device that has been deployed into recycle mode? I’d say the line-in is tied to the operating environment for the device and will no longer work.

Good question; answer awaited:-).

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

 could you hook up a pair of passive speakers to the connect amp, remove sonos software from your system and then hook up an echo dot to the line in and still have a decent quality non sonos stereo.  My guess would be no, but even something like that might help those with legacy connect amps not feel like their amps are garbage.  I don't own a connect amp but I wonder if this could be tested by just turning off WiFi to the house for a few minutes and then plugging a phone or CD player into the line in port.  Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

@MikeOinToronto : I don't remove Sonos software from it of course, but as I have reported on more than one thread here as well as many times on this one, I run a Connect Amp, with its WiFi disabled, with Sonos net turned off, all the time via Echo Show into Line In jacks when I don't want to waste electricity keeping my 6 zone system powered up.

By the way, you don't have a 5, you don't have a Connect Amp - what legacy product DO you have?!

Because this can be tested on Connect as well!

Hi Kumar.  

Sorry I must have missed the WiFi turned off part on your setup.  Have read way too many posts over the last week and a half and my brain is fried from this.

 I actually do not have any legacy products.  I have a modern sonos connect and two play ones, as well as five echo dots and one echo.  I guess I could test the modern connect as there is a line in but I doubt anyone would continue to use these if they were going entirely away from sonos as their are no amp or speakers so why would it continue to be used.  So in my case I will just leave it as is receiving updates and as a modern system. 

My more personal concern will be the next round when undoubtedly the play ones will be the next to go.  And I am also interested in this thread from a perspective of how can a customer protect their own interests and investments when a tech company decides to change direction.

K

I guess I could test the modern connect as there is a line in but I doubt anyone would continue to use these if they were going entirely away from sonos as their are no amp or speakers so why would it continue to be used. 

 

And I am also interested in this thread from a perspective of how can a customer protect their own interests and investments when a tech company decides to change direction.

It would continue to be used by you the way you are using it today! So what stops you from running an easy test today?

And, to the second bit quoted, the best way of learning is by doing - which you can if you choose to.

K

@Smilja : let’s assume for discussion that the Line In is architected to not need the operating environment - an assumption based on how my Connect Amp Line In works with just mains power, no WiFi, and a signal sensed at the jacks. It even boots up in that environment. I can only make assumptions since I have no access to a bricked for recycling product.

If it did work based on the above, what next? 

Smilja

@Smilja : let’s assume for discussion that the Line In is architected to not need the operating environment - an assumption based on how my Connect Amp Line In works with just mains power, no WiFi, and a signal sensed at the jacks. It even boots up in that environment. I can only make assumptions since I have no access to a bricked for recycling product.

If it did work based on the above, what next? 

 

Your Connect:AMP is still driven by the firmware installed on the unit. The test requires a device with defunct firmware.

»And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space, Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.« (›Windmills Of Your Mind‹ [1967]. Music by Michel Legrand ; English lyrics written by Alan & Marilyn Bergman)
K

@Smilja I know; and I don't have such a device and will never be able to get one.

Are you saying then the recycling deletes the firmware? Because there may be a possibility that merely defunct as opposed to deleted firmware may still allow Line IN to work. A hypothesis that needs a test to prove. 

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

 

It would continue to be used by you the way you are using it today! So what stops you from running an easy test today?

 

If I left the sonos environment I would just disconnect the sonos connect and take the line out from an echo dot directly to My receiver.  The only function of the connect in my environment is to allow me to use the sonos infrastructure with my vintage audio system.  I agree I could test if it would work without wifi but I just can't see anything gained by using a connect if you were not using sonos anymore.  The connect amp and play 5s however could continue to provide amplification and/Or amp speaker functionality in another infrastructure providing line in functions without a sonos controller of some kind.

Smilja

I am going to trade-in my two Play:5s early in March, and I suppose they will be plain dead after walking the (green) mile. I shall see.

Trade Up Program

»And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space, Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.« (›Windmills Of Your Mind‹ [1967]. Music by Michel Legrand ; English lyrics written by Alan & Marilyn Bergman)
chickentender

Personally really don’t think ruminating on trade-up plan particulars, conscionable or no, is useful in this thread. That’s covered ad nauseum elsewhere. (I’ve my own feelings about it and they’re strong, but I can’t connect those feelings to a device.)

Smilja

No strong feelings here, maybe a wee bit melancholic. Parting ways is never easy, but often the right move - particularly when coming events cast their shadows before.

»And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space, Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.« (›Windmills Of Your Mind‹ [1967]. Music by Michel Legrand ; English lyrics written by Alan & Marilyn Bergman)
K

To me it is useful only as a reinforcement to an assurance that even if Sonos were to go belly up, line in equipped Sonos hardware would keep going on. Supplied by devices like echo that would also do things like grouping multiple units. Trade up isn't available in India and I do not expect it ever will be and I don't have any strong feelings about that - if any, these are of being happy it will never come, we have enough issues with trash management. 

Smilja

To me it is useful only as a reinforcement to an assurance that even if Sonos were to go belly up, line in equipped Sonos hardware would keep going on. Supplied by devices like echo that would also do things like grouping multiple units. Trade up isn't available in India and I do not expect it ever will be and I don't have any strong feelings about that - if any, these are of being happy it will never come, we have enough issues with trash management. 

 

Amazon would cut the cord in that case, just as any other service currently available on Sonos would.

»And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space, Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.« (›Windmills Of Your Mind‹ [1967]. Music by Michel Legrand ; English lyrics written by Alan & Marilyn Bergman)
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