The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

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M
Userlevel 4
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It would continue to be used by you the way you are using it today! So what stops you from running an easy test today?

 

If I left the sonos environment I would just disconnect the sonos connect and take the line out from an echo dot directly to My receiver.  The only function of the connect in my environment is to allow me to use the sonos infrastructure with my vintage audio system.  I agree I could test if it would work without wifi but I just can't see anything gained by using a connect if you were not using sonos anymore.  The connect amp and play 5s however could continue to provide amplification and/Or amp speaker functionality in another infrastructure providing line in functions without a sonos controller of some kind.

K

@Smilja I know; and I don't have such a device and will never be able to get one.

Are you saying then the recycling deletes the firmware? Because there may be a possibility that merely defunct as opposed to deleted firmware may still allow Line IN to work. A hypothesis that needs a test to prove. 

Smilja

@Smilja : let’s assume for discussion that the Line In is architected to not need the operating environment - an assumption based on how my Connect Amp Line In works with just mains power, no WiFi, and a signal sensed at the jacks. It even boots up in that environment. I can only make assumptions since I have no access to a bricked for recycling product.

If it did work based on the above, what next? 

 

Your Connect:AMP is still driven by the firmware installed on the unit. The test requires a device with defunct firmware.

»And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space, Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.« (›Windmills Of Your Mind‹ [1967]. Music by Michel Legrand ; English lyrics written by Alan & Marilyn Bergman)
K

@Smilja : let’s assume for discussion that the Line In is architected to not need the operating environment - an assumption based on how my Connect Amp Line In works with just mains power, no WiFi, and a signal sensed at the jacks. It even boots up in that environment. I can only make assumptions since I have no access to a bricked for recycling product.

If it did work based on the above, what next? 

K

I guess I could test the modern connect as there is a line in but I doubt anyone would continue to use these if they were going entirely away from sonos as their are no amp or speakers so why would it continue to be used. 

 

And I am also interested in this thread from a perspective of how can a customer protect their own interests and investments when a tech company decides to change direction.

It would continue to be used by you the way you are using it today! So what stops you from running an easy test today?

And, to the second bit quoted, the best way of learning is by doing - which you can if you choose to.

M
Userlevel 4
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 could you hook up a pair of passive speakers to the connect amp, remove sonos software from your system and then hook up an echo dot to the line in and still have a decent quality non sonos stereo.  My guess would be no, but even something like that might help those with legacy connect amps not feel like their amps are garbage.  I don't own a connect amp but I wonder if this could be tested by just turning off WiFi to the house for a few minutes and then plugging a phone or CD player into the line in port.  Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

@MikeOinToronto : I don't remove Sonos software from it of course, but as I have reported on more than one thread here as well as many times on this one, I run a Connect Amp, with its WiFi disabled, with Sonos net turned off, all the time via Echo Show into Line In jacks when I don't want to waste electricity keeping my 6 zone system powered up.

By the way, you don't have a 5, you don't have a Connect Amp - what legacy product DO you have?!

Because this can be tested on Connect as well!

Hi Kumar.  

Sorry I must have missed the WiFi turned off part on your setup.  Have read way too many posts over the last week and a half and my brain is fried from this.

 I actually do not have any legacy products.  I have a modern sonos connect and two play ones, as well as five echo dots and one echo.  I guess I could test the modern connect as there is a line in but I doubt anyone would continue to use these if they were going entirely away from sonos as their are no amp or speakers so why would it continue to be used.  So in my case I will just leave it as is receiving updates and as a modern system. 

My more personal concern will be the next round when undoubtedly the play ones will be the next to go.  And I am also interested in this thread from a perspective of how can a customer protect their own interests and investments when a tech company decides to change direction.

K

Has anybody already tried to use the line-in on a device that has been deployed into recycle mode? I’d say the line-in is tied to the operating environment for the device and will no longer work.

Good question; answer awaited:-).

K

Being told to act honestly with Sonos at a time when Sonos has been shown to be dishonest more than once takes the cake. Ah well; it takes all sorts.

Moving on...

K

 could you hook up a pair of passive speakers to the connect amp, remove sonos software from your system and then hook up an echo dot to the line in and still have a decent quality non sonos stereo.  My guess would be no, but even something like that might help those with legacy connect amps not feel like their amps are garbage.  I don't own a connect amp but I wonder if this could be tested by just turning off WiFi to the house for a few minutes and then plugging a phone or CD player into the line in port.  Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

@MikeOinToronto : I don't remove Sonos software from it of course, but as I have reported on more than one thread here as well as many times on this one, I run a Connect Amp, with its WiFi disabled, with Sonos net turned off, all the time via Echo Show into Line In jacks when I don't want to waste electricity keeping my 6 zone system powered up.

By the way, you don't have a 5, you don't have a Connect Amp - what legacy product DO you have?!

Because this can be tested on Connect as well!

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

I don’t have any bricked units, but I’ve been running Sonos kit locked off for a while now, purely for local streaming. I’ve also left the system locked from updates off whilst allowing internet streaming, and that works OK.

Yesterday I was streaming music from my NAS to a Play 5 using a Chromecast Audio into the line-in - works fine. However, since Sonos enforced the log-in side of things, it seems to me (I could be wrong) that they are now holding more settings at account level, rather than locally. For example, there’s a setting on the devices for max volume, which I would have just held locally. However, AFAICS the device now has to be able to access the internet for this to work, otherwise it doesn’t ‘stick’. Consequently, I’ve set it back to the usual 100% - just in case. I have no intention of keep opening my system up just to make a minor change.

It would be interesting to know how a bricked unit would work, though...

I hadn't even thought about settings held at the account level and of having to be logged into my account.  Interesting. 

 

I don't want to sound too jaded against one company but it does seem to be an issue to consider when purchasing any smart tech.  If I buy a smart fridge and that company no longer supports the model (Or goes out of business) does my whole refrigerator no longer work or does just the smart features not work.

As Kumar mentioned earlier, I think that this applies to all smart tech, so I share your concerns… I’ll stick with my old reliable non-internet connected fridge for now, I think :wink:

Me too.  My fridge and stove both date back to the 1970s and work great.  My parents are on their third fridge since they moved into a retirement community 19 years ago.  Always seems to be the "computer board" (whatever that means) that gives out in their case.

A

Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

I don’t have any bricked units, but I’ve been running Sonos kit locked off for a while now, purely for local streaming. I’ve also left the system locked from updates off whilst allowing internet streaming, and that works OK.

Yesterday I was streaming music from my NAS to a Play 5 using a Chromecast Audio into the line-in - works fine. However, since Sonos enforced the log-in side of things, it seems to me (I could be wrong) that they are now holding more settings at account level, rather than locally. For example, there’s a setting on the devices for max volume, which I would have just held locally. However, AFAICS the device now has to be able to access the internet for this to work, otherwise it doesn’t ‘stick’. Consequently, I’ve set it back to the usual 100% - just in case. I have no intention of keep opening my system up just to make a minor change.

It would be interesting to know how a bricked unit would work, though...

I hadn't even thought about settings held at the account level and of having to be logged into my account.  Interesting. 

 

I don't want to sound too jaded against one company but it does seem to be an issue to consider when purchasing any smart tech.  If I buy a smart fridge and that company no longer supports the model (Or goes out of business) does my whole refrigerator no longer work or does just the smart features not work.

As Kumar mentioned earlier, I think that this applies to all smart tech, so I share your concerns… I’ll stick with my old reliable non-internet connected fridge for now, I think :wink:

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

I don’t have any bricked units, but I’ve been running Sonos kit locked off for a while now, purely for local streaming. I’ve also left the system locked from updates off whilst allowing internet streaming, and that works OK.

Yesterday I was streaming music from my NAS to a Play 5 using a Chromecast Audio into the line-in - works fine. However, since Sonos enforced the log-in side of things, it seems to me (I could be wrong) that they are now holding more settings at account level, rather than locally. For example, there’s a setting on the devices for max volume, which I would have just held locally. However, AFAICS the device now has to be able to access the internet for this to work, otherwise it doesn’t ‘stick’. Consequently, I’ve set it back to the usual 100% - just in case. I have no intention of keep opening my system up just to make a minor change.

It would be interesting to know how a bricked unit would work, though...

I hadn't even thought about settings held at the account level and of having to be logged into my account.  Interesting. 

 

I don't want to sound too jaded against one company but it does seem to be an issue to consider when purchasing any smart tech.  If I buy a smart fridge and that company no longer supports the model (Or goes out of business) does my whole refrigerator no longer work or does just the smart features not work.

Smilja

Has anybody already tried to use the line-in on a device that has been deployed into recycle mode? I’d say the line-in is tied to the operating environment for the device and will no longer work.

»And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space, Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.« (›Windmills Of Your Mind‹ [1967]. Music by Michel Legrand ; English lyrics written by Alan & Marilyn Bergman)
A

Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

I don’t have any bricked units, but I’ve been running Sonos kit locked off for a while now, purely for local streaming. I’ve also left the system locked from updates off whilst allowing internet streaming, and that works OK.

Yesterday I was streaming music from my NAS to a Play 5 using a Chromecast Audio into the line-in - works fine. However, since Sonos enforced the log-in side of things, it seems to me (I could be wrong) that they are now holding more settings at account level, rather than locally. For example, there’s a setting on the devices for max volume, which I would have just held locally. However, AFAICS the device now has to be able to access the internet for this to work, otherwise it doesn’t ‘stick’. Consequently, I’ve set it back to the usual 100% - just in case. I have no intention of keep opening my system up just to make a minor change.

It would be interesting to know how a bricked unit would work, though...

Ken_Griffiths

@Ken_Griffiths :

I honestly don't give a damn about going against this “responsible recycle” stunt by Sonos which I believe to be hot air and sales promotion - full stop. There are reports in connection with the Trade Up scheme from landfill operators in the UK that were honest enough to say that all such “recycling” just ends up as bigger landfills and not as something that is actually recycled back into a new product. Doing that for plastic bags and tin cans is one thing; doing that for a Connect Amp is a completely different kettle of fish, and expensive to boot.

So, I am not hinting at anything, I am saying it in no uncertain terms. And people breaking any such agreement with Sonos are doing the planet a favour it now needs. Every drop in it helps make the ocean.

Will Sonos risk further PR disasters by even trying to proceed against someone that succeeds in using a Sonos bricked unit - even I can't see them being that stupid now.

But: there is also nothing that stops people from taking your advice either. Just saying…

All the above said, this use is not the real thing of interest to this thread, so pardon this rant, because this Sonos action has changed me overnight from evangelist to... even anti Sonos, you might say.

What is of real interest to this thread isn’t your advice or mine in connection with bricked recycled products, but what a successful test will show:  that legacy unrecycled units working in dumb mode can survive even a complete Sonos meltdown, even where their servers go offline. Will some then use this knowledge to get a 30% discount from Sonos while retaining the products or selling or gifting them? Perhaps, and if they do, it can be seen as payback for what Sonos has done to them. Again, it will be fun to see Sonos take legal action against these people. Would I do it - since the Trade up scheme is not available where I stay, this is a hypothetical question that I will not answer. 

Do I wish the meltdown fate on Sonos - No. Do I want to know how to keep my investment in Sonos viable if that happens - you bet. And it is those questions that are of interest, which you have left out while selectively capturing what I have said in your quote.

I see you are now emphasising that users should try to use their traded-up deactivated legacy products. 

Isn’t that actively 'inciting’ other users to perhaps 'lie' to Sonos in the trade-up agreement process and to take the 30% discount voucher on offer, which may subsequently result in transactions of many hundreds of dollars/pounds/euros per user worldwide etc. and then not go through with the agreement of ‘responsibly recycling’ their deactivated product, but to continue to use their device… isn’t that inciting others to commit fraud?

You also appear to try to justify your comments by stating that U.K. recyclers have admitted to taking such things to landfill… even if that were true, it does not justify you encouraging others here to try to defraud Sonos via the trade-up scheme, if anything you should have perhaps opted to inform others to not use the scheme in the first place, rather than attempt to take the discount and then still use their devices.

I personally think those posts of encouragement to act 'dishonestly' should be removed from the community.

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

The obvious question to anyone here that has a bricked 5: what happens if you plug a phone playing music into the line in jack of a 5? Does it even boot up if power is applied?

These are actually very important questions for thread followers, that someone here ought to be able to answer in five minutes - anyone that opted for Trade Up and has a bricked unit lying around. What happens if power is applied to the unit? If it boots up, as my offline units do, are the Line in jacks then still active as they are in my case? Perhaps this will work for bricked units only If Autoplay option for the Line In was on at the time of bricking...

The answers are important because if such a unit works as a dumb device, that is solid reassurance for the rest of us here that there is nothing that Sonos can do to brick our Connect/Connect Amp/5 by any act of commission. Acts of omission like not providing updates is their hands, but if acts of commission that prevent the units from working as dumb products when supplied a signal by Line In are not doable, then it does not matter to these units if Sonos even were to go bankrupt and their servers were to go offline. 

Selecting Line In Autoplay ON for all legacy units via the controller today, and leaving it ON forever, may then be a very good precaution to take. It can't hurt, but may end up being a hardware life saver.  

I would also be curious to understand how the line in feature works just without network connectivy.  While I don't believe sonos would forcibly brick a unit against a customers will, I do wonder if a connect amp could be run as a dumb amp without being part of the sonos network.  Not that it would be my choice but if things got to a really negative point with sonos, could you hook up a pair of passive speakers to the connect amp, remove sonos software from your system and then hook up an echo dot to the line in and still have a decent quality non sonos stereo.  My guess would be no, but even something like that might help those with legacy connect amps not feel like their amps are garbage.  I don't own a connect amp but I wonder if this could be tested by just turning off WiFi to the house for a few minutes and then plugging a phone or CD player into the line in port.  Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

 

I don't even expect it to be free, just low cost.  If a 200 dollar box would keep legacy products viable I would be good with that.  I don't see it as a dongle but more along the lines of a box that does the processing for legacy devices, essentially turning them into dumb speakers that just play the music stream.

I don’t see why the legacy speakers have to be dumb… They’ve been streaming in sync and working fine for over a decade, so there’s no reason why they can’t handle most things - just not the new facilities. If all the non essential stuff was stripped out of the legacy build, they have even more space available.

By dumb I was thinking more along the lines as in if the speaker can't do the required task like syncing with a stream involving modern gear, the box handles the smart part and the speaker just receives the stream.  I agree you wouldn't want the legacy systems to lose any of their current functionality.  I guess dumb speakers is not the appropriate term for this.

K

Further to the above, a Sonos with a long term vision for a better future for its customers, the environment and consequently itself may even change the 30% scheme to legitimise what I have said people may do with legacy products.

Yes, that will get under the skin of those that sent their products to a landfill for the 30%, but that can be considered a trivial issue if the principle of sunk costs is understood and applied by them to this situation. 

K

@Ken_Griffiths :

I honestly don't give a damn about going against this “responsible recycle” stunt by Sonos which I believe to be hot air and sales promotion - full stop. There are reports in connection with the Trade Up scheme from landfill operators in the UK that were honest enough to say that all such “recycling” just ends up as bigger landfills and not as something that is actually recycled back into a new product. Doing that for plastic bags and tin cans is one thing; doing that for a Connect Amp is a completely different kettle of fish, and expensive to boot.

So, I am not hinting at anything, I am saying it in no uncertain terms. And people breaking any such agreement with Sonos are doing the planet a favour it now needs. Every drop in it helps make the ocean.

Will Sonos risk further PR disasters by even trying to proceed against someone that succeeds in using a Sonos bricked unit - even I can't see them being that stupid now.

But: there is also nothing that stops people from taking your advice either. Just saying…

All the above said, this use is not the real thing of interest to this thread, so pardon this rant, because this Sonos action has changed me overnight from evangelist to... even anti Sonos, you might say.

What is of real interest to this thread isn’t your advice or mine in connection with bricked recycled products, but what a successful test will show:  that legacy unrecycled units working in dumb mode can survive even a complete Sonos meltdown, even where their servers go offline. Will some then use this knowledge to get a 30% discount from Sonos while retaining the products or selling or gifting them? Perhaps, and if they do, it can be seen as payback for what Sonos has done to them. Again, it will be fun to see Sonos take legal action against these people. Would I do it - since the Trade up scheme is not available where I stay, this is a hypothetical question that I will not answer. 

Do I wish the meltdown fate on Sonos - No. Do I want to know how to keep my investment in Sonos viable if that happens - you bet. And it is those questions that are of interest, which you have left out while selectively capturing what I have said in your quote.

Ken_Griffiths

The obvious question to anyone here that has a bricked 5: what happens if you plug a phone playing music into the line in jack of a 5? Does it even boot up if power is applied?

These are actually very important questions for thread followers, that someone here ought to be able to answer in five minutes - anyone that opted for Trade Up and has a bricked unit lying around. What happens if power is applied to the unit? If it boots up, as my offline units do, are the Line in jacks then still active as they are in my case? Perhaps this will work for bricked units only If Autoplay option for the Line In was on at the time of bricking...

I have some slight concern with some of the things 'hinted' at here…

I thought the Sonos trade-up “agreement” was part of a firm undertaking to also responsibly recycle the Sonos product as part of receiving the 30% discount voucher. In fact Sonos also offer the customer a shipping label to return the goods for recycling, if there are no recycling options open to the customer in their local area. 

Would the action your proposing here Kumar risk users 'perhaps' breaking that agreement and cause them the (slight) possibility of losing their discount, or perhaps being asked to pay it back, if they continue to use their device via the line-in?… I’m not sure that it’s wise to propose such a course of action, as that surely leaves people in a slightly precarious position, and do you really want to advise people around the globe to try to keep their devices running after entering their devices into the trade-up process? At least that’s how I am reading the suggestion here and others appear to be hinting at it too.

It’s absolutely fine though, if the user chooses not to trade-up for the discount on offer. I think that should be made clear.

Just saying ..🤔

K

If all the non essential stuff was stripped out of the legacy build, they have even more space available.

That brings forth a thought that is close to a rant...Sonos ought to have foreseen that memory constraints would lead to a day when they will have to break their promise of having sold a multi room audio system, even while much hardware was still working. And via self discipline, they should have quarantined such memory as would be needed to keep 32mb units still able to be on the same system as 1024 mb units, albeit with lower functionality at the 32mb unit level. That would have meant that today we would have less of the fluff and eye candy, but not this break in service.

Is this too high an expectation of foresight driven self discipline? Events have answered that question, I suppose.

A

 

I don't even expect it to be free, just low cost.  If a 200 dollar box would keep legacy products viable I would be good with that.  I don't see it as a dongle but more along the lines of a box that does the processing for legacy devices, essentially turning them into dumb speakers that just play the music stream.

I don’t see why the legacy speakers have to be dumb… They’ve been streaming in sync and working fine for over a decade, so there’s no reason why they can’t handle most things - just not the new facilities. If all the non essential stuff was stripped out of the legacy build, they have even more space available.

K

Shades here of movies or shows like The Orville, where Isaac the robot suddenly drops to the floor by a central server released kill command - if I remember right, he then plots a way out by pretending to be the bad robot when unbricked, and then finds a way to go offline while still remaining functional, so the central server cannot reach him any more...he does this because he is on the side of the good guys:-)). And gals!

K

The obvious question to anyone here that has a bricked 5: what happens if you plug a phone playing music into the line in jack of a 5? Does it even boot up if power is applied?

These are actually very important questions for thread followers, that someone here ought to be able to answer in five minutes - anyone that opted for Trade Up and has a bricked unit lying around. What happens if power is applied to the unit? If it boots up, as my offline units do, are the Line in jacks then still active as they are in my case? Perhaps this will work for bricked units only If Autoplay option for the Line In was on at the time of bricking...

The answers are important because if such a unit works as a dumb device, that is solid reassurance for the rest of us here that there is nothing that Sonos can do to brick our Connect/Connect Amp/5 by any act of commission. Acts of omission like not providing updates is their hands, but if acts of commission that prevent the units from working as dumb products when supplied a signal by Line In are not doable, then it does not matter to these units if Sonos even were to go bankrupt and their servers were to go offline. 

Selecting Line In Autoplay ON for all legacy units via the controller today, and leaving it ON forever, may then be a very good precaution to take. It can't hurt, but may end up being a hardware life saver.  

K

More musings:

After over fifteen years of having worked for a couple of big US corporations, the landscape they play in is very familiar, and based on that there is something strange about Sonos, now a listed corporation. Every US corporation I have across has a Chairman of the Board of Directors and a CEO. Very often, and this is a source of controversy in the US, and a practice almost never followed in the EU, the same person assumes both offices; the controversy is because the Chairman is supposed to counter balance the CEO and if both offices are in one person, that is the end of the counter balance - and the entire board in such cases tends to become the plaything of the all powerful Chairman and CEO.

What is strange about Sonos, is that it has a Board of Directors, it has a CEO - Spence - who is on the Board, but there is no one named as Chairman of the Board! Search as I might, I haven't found one.

If there was a Chairman that took his job as seriously as these worthies often do, I would not be surprised if he had by now muzzled Spence so that the latter does not keep putting his foot in his mouth and destroy shareholder value even further. Or, if the situation does not look to getting back on track, he would even fire Spence; the only loyalty of a good Chairman is to shareholders, and they can be quite ruthless. 

But, there is no Chairman - also, Spence isn't designated Chairman and CEO.

Any one that finds who this missing Chairman is, kindly point him or her out via a link.

See this link that mystifies me; note that Chairmen and CEO kind of egos won’t hide that fact, and their usual designation is Chairman and CEO. Or something more grandiose.

https://investors.sonos.com/corporate-governance/default.aspx

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