The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

K

I will start this thread with a few caveats:

First, this thread is not for rants. There are plenty here for those, and there is no bar on opening new ones.

Second, the thread is directed for the subset of users that have a large investment in legacy products, and are content to see their Sonos systems as music systems that offer stable streamed music from either a NAS or from the net, and have no expectation of more bells and whistles - just that things continue to work as they are working today. I happen to be in this boat as well, as someone that has three out of six zones running very well on legacy products that I simply cannot afford to jettison until the hardware dies.

Third, this thread is based on facts, some of which have been coming to light only over the last 48 or so hours. It is therefore incomplete to an extent, and may even be wrong in places. Feel free therefore to clarify/correct/add as necessary - and I specifically invite @Ryan S  to do so. But, no rants please - they have a place, but this is not it.

All that said, this is the solution I intend to proceed with and recommend here:

Opt for a legacy system operation in May, that will run legacy and modern products, exactly as these run today; no faffing around with two networks. No more enhancements, but expecting Sonos to honestly fulfil their recent promise of all bug fixes that the legacy products can accommodate. Ditto for what needs to be done to accommodate changes driven by at least the mainstream service providers.

By a happy coincidence, all legacy products have line in jacks. So if something even happens at the streaming service end that cannot be accommodated in legacy products, I am confident of finding some device that can be wired to the line in jacks of these, that will still allow streaming from the culprit service to work including in grouped mode with all other products in the system.

The streaming from the local NAS will not have any issues in this mode, other than hardware failures including that of the NAS, and a key assumption here is that NAS changes will not need a Sonos software update.

Although Sonos has said that new products can be added to such a system, I do not see how this is possible once new products come installed with versions that are beyond the frozen legacy system one. Unless Sonos is not going to sell any new products in future with versions beyond the 2020 legacy one - I doubt that. And once a product comes with the latest version, adding it to a legacy system without rendering legacy products inoperable is going to be tricky because it will involve first separating the one system into two; I also admit to being a little fuzzy with this bit. In my case, this is all moot; I have no need for another zone. As an aside, I am someone therefore that is not of much interest to Sonos!

I also assume that if anyone at any time in the future wanted to jettison legacy products for any reason, all they will need to do is leave all such products powered off, invoke updates and the result will be a Sonos system updated to the day they do the invocation. The concern here for me is different - I need to have an ironclad way of NOT updating my system before I am ready to separate or jettison legacy products, and this needs more insights into how things will work on this front in future.

I am pretty sure that this way ahead will work in my use case and I suggest it will also work for many that are heavily invested in Sonos legacy products, that do not want to write it off or to trade up to new products just to retain all existing functionality.

Yes, it involves losing future enhancements/features, but once we accept that these essentially are music boxes that will keep doing all they do today, that should be an acceptable trade off, I suggest. It is to me, for sure.

So this way, this event will be just a minor inconvenience, and I expect to be able to use all my existing products till the hardware fails.

What this event has convince me though is to now look at/recommend smart systems that are truly modular in the sense that the smart bits can be periodically replaced at low cost, while the core “dumb” electronic hardware can be of such build/after sales support, that it justifies the higher investment in the consequent price, if better sound quality is also needed than what the smart front ends can alone provide. But that's for the future.

 

This topic has been closed for further comments. You can use the search bar to find a similar topic, or create a new one by clicking Create Topic at the top of the page.

570 replies

E
Userlevel 2
Badge

If you want a similar set up in its concept, go ahead and buy the Sonos amp. Or, if you can find an unbricked one, a used Connect Amp as long as your speakers are able to deliver with the 55 watts that the amp delivers.

But in both cases, the Sonos controller interface is a must. If you despise that as you say, you have to also give up obtaining grouped play for this new zone with the play 5 units.

Wanting music storage in such a system starts getting complicated though. Other than that, it should be quite feasible, although since I don't know winamp I can't offer specifics.

 

Ty for the reply. Unfortunately, using the sonos controller is sort of a deal breaker for me. I think I would rather go wired then having to endure sonos controller again. Winamp is fast, effortless and customizable. I really miss the control over my music lists and how I can drag and drop songs into the current play list. It even searches for duplicates…..wow, can you imagine that. (sarcasm). I would post a screen shot of it, but it might be out of topic.

R
Userlevel 5
Badge +11

Thank you Kumar & Ken for your thoughts it would still be good for  @Ryan S to provide a definitive answer to the question “Post May can I purchase an existing modern Sonos product and add it to a legacy environment”. If the answer is yes then the Brexit options are wider and from a Sonos point of view it means the potential for a revenue stream of a few more years from customers with a legacy environment.

My guess is that there will be a Software release (call it 10.99) that will be required to run the legacy environment so that Sonos can keep everything as simple as possible. Sonos could then release new products that are capable of running 10.99 but without any of the new features available in 11x onward (E.G a Sonos Show with a screen, that when connected to the legacy the screen is just blank).

This still does not meet my desired solution but would go a long way to making this Brexit more palatable.   

 

E
Userlevel 2
Badge

Regarding getting used equipment to fill in holes in your system….how can you tell if it has been put into recycle mode?

What happens in this process? Do users actually have to return the speaker (or whatever) to sonos to get the 30% off or could the user put it into recycle mode to get the 30 % off and then sell that item on ebay etc.

 

 

E
Userlevel 2
Badge

My guess is that there will be a Software release (call it 10.99) that will be required to run the legacy environment so that Sonos can keep everything as simple as possible. Sonos could then release new products that are capable of running 10.99 but without any of the new features available in 11x onward. That still does not meet my desired solution but would go a long way to making this Brexit more palatable.   

 

I dont see it working any other way to be honest. And someone asked about using equipment in both legacy and modern systems….I dont think this would be work because of the software version would be different. Wouldnt a legacy system have to be fully separate from a modern one. This would means having multiple copies of items. Seems far simpler but hella expensive. If only the versioning system was not engineered to it.,,that would fix alot of problems.

 

 

A
Userlevel 5
Badge +5

If you want a similar set up in its concept, go ahead and buy the Sonos amp. Or, if you can find an unbricked one, a used Connect Amp as long as your speakers are able to deliver with the 55 watts that the amp delivers.

But in both cases, the Sonos controller interface is a must. If you despise that as you say, you have to also give up obtaining grouped play for this new zone with the play 5 units.

Wanting music storage in such a system starts getting complicated though. Other than that, it should be quite feasible, although since I don't know winamp I can't offer specifics.

 

Ty for the reply. Unfortunately, using the sonos controller is sort of a deal breaker for me. I think I would rather go wired then having to endure sonos controller again. Winamp is fast, effortless and customizable. I really miss the control over my music lists and how I can drag and drop songs into the current play list. It even searches for duplicates…..wow, can you imagine that. (sarcasm). I would post a screen shot of it, but it might be out of topic.

With regard to the sonos controller. I used to have 4 of the cr200 all were replaced at least twice with the dreaded dead screen issue, so a return to using sonos controllers is also a no no for me. In fact all 4 were taken back by sonos uk via my dealer at the time with a full refund of there cost as they clearly weren't fit for purpose. As to the current issue it could be claimed the same applies and if it comes to pass that sonos does not seriously rethink its stance then I'm going to do the same with my legacy items.

U
Userlevel 6
Badge +4

Greetings, All (though SONOS probably won’t read this; they’ll all be lying down in darkened rooms or revising their CVs).

Having followed this for a few days of days (has it only been that long?), here are my (final) thoughts. 

I’ve been researching and collating quite a lot recently and this is the repository of my current impressions.  I’ll be posting it in both https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/end-of-software-support-clarifications-6835969 and https://en.community.sonos.com/controllers-software-228995/the-sonos-brexit-and-a-pragmatic-way-past-it-6836056 .  Apologies if this is long; it’s become complex; but is definitely no rant, just my personal views.

The CEO’s email does nothing to allay my own fears going forward.  I have legacy and ‘modern’ (for now) dumb, (not voice) audio devices within ear-shot of each other.  My only route is to keep my system locked in its present form as they confirm that legacy and modern system areas cannot be grouped in synchrony https://en.community.sonos.com/wireless-speakers-228992/will-i-still-be-able-to-group-new-and-old-products-together-and-receive-updates-on-newer-products-6836043 .  I suspect this is a consequence of the decision that SONOS made in its infancy to have distributed rather than centralized intelligence using a Precision Time Protocol (probably IEEE 1588-2002).  This is worth a read: https://www.sonos.com/en-gb/how-it-started but I expect it’s had consequences as soon as the design philosophy was set; the 65k limit for example and the inability to use anything other than PCM stereo.  SONOS architecture was set with “Any Song. Any Room.”  Frankly anything else has always been a stretch and I suspect this distributed intelligence would preclude the much vaulted request to have a central memory hub handling legacy devices.

SONOS’ recent decision over legacy devices may eventually open up lots of new possibilities, which the user community has been asking for on these pages for many years.  These could include bluetooth, and any number of ‘cinema’ enhancements (DTS or Dolby Atmos), but clearly voice seems to be something of a next step after buying Snips (https://investors.sonos.com/news-and-events/investor-news/latest-news/2019/Sonos-Announces-Acquisition-of-Snips/default.aspx).  In order to make use of this it will have to weather its recent storm.  For the time being SONOS is a cash-wealthy company; I think Snips cost $37M and back in September 2019 they announced a $50M stock buy back programme.  They apparently have $298.5M cash (https://thefly.com/landingPageNews.php?id=2957758&headline=SONO-Sonos-approves-M-share-repurchase-program). SONOS has also been bringing to market a lot of new devices and speakers in recent years.  While most of these are just new versions of old, the line-up has expanded with ‘architectural solutions’ (speakers to you and me) and the Move.  I think this has been long overdue and may have tempted new adopters to multi-room ecosystems to plump for SONOS in comparison to any of the increasing number of alternatives, especially for people with outdoor spaces.  The point here is even new versions or old solutions plus the new devices will have been expensive to develop.  I think SONOS has been wise to expand its line-up.

Among technology journalists, the reaction to SONOS’ decision over legacy devices has been a bit of a shrug, in my opinion.  Lots of “Well, what do you expect from tech?”, “SONOS has been brave in coming clean over this” and “This is probably the first, but not the last time we hear of this”.  In contrast, the user community has been livid.  Within a few hours of the announcement the first forum (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/end-of-software-updates-for-legacy-products-6835470) had 1378 replies, 53464 views and reached 56 pages before being closed down for reasons that I cannot fathom, except SONOS didn’t like what they were hearing.  The later one (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/end-of-software-support-clarifications-6835969) now stands at roughly 2250 replies, 97,882 views and ~103 pages and counting.  Almost entirely universally the comments are highly critical and damning of the recent decision.  They accuse SONOS of being arrogant and the announcement hastily announced, crude in nature and a slap in the face to those who have spent the most over the longest period and who have probably been the most evangelical about the brand for the longest time to friends and family. 

This loss of trust that very many now feel is precisely because most brand or ecosystem adopters don't (can’t) rush out and fill a house with devices; instead they build systems over many years as needs evolve and funds allow and when an announcement of this magnitude drops into the inbox of the most loyal customers then the consequence is the fury that was unleashed.  While SONOS did hint at this in their Annual Report (https://s22.q4cdn.com/672173472/files/doc_financials/2019/q4/52d86c5b-248f-4939-aa85-1489c1828e7f.pdf#page=17) and they spell out very many risk factors that the company faces; these are both external and internal to the company itself and some are as a result of being a relatively small and niche technology entity where the sector is changing rapidly and dominated by some extremely powerful competitors.  Many of these registered risks are probably familiar to business students through to company Directors however, a most relevant risk here it that: “We may choose to discontinue support for older versions of our products, resulting in customer dissatisfaction that could negatively affect our business and operating results.”  I wonder when the Board was signing off this Report whether they really understood the potential for this risk to bite and whether they have accurately modelled it for financial and reputational impact.  Only they know but, I imagine they have been completely blind-sided by the response.  The evidence is here: https://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.sonos.com, with 80% ‘Bad’ reviews out of 910 posted and a TrustScore of 1.3 out of 5.  This is just about as low as it’s possible to get since the lowest post is 1; secondly, that this community topic (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/end-of-software-support-clarifications-6835969) and the previously closed one (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/end-of-software-updates-for-legacy-products-6835470) are those with the biggest number of replies, by far.  Thirdly, their share price has taken a hit (down ~2%, https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activity/stocks/sono), but this will take some time to work through.  SONOS are expected to post revenue of between $1.365B and $1.4B, roughly 9.5% annual growth (https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/01/05/why-sonos-stock-climbed-128-in-december.aspx) though it will be interesting to know more when they announce their most recent financial results and host a Q&A (https://investors.sonos.com/news-and-events/investor-news/latest-news/2020/Sonos-Announces-Date-for-First-Quarter-2020-Financial-Results-and-Conference-Call/default.aspx).  Lastly, though the journalists are a bit ‘shruggy’ the rest of the web is not. A quick online search reveals all you need to know.

Sadly I think SONOS’ philosophy has been crumbling for quite a while.  Recent and not so recent updates that offer system improvements have often resulted in the opposite in my opinion.  Here are several examples:

1    Upcoming changes to ‘On this iPhone or iPad’ Playback (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/upcoming-changes-to-on-this-iphone-or-ipad-playback-6826585) is the third most replied to forum topic and describes the loss of a feature.

2    Updates to the Desktop Controller Coming Soon (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/updates-to-the-desktop-controller-coming-soon-6813300) is the fourth most replied to form topic and begins with a long-requested visual update, but most people preferred the blue version it seems.  Importantly though this ‘refresh’ removed:

  • Setting up or transferring a system
  • Adding a player to existing system
  • The ability to bond/unbond players (surrounds, stereo pairs, or adding a Sub).
  • Registering players
  • TV setup for Beam, Playbase, and Playbar,
  • Enabling parental controls
  • Network settings and management
  • Line-in settings
  • Renaming a Room
  • Opting in or out of a beta program
  • Resetting your Sonos account password (you can still do so on a computer via sonos.com)

This turned out to be an attack on many fronts.  Importantly, it requires users to have up to date tablets or phones to do the management of the system, whereas it used to be possible to manage the entirety of the system with the desktop application and allowed older devices to still be used as everyday controllers.  SONOS’ decision here is decidedly anti-ethical and a non-sustainability practise and seemingly against their Responsibility pledge for wider Product Design and Supply Chain (https://www.sonos.com/en-gb/sustainability), but SONOS have never really opened up about this.  Importantly it also prevents users, or installers maintaining systems using Remote Desktop applications, which was nuts.

3    Android Devices no longer able to join SonosNet (https://en.community.sonos.com/announcements-228985/android-devices-no-longer-able-to-join-sonosnet-6825471).  I asked SONOS help about this and their response was two-fold.  Firstly removing the feature, which was little used, apparently (though looking through support revealed a solid fan base) would free up device memory for other purposes.  Also, SONOS sort-of feared it might be related to electronic interference between the network and amplification circuitry.  These are my words but I did have a P5s replaced under warranty for issues around electronic interference, which SONOS said they could not replicate.  At the time it was a fantastic managed-AP though, well if you used Android.

The sad thing is that SONOS seemingly are very closed about their decision making any have never allowed user options.  The system is locked and updates irreversible.  Technically I don’t quite buy this since it is possible to reverse a beta upgrade, so it must be theoretically possible to wind the firmware back.  If I could, I’d probably like to revert to something around the 6.x or 7.x era and if I could fix the volume down ramp I would.

It’s not all doom and gloom as SONOS have introduced a few new features, most recently Amazon music HD though there is confusion about whether it really is HD if it’s called for by Alexa and the company are promising a fix.  Also, the loss then reinstatement of Audible, where the fix took quite a while to be sorted.  And this is the crux of issues into the future.  SONOS has been quite good about telling customers in advance when third party integrations will stop working and have a desire to maintain this, but if you have a legacy device in your system this will stop though when the third party company changes its protocols you will lose functionality and I imagine there won’t be a fix for this. 

Another driver for UK (and VPN) users could be related to the fact that the BBC is due to release a significant update for BBC SOUNDS in 2020 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/help/questions/supported-devices/connected-tv) albeit for smart TVs.  It might just be the case that this also brings the on-demand features of BBC SOUNDS to SONOS and other aggregators and streamers, but presumably not if your system is legacy.  The on-demand content of BBC Radio, music and podcasts now through SOUNDS has been a perennial request to SONOS across many request forums.  By the way if you listen to BBC Radio on your SONOS then look at this: http://steveseear.org/high-quality-bbc-radio-streams/ for advice.  While there’s less meta-data available I find these streams more reliable than from the aggregators.  I used to use minimserver (https://minimserver.com/) to handle this, but now access the BBC streams directly.

Final issues: ~7W on ‘standby’ isn’t really acceptable anymore.  It might have been fine when lightbulbs were 60-100W but we can now light a house for the electrical cost of SONOS on standby, but this isn’t a rant!

So where does this leave us all?  SONOS are definitely in a flat spin about all this, or should be.  It’s highly unusual for the CEO to apologise about the way they handled a situation, but they are seemingly staying firm.  As mentioned above if I cannot group modern and legacy then all my system will remain legacy and I’ll probably ditch SONOS, which will be a pity.  A lot will depend on the situation between now and May and also what happens to the company and its customer relations and financial (sales) situation.  At worst I may keep some small areas of SONOS but expect something else to largely take over and the system to be relegated.  I bought into “The smart home sound system.” And SONOS’ “Our DNA – The connected home.” (https://www.sonos.com/en-gb/our-company)  This has to be one system, not two and trading up with a 30% discount when prices were recently raised makes me look the fool.  What this exactly means will depend on imagined future habits and where the software and hardware platforms go, plus what happens to various streaming services.  I don’t think it’ll be BOSE, more likely Yamaha for their integrated amp setup, plus standalone speakers, or something bespoke.  There world is moving very fast!  Will see…, but I will be extremely hesitant and cautious about recommending the SONOS platform to anyone in the future.  The brand has sadly lost my trust, but I understand that everyone is free to make their own decisions. 

Anyway, I hope this post might help you be better informed so you can make your choices.

Cheers, All and well done for reading this far.  Remember, it is only stuff!

S
Userlevel 5
Badge +3

Regarding getting used equipment to fill in holes in your system….how can you tell if it has been put into recycle mode?

What happens in this process? Do users actually have to return the speaker (or whatever) to sonos to get the 30% off or could the user put it into recycle mode to get the 30 % off and then sell that item on ebay etc.

 

 

And there in lies the problem you wouldn’t know, my plan would be buying from somewhere like eBay after asking the seller to confirm it hasn’t been put into recycle mode then at least you have the protection of eBay and PayPal who are usually pretty good at refunding for issues. 

chickentender

Regarding getting used equipment to fill in holes in your system….how can you tell if it has been put into recycle mode?

What happens in this process? Do users actually have to return the speaker (or whatever) to sonos to get the 30% off or could the user put it into recycle mode to get the 30 % off and then sell that item on ebay etc.

 

 

See this: https://support.sonos.com/s/article/3573?language=en_US
I’d suggest simply requiring a seller to show you the unit connected to a controller and working. Check the speaker in room settings to confirm it’s not be recycle tagged. If a seller doesn’t want to or claims they cannot, move on.

 

Further, it’ll be apparent right away if it’s been recycled. “During the countdown and once the product has been deactivated, the product cannot be re-added to any system or used to set up a new Sonos system, even if the product has been reset to its factory settings. You could just connect to it with your controller and you’ll know immediately.

Ryan S
Userlevel 7
Badge +26

Hi everyone, good discussion so far!

We will be official sharing more information in May, and until then, while I’m happy to provide some answers, things may change. I don’t want to give you incorrect information that you use to make big decisions on, and then have something change and make that incorrect.

@Ralpfocus once devices switch over to legacy software, you’ll still be able to add new devices that currently exist. In the future, when new Sonos products start coming out, their software will not likely be compatible with legacy builds, and also, legacy software won’t know what they are to be able to add them. That said, if you want to add a new Play:5 gen1 or gen2 to your legacy system a few months later, that should be doable. When they go to update, they’ll get the right software version for the legacy system. But again, more on this will come in May.

 

The scenario  - As I have legacy products that I wish to retain in May and some modern products that I want to continue to work with the legacy products I put my system into legacy mode.

The questions are

Can I expect to be able to add any of the existing product set to a legacy environment. Irrespective of the release of software/firmware that the product is manufactured with or for that matter the date it is manufactured?

Since Sonos are committed to supporting a product for at least 5 years after end of manufacture is the legacy environment effectively good for at least 5 years after the demise of the last of the current product set?    (Subject to changes in streaming services APIs)

Even if Sonos bring out a new product for which they they cannot or will not create a legacy date software/firmware version will all other current (April 2020) products still be able to join a Legacy environment?

If in another n (lets be optimistic 10) years I find that my legacy components (which will probably have increased by then) have all reached the end of their useful life will it be simple to come out of legacy mode?

Is it realistic to have the expectation that Sonos will attempt to make changes to the legacy streaming APIs if required?

The understanding is that any new features made available over the next few years may not be available in a legacy environment.

Given that Ryan and co will be snowed in, my attempt at responses:

  1. If by existing you mean existing with you just now, or what you will buy till May - yes.
  2. No, because for such products that have been identified as legacy, 5 years have passed.
  3. Yes, as long as these are added before getting updated in some way to a post legacy version. There is some confusion around this, with some contradicting this by suggesting that the version can be rolled back to enable them to also join.
  4. Yes, but only with such products that can be brought to the level of the software then prevailing.
  5. Yes, because the word “attempt” can mean anything. I suppose they will do this as long as there is the memory for this and as long as it isn't too much of a hassle. Plus, this will go in a queue and may not get the best treatment there. Prepare to either then switch services, or resort to the Line In jacks.
  6. Instead of the words “may not” say “will not”. And there are no legitimate grounds to complain about that, IMO.

These are pretty much correct, though I’d have phrased some of the answers differently. I think my comment above will help clarify some of the answers too. 

  

I prefer the legacy devices like the ZP100/ZP120/Connect Amp for their design.and was curious if they block the ability to add those down the road.

I have not seen this to be said anywhere. Only a Connect Amp made after 2015, once it gets to a version after the legacy version, cannot be added. Of course, it should not have been bricked for recycling for a 30% claim.

So if you have a legacy system mode operating, and you want to add one of the above that are at or before that system version, the dedicated to legacy system app that is promised will allow you to add these products to the legacy system. At any time in the future.

@Ryan S / @Edward R - to please object if I am wrong.

You’ll continue to be able to add ZP100/ZP120/Connect:Amp devices on legacy software (assuming those devices haven’t been recycled through the trade up). Even the Connect:Amp that are 2015 devices will be able to add in on modern software. There may be a point in time in the future where a software build for a modern Connect:Amp can’t be added to legacy, but I can’t speak to that specifically, just saying it’s a possibility at some point. 

Split system warning!

I wrote this on another thread just now and am copying that here, because the warning is very relevant here as well:

Split systems sound good in theory, but will rapidly become very tiresome to operate. I don't see anyone use these for long. The problem is that then the only option will be to go to one system with modern products, and dump the legacy products. Because the modern products won't make it back to any unified system that has legacy products in it.

One therefore needs to be very careful in opting for splits. I anticipate that many won’t, discover this truth too late, and then there will be another firestorm like this one.

PS:In that thread I was advised that I may be jumping the gun; before being given that advice, I had already flagged my response to @Ryan S  for confirmation in the thread where I posted the above. If he disagrees with any of the above - I will post my eating of the above words on this thread.

I may be misreading you, but if you decide to split your system, and after a little while have a change of heart, you will still be able to move the modern devices down to the legacy build. This may not always be an option, but I don’t have enough certainty on all of those details and what might change, so we’ll go with “more to come in May.” My personal recommendation (depending on what your legacy to modern device ratio looks like) would be to move everything (including modern devices) to the legacy build for a while. Your system will continue to function as it has and if at some point in the future something stops working, or there’s a new feature that you really want to enjoy, you can look at your options then. Trade Up isn’t going anywhere, it’s an ongoing offer currently with no end date. 

 

And @User933635, we do read every single comment posted on the community and share with the right teams. Thanks for taking the time to prepare such as statement. 

Mark good posts by pressing the like button, and select the best answer on questions you've asked to help others find solutions.
C
Userlevel 4
Badge +2


We can only try. Based on the track record of SONOS, it probably won’t happen, but they have painted themselves in a bit of a corner, so it can’t hurt to bring the topic to attention again.

I won’t be doing any big bang thing here but I know that the clock is now ticking on my current $7000 multi zone audio delivery system.  It would be prudent to plan and budget for a rebuild in then next 3-5 years. The NEXT GENERATION SONOS will be assessed, but I think I will be running more speaker wire this time. I can’t afford to replace my entire system every 5-7years.

I only bought the amps and added MonitorAudio speakers. Anyway, down the road the best way is to buy items with open standards and modular devices. Anything which relies on build computing power is going to run into the same problems earlier or later. They should have 2 separate product lines all together, one designed for multi room audio and one for cheaper internet connected speakers. Google and Amazon speakers take their abilities from their cloud services and include home automation that’s an area you can’t compete with. Even Microsoft’s Cortana couldn’t do it. I think anybody with a true multi room configuration wouldn’t mind to be required to run a service on a NAS / PC / Mac / Pi or a SONOS own dedicated device to provide all the local computing power. Then you have to replace or upgrade just one device in your whole system. If they set an expiration date on their products then the buying consideration is changing and more competition pops up  and it ends up with a race to the bottom. Amazon/Google can sell their items at cost because they make their money in other areas.

C
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

Does anyone know if Roon could be used as a server to send simultaneously to  the legacy and modern networks? I asked this on the main thread but it got lost in the widespread venting. The Roon support site seems to think it can,

 

If the provide something like a Radio Station stream locally I wouldn't see any reason why it shouldn’t.

They support the old Squeezebox Devices. They have a 14 Day trial 

C
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

I just personally see things differently ...and to standstill too long now would mean to stifle any technological innovation… we would still be using vhs video tapes if we all adopted a legacy system. I’m sorry, but you can keep your vinyl and audio cassette tapes.. I’m well past those things. At least let those that want to, race ahead. Thinking about it, Sonos is providing us here with the opportunity to standstill or innovate. So it’s perhaps the best announcement we ALL could have wished for anyway.🤔 

Like the great innovation of 3D TV !  How many are they selling these day of this type ? 

Ken_Griffiths

I just personally see things differently ...and to standstill too long now would mean to stifle any technological innovation… we would still be using vhs video tapes if we all adopted a legacy system. I’m sorry, but you can keep your vinyl and audio cassette tapes.. I’m well past those things. At least let those that want to, race ahead. Thinking about it, Sonos is providing us here with the opportunity to standstill or innovate. So it’s perhaps the best announcement we ALL could have wished for anyway.🤔 

Like the great innovation of 3D TV !  How many are they selling these day of this type ? 

...ha ha that made me LOL,👍 At least I have a sense of humour too, which is more than I can say for a few others around here. Thanks for the smile and I’m pleased to say I didn’t buy a 3D TV.. I bought two Play 5’s instead and definitely no regrets there. 👍

R
Userlevel 5
Badge +11

@Ryan S thank you for the response, not entirely happy but then who is right now.

I will make the observation that an awful lot is waiting on statements coming in May. This lack of clarity is continuing to make  the situation worse 

 

C

I wrote a polite reply, but then lost it because this Sonos board software sucks. Now I’ll be frank.

I spent money and time on your stupid devices. What I got was a reminder that the days are gone of purchasing any tech system and being able to just use it. I mean, not be plagued with forced updates, scoundrel spying, etc. If only your advertisements included the truth: “when the mood is on, just reach for the controller, and.. oh, update your system now or suck eggs!” Moment gone, erection lost. Every goddamned time I went to use the ZP100 I was met with this, and had to dig out my Sonos username and password.

I get it that internet streaming services can change protocol parameters, new services become available, or Sonos decides to collect user data, but the forced update is an insult. And who among us is OK with a vendor recording data on us? Gee, haven’t played any music in 36hours--must be traveling… ripe for a burglary?

So what is going to happen now? Will they issue firmware that stops dialing their mothership, so I can finally use this box in peace, to play music from my local NAS, phones, and aux inputs? Or will I get constant nags about being out of support, and “buy our new equipment that has microphones and cameras so that we can sell data on your behavior habits to our ‘partners’!?” Will I have to configure my routers to deny all outgoing traffic from the ZP100? Will that break it, so it says “configuration error, call Sonos”?

K

@Ryan S I don't think I am alone in commending both @Edward R and you for your significant contributions towards what might be considered to be an anti Sonos thread. If Sonos leadership had the same care and respect for the installed base, this thread would not have been necessary, and the firestorm a lot less in intensity. Kudos, and thank you.

And congratulations to every one here for keeping the thread on topic, and both rant and profanity free. No minor achievement, that. There is nothing we can do stop it from becoming long, then repetitive and thus unwieldy. I can’t see any way around that, but what can be done, is being done.

2000Z3M
Userlevel 3

Those who are planning to freeze their mixed Legacy / Modern Sonos systems might want to take a look at Roon:  https://roonlabs.com

I tried it for a year when they were in the early stages of implementing Sonos hardware integration; while Roon is an amazing personal music library tool, at the time, the Sonos interface still needed work, it’s also not free @ $119 per year.  

After the recent Sonos “Your System Requires Attention” fiasco, I started looking at how to best move forward and revisited Roon. 

I setup a Roon “Core” server installation on my OpenMediaVault NAS this afternoon; it was easy to enable all of my Sonos zones and I was up and running very quickly.  Unless Sonos dramatically changes course, I have decided that any Sonos hardware failures will be replaced with “not Sonos”; Roon can accommodate a mix of hardware.

Roon is now my music and zone controller.  Sonos updates have been turned off at the app layer as well as blocked at my router.  Port 4444 on all Sonos devices is locked down; and electrons no longer travel between my network and update.sonos.com, msmetrics.ws.sonos.com, and ms-metrics-test.ws.sonos.com.  So far so good.

R
Badge

This is not a rant.  

Sonos has severely compromised their integrity.  Hopefully this forum, Commumity Feedback, provides actionable input for SONOS to fairly compensate misinformed purchasers that their Sonos systems could at "anytime" be added on.  

Sonos, Keep up the good work and tell us how SONOS is going to live uo to its GEN 1 sales literature statements.  I have some tehnical suggestions, but will refrain, because SONOS engineers are best qualified to fix their legacy problem by May or shortly thereafter. 

 

K

Moving on:

@Ryan S You said - once devices switch over to legacy software, you’ll still be able to add new devices that currently exist.

By currently you mean new as exist in the present moment, and not currently at the time of adding any such in the future? By that I mean those that may be introduced after May.

@User933635 Nice post - and this made my day - they’ll all be lying down in darkened rooms - because even I have just come out after a needed spell in one.

You said:  if I cannot group modern and legacy then all my system will remain legacy and I’ll probably ditch SONOS, which will be a pity

You ought to need to ditch only if you need the new functionality that Sonos will release after the legacy version is forked.

You said: Remember, it is only stuff! - We need to keep remembering that. And neither is it stuff like the Boeing 737 that has killed people.

@andy_120 When I said that the Sonos controller is a must, I was referring to the app, not any physical controller.

@edamame You said: Regarding getting used equipment to fill in holes in your system….how can you tell if it has been put into recycle mode?

The used market has been destroyed by Sonos in even more ways. I know of sellers that are reluctant to sell for fear of being accused of having sold recycled devices. Some one could buy one from you, get the 30% after marking it for recycling, and then come back to you and claim you sold them a lemon? Lesson here is to now be very careful in that market. Unfortunate, but there it is.

K

@Kumar

Sorry, I made a slip with the words which make a huge difference.  I meant to say System not Network. Huge difference. Apologies.


They have proven in the past that CR100 / CR200 can happily exist in the system running on older firmware. 

No apology needed, all of us have our heads in a spin that can unwittingly affect what is typed. Been there, done that.

To the second part, there is someone posting on this thread that has stayed on the older version to keep the 100 alive. Another has not needed to do so, and is still able to use the 200.

I have neither, but there seems to be an anomaly here somewhere.

K

If I may now be permitted to introduce myself to make clear my motivation for this thread and to establish that I have no agenda for it other than what is in the topic title, as elaborated in the first post…

I cured myself of a severe obsession with expensive HiFi kit where the music itself had moved into the background, and since 2011, Sonos has been brilliant in enabling that as well as helping me stay cured.

As my post count shows, I was one of the Sonos evangelists and I have also been on the receiving end of the fanboy allegations here often enough.

 All that said, the recent post above by @User933635 has captured in one place a series of things that Sonos has done in the past that has come to start feeling to many like death by a thousand cuts. So the outbreak we see now is also on account of all the accumulated frustration, something like the last straw, except that this isn't as light as that proverbial straw.

I only suffered the loss of the brilliant Sonos Dock; that pissed me off enough to withdraw from here, and lock out updates till I found an efficient work around to it. The ability it delivered to make my play 1 truly portable, needing only mains power to both units to work even where there was no WiFi, is still missed, but I have satisfied my on the road needs with capable BT speakers so that is still nowhere near the kind of dislocation many have suffered in the last couple of years.

And by the way, I still have the Dock - I can't bring myself to just toss such a neat little product into the trash can. Even when for all practical purposes it is dead - I was advised to use it as an iPod charger! If that was tongue in cheek, I did not see the humour at the time.

There is no way I can therefore see myself trashing two Connect Amps, a Connect and two Bridges that are, unlike the Dock, still working like new.

Hence, the change of direction, and this thread.

E
Userlevel 2
Badge

@edamame You said: Regarding getting used equipment to fill in holes in your system….how can you tell if it has been put into recycle mode?

The used market has been destroyed by Sonos in even more ways. I know of sellers that are reluctant to sell for fear of being accused of having sold recycled devices. Some one could buy one from you, get the 30% after marking it for recycling, and then come back to you and claim you sold them a lemon? Lesson here is to now be very careful in that market. Unfortunate, but there it is.

 

TY all for recommendations. I have decided to stick to what I have and not update, Keeping it simple.

This is too bad that this happened. I was planning on moving to France and building a B&B or gite biz with sonos everywhere. Guests could turn on/off the speaker when they wanted to.

I guess I will just be a lurker so I can learn.

/lurking mode = 1

 

chickentender

Things are looking up.

As mentioned previously, I ordered the Bluesound Node 2i and early this afternoon it arrived. To be perfectly honest, after setting up and adjusting and reconfiguring (though very little of it was to the Sonos side of things) I am, to put it bluntly, ridiculously happy with the way it is all shaping up. I”d for some time (quite some time… years) hoped to see a Connect upgrade, but when it came in the form of the current Port it was clear to me that was not what I was looking for. The Node 2i is everything I wanted it to be, with the exception of not being produced by Sonos (but that’s nearly a non-factor at this point).
For the past many years my modest setup is like this (before today) - I utilize the Connect as a soundbar replacement of sorts and route (for several television sets now, an analogue output has been a requirement for this) the TV’s analog/variable audio via 3.5mm stereo-mini to dual RCA analog input of the Connect. The Connect’s analog output runs to the AUX input of my old 70s Marantz 2235b receiver which in turn powers a pair of speakers (for the past 6 or so years, two Wharfedale Diamond 10.2 speakesr). The rest of my Sonos simply includes 3 additional speakers (two Play:1 units, and one original SOSOS ONE unit) at various locations around the house, one of which I frequent move to wherever it’s needed (currently in a stereo-pair with other Play:1 in my office).
Nearly everything I listen to travels via the Connect, and roughly 80% of the time my TV audio is ran this way (the other 20% simply via the TV’s internal speakers on some occasions), making it easy to put a ballgame on throughout the house, as well as listening sessions via the Sonos controller for music streaming services and streaming from my personal library housed on my NAS using SMB. It’s been possible to listen to my personal audio library via PLEX, which we use extensively for our ripped movies, but the sound quality from the services natively on the Connect was always better than when piped via the variable analog to the Sonos line-in. I’d long wished for higher sound quality possible, as well as further connection options for the Connect since it’s quite literally been the hub of everything. Well it’s role was just replaced.
The Node 2i is now in the position the connect occupied. Immediate benefits: it has analog input 3.5mm stereo as well as shared optical input (something Connect lacks, as well as Port surprisingly) with 3.5mm TOSLINK adapter, so I can now feed fixed line-level digital optical from the LG TV to it. It also supports IR learning so I can easily control volume functions of the Node 2i with the TV remote (another thing I’d always wanted from Connect). I’ve the analog stereo output from the Node connected to the Marantz receiver AUX input, just as the connect used to do. The quality of the DAC on the NODE is spectacular in comparison to the Connect and the difference was noticeable immediately (and I’ve yet to even play any MQA or 192/24 hi-res audio - just CD quality audio itself is far better better), with far more detail, separation etc. It’s palpable. Naturally the audio from TV is worlds better as well. The sound that the Node 2i can supply is worlds above the Connect, plain and simple, on all fronts. This also allows me to play streaming and local media via PLEX without the past drop in quality as compared to the native playback from the Node (BlueOS) itself. It’s just as good and in many ways a lot more convenient (we love our PLEX server).
I then took a spare optical/digital-to-analog converter I had lying around (this is where I do wish the Node has dual analog outputs fro simplicity but this is fine) and sent to it the optical output from the Node, which is then converted and then sent via RCA to the Sonos Connect’s LINE-IN. The RCA output from the Connect is finally sent to the good old Tape/2 monitor channel on the Marantz receiver.
So….. now all I need to do in order to have whole-house is to group how I want within Sonos controller and press play on the line-in, and switch the Marantz over two Tape-2 (this is in order to eliminate the slight sync differentiation between the Node and the Connect - it all needs to be routed via the Connect for whole-house syncing) and I’ve got music throughout the house again. There is a that same quality reduction present when listening via the downstream Connect from the Marantz as compared to directly from the Node, but if I have it playing throughout the house we’re usually doing some other activity, e.g. I’m not really just sitting and listening to the music closely. And when I do want to listen closely, I just go back to AUX for the Node’s direct signal.
This has gotten long but just wanted to share this use case. Sonos will still be used to some extent for playback in the other rooms individually for the time being, but proof-of-concept for using the Sonos network as merely a speaker network is a go in my house.
I’ll not even get into the many details I’m enjoying about the BlueOS interface, especially having so much control back at the desktop app version once again! Overall it’s been a damn good audio Sunday around here - and I’ve oddly the end-of-support announcement from Sonos to thank. :)
 

K

@chickentender : good for you. Your set up is one of those that is very hard to understand in the above form and very simple to figure out when seen in the real world. To allow everyone to substitute for the not possible latter, why don’t you draw and post a simple hand drawn sketch that shows the set up with arrows indicating the path and direction of how the signal moves?

chickentender

@chickentender : good for you. Your set up is one of those that is very hard to understand in the above form and very simple to figure out when seen in the real world. To allow everyone to substitute for the not possible latter, why don’t you draw and post a simple hand drawn sketch that shows the set up with arrows indicating the path and direction of how the signal moves?

Happy to. I’m certainly not a CAD user, so wiring diagrams are well outside my wheelhouse, but a janky little sketch is right up my alley. :grinning:
It does sound a bit complicated but it really isn’t. Many might ask “why don’t you use a soundbar” for a setup like this and my answer is that I’ve never wanted to. I route everything into the Marantz and my two main speakers entirely. Soundbars and surround systems have never interested me. I’d much rather have quality simplicity at this point, and that’s what this achieve for me personally.
(I listen to a large amount of vinyl still as well which is just direct from the turntable to the receiver/speakers - I’ve never bothered making that whole-house because if I’m listening to records, I’m not wandering around the house.)

Terms & ConditionsCookie settings