The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

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K

Will keep my home as dumb as possible and especially will be very cautious about locking into the ecosystem of a specific company.  And I will be discussing this issue with family and friends.  Smart technology for me will be limited to cheap toys.

That is a logical approach to take, once aware of the issue. But I would not dismiss cheap, smart front ends like Dots etc as toys - they are very well engineered and often state of the art.

M
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@MikeOinToronto : Bad idea; there is too much of missing frequencies between Dots and Echo Sub, and the mid range of the Dots sucks - Dots are really not meant for listening to music, except via their line out.

If you want to go down that route, test the regular cylindrical Echo with the Sub. Or, an Echo studio pair.

Because of the replacement risk, I would not go that way, the price point that is vulnerable obsolescence risk then goes too high in my book.

Far better to look for active speakers to run from the Dots - you can get these from USD 100 to USD 10000 or more. Make sure the expensive ones have service support - being dumb, they won't go out of service except via hardware failures.

Thanks Kumar.  You are likely correct.  I think I have been so emotionally invested in this that my rational thought has been messed up. Kind of like grieving it has taken me a while to process what is going on, with various stages of emotion along the way.  So I think from a practical stand point I am going to do nothing.  My play 1s and later connect survived the first round of cuts and they still work great.

I suspect both products will fall in the next round so I will have to then move them to legacy mode.  Then when they no longer function with my streaming service they will be done.  Whether it is in 6 months or six years i have no idea.

If the devices fail from physical causes I will replace them with dumb speaker/amp, cheap streamer/WiFi technology.  At any rate, no new Sonos stuff for me.

Finally I am going to try hard to recognize this as a good lesson for me.  I was very lucky in that I had not followed through with a couple of larger sonos purchases yet.  I figured a pair of play 5s would eventually replace my vintage stereo and a sub would eventually be added to my play ones in the living room.  I am very lucky this announcement came out before I made either of those purchases. Many other Sonos customers were not so lucky.

Finally it has opened my eyes to smart technology as a whole and helped me recognize that there are major drawbacks.  Won't be buying any large appliances that rely on apps or the internet to function.  Will keep my home as dumb as possible and especially will be very cautious about locking into the ecosystem of a specific company.  And I will be discussing this issue with family and friends.  Smart technology for me will be limited to cheap toys.

K

First, the terms “geek” and “non geek” words are used with no connotations of disrespect to either.

That said, this thread has gone long enough to need this post for the benefit of non geeks like me that are still with us:

It is interesting to see how many Sonos geeks this thread has drawn and what feels like an apocalypse to us non geeks, is a “isn't this fun, and I told you so” moment to them, with so many geeky approaches that are fascinating, bubbling to the surface. Which is fine, of course, that is the purpose of the thread; what is over the top for me, may be pragmatic for some one else.

But for people at a non geek level or inclination, some reminders to interject as a break in a long thread that looks to have legs:

  1. There is absolutely no need to do anything at this time. Wait till May, for Sonos to announce all it says it will - that will provide a better base from which to move forward.
  2. For those subscribing to the ethos suggested by the opening post and the thread title, adopting the legacy system approach, that will become clearer in May, is the way forward.
  3. Be very careful before opting for the other approach of a split system. Running such has a risk of being found to be tiresome in use, while also running a risk of not being able to come back to a single legacy system.
  4. Even if the legacy system option brings trouble for streaming services working with your kit at any time after May, as long as you retain the legacy kit with line in jacks that you have today, there is a non geeky solution as simple as wiring something like an Echo Dot, or similar made by someone else, to these jacks; all that will need is simple stereo cable/s. 
  5. Music play from your local NAS will continue to work as long as legacy hardware works. Sonos has said this clearly more than once in the last few days. It will work even if the NAS or router dies and has to be replaced before any legacy hardware suffers a failure - @Ryan S for reconfirmation please.
  6. While I detest the Trade up program for creating environmental damage by every unit sent to a landfill that is far in excess of the 30% discount it delivers as mere money, that’s just me. If you still think it makes sense to you, Sonos has said that it has no end date. Having said that, I can see a conflict there - Sonos may come under environmental lobby pressures, or those arising from any corporate conscience it may have, to withdraw or amend that program to be a more environmentally responsible one, but that is speculation that no one can or should undertake to do on your behalf. And for all you know this change may also not leave you worse of than you are now - something that achieves that would be the best kind of change to the program. 
  7. Before buying any more smart audio kit henceforth, be it from Sonos, or from anyone else, do research/due diligence adopting the “Once bitten, twice shy” thinking.

This thread is starting to wind down, which is understandable - there are only so many pragmatic things that one can do for a music system! I thought that it would now be good time to again bump the post above so that it is easily accessed by folks that chance upon this thread from here on.

Not much has changed to what was written above ten days ago, except the discovery that a split system that has line in jacks on both sides of the split can be made inter operable via a couple of Echo Dots grouped for multi room music via the Alexa app, wired to a line in jack on either side of the split.

On a personal level, what I will be exploring now is how to get my Echo Show to play music from my NAS, with album art as the icing on that cake, that can then be served up to Sonos zones. But conversations around that belong to the companion Advance Approaches thread, where these are presently underway with guidance from @castalla .

This thread may come to life again as May dawns, but for now I will limit my contributions here to answers to implementation questions/new ideas that are not advanced ones.

K

@MikeOinToronto : Bad idea; there is too much of missing frequencies between Dots and Echo Sub, and the mid range of the Dots sucks - Dots are really not meant for listening to music, except via their line out.

If you want to go down that route, test the regular cylindrical Echo with the Sub. Or, an Echo studio pair.

Because of the replacement risk, I would not go that way, the price point that is vulnerable obsolescence risk then goes too high in my book.

Far better to look for active speakers to run from the Dots - you can get these from USD 100 to USD 10000 or more. Make sure the expensive ones have service support - being dumb, they won't go out of service except via hardware failures.

M
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I may try using a stereo pair of echo dots with the echo sub in my living room to compare against my pair of play ones.  Before last months announcement I figured I would eventually add a sonos sub to my pair of play ones.  Absolutely not going to consider this anymore.  I have no doubt it won't compete with a sonos play one /sub combo but I can get two dots plus the sub for about the price of a single Sonos one.  Plus I already have the dots around the house so the only new cost would be 129 USD for the sub.  Would stereo dots plus sub compete with a single or even a pair of play ones? Would be interesting to find out.  And yes, Amazon could easily discontinue the dots in the same way but at least the cost of replacement would be substantially lower and I go into this with my eyes wide open about what the company really is.

T
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Just for clarity,  “muddled” is subjective, of course.  Relative to Sonos, the Echo sounded more muddled, with Sonos unmuddled.

K

@train nerd - I have not found any SQ issues with Echo show wired via Line In. I admit that I have not spent any time looking for perhaps subtle differences by taking the room ambient noise floor to below what it is at even my quietest times to catch these, and also have not done any back and forth to see what I can then catch. Neither do I use monitor quality headphones or speakers to do so. If the music sounds good when I get the sound levels to where I need them to be, and there is no stuttering, I am good to go. In short, I don't use music as a test signal.

It might be pertinent to also note here something that may be relevant to you and useful to others.

Every stereo salesman is taught the “louder sounds better” trick to guide users towards what is to be sold. All it takes is even a small 0.1dB louder for this effect to work in the listeners brain; and the louder music is described using words I will quote from your post above: “ louder, cleaner, crisper, relatively unmuddled” as compared to the music that may be just 0.1dB less loud which sounds, again quoting you: “clean, crisp, muddled”. Although I can’t get how music that is clean and crisp can sound muddled!

And you have been less flowery than the norm - the louder by 0.1dB music is described as “ warm, palpably present, with more rhythm, attack and timing...etc etc etc”. All it takes is 0.1dB. That is how the brain is wired. Of course, the flowery language has to be learned:-).

Which is why controlled blind listening tests need precision level matching - done by instruments, not by human ears.

But the good news is that there is any easy way to get over such differences at home - just give the volume control slider a nudge towards the right.

K

I was under the impression that this was the “pragmatic” thread. Due respect to all, but it’s drifting back toward the swirling tempest.

Second star to the right and straight on ‘til morning.

 

Agreed, nudge noted. I have decided to stop posting on every thread other than this one and its companion. It isn't worth the effort, and I can still get my daily dose of entertainment in lurking mode there, from posters on either side of the divide. 

Moving on: over on the advanced thread, if the stupid spam filter will let me show it, there is an interesting conversation with @castalla under way on how to get the Echo Show to stream from local media with album art. It sounds intriguing enough to motivate me to get the Raspberry Pi and learn how to get it to sing and dance. Discussions have been via PM because the spam filter butted in, I will see if I can capture those and post them in the Advanced Approaches thread.

Relevant for this thread is the realisation that the Echo Show need not be wire tethered to the Line In - I think it has BT out capability and if so, it can wirelessly stream to a receiver wired to the Line In jacks. BT is also getting better, and can be useful where it isn’t being done from a phone and being interrupted by it. 

PS: I see that Ryan has restored the filter snagged posts; I have therefore had to copy only the last PM exchange.

T
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Progress (modest) report:

100% (up from 90%) Echo Dot volume brought modest improvement in reported output, but not where we want it to be.  No distortion observed. 

Methods:
Echo Link optical output Toslink connect to receiver third optical input (new).
ZP-90 optical output Toslink connect to receiver first optical input (existing).
Compare Echo Dot analog output to Echo Link optical output.
Link and ZP-90 source volumes set (via app) at both half and full scale.
Two streams tested:  1) TuneIn, local FM station selected; 2) Sirius XM Loft channel.
Amazon Music not yet tested.
Baseline: no changes to receiver volume setting, all scenarios.

Observations: (YMMV, IMHO)
Two adult listeners who love our music, thus argue both not professionals, not novices. No known hearing deficits.
Streams via Sonos louder, cleaner, crisper, relatively unmuddled. They are what we expect from our music.
Streams via Echo Link less: loud, clean, crisp, muddled. They are not up to our expectations, but it works alright.
Echo Link volume increase necessary to achieve comparable listening level: 10-20% subjective.
Unknown if quality of streams via each source/device are different. We definitely can detect a difference. Does anyone factually know if different?
Unknown if difference can be attributed to device, stream, both or other factors.
Using sources above, Echo Link optical output above sounds better than Echo Dot analog output (no surprise here).

Thoughts (Ready, fire, aim with yours begging indulgence):
Streaming based, Sonos wins hands down, clearly superior.
No trials NAS music library: Sonos vs Echo MyMedia skill.
Stick with Echo Link on preference over Dot and other app features.
Echo could save opted-in legacy Sonos hardware, so far....
Plan to go with legacy mode Sonos based on what we know now.
Sonos performs and has features we prefer; plenty still to learn about  Echo app.
Echo streams:  Disappointing for us. Step it up.
Unfortunate the Connect Amp has no optical input.

Opining:
Is a second ecosystem or Sonos trade-up worth it?  Need to get more data on the table before more $$$ spent.  If no financial constraint on facts known so far: Sonos it is.  Our past Sonos upgrades have been used to expand our system thru wider deployment.  We'd contract deployment to retain music listening we expect, i.e. let the Play5s go in less-used bedrooms rooms where they live now.  Keep whatever we can alive in the public areas. Later consider Play Ones.

Hey Sonos:  (have at Ryan!)
Three requests, if not already available: 

Can I get discount on new Play Ones to replace Play 5s? 

Whatever you can tell us about PlayBar and PlayBase (and other) obsolete schedule is welcome and serves transparency having not gotten it wrong from the start.

Can you step-up and puuhhlease do a plug-in device rendering the Play5s, ZP-90s, Connect Amps (in my case) dumb with the device handling the hard work?  Holy Heifers Batman, JUST DO IT!!  I'll speculate it serves well: your Brand, your customer allegiance and respect, less mass to recycling and/or landfill.

Thank you. End rant.

chickentender

I was under the impression that this was the “pragmatic” thread. Due respect to all, but it’s drifting back toward the swirling tempest.

Second star to the right and straight on ‘til morning.

 

melvimbe

Equally interesting is the response from the usual suspects defending Sonos in this instance as well:grin:

 

@Kumar, is this the response you find interesting?

 

https://en.community.sonos.com/components-228996/i-have-traded-up-my-legacy-sonos-5-believeing-that-it-would-soon-be-inoperable-what-now-6836720/index2.html#post16403189

 

 

Danny
R
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@RDog : To repeat what I have said elsewhere - Since the Port can work with any product via its output jacks, what’s to stop you from buying a bunch of cheap Ports ( I am sure that the price point of the Port has nothing to do with costs), and using them with your choice of third party speakers? You get all the Sonos functionality, while the Sonos top line is damaged - and even blown out of the water once everyone starts adopting this obvious approach.

 

The device I envisioned would have no line outs or other audio outputs - all comms with (legacy) Sonos devices would be over the network.

Therefore, you could not use it with “your choice of third party speakers”, only with Sonos devices.

 

 

For Sonos to sell a cheap Port type device, they simply have to allow it to work only with Sonos products - which then should be dumb speakers. 

 

Yes, that’s the idea. Allowing the formerly smart speakers to live on as good sounding networked speakers having had the smart and streaming functionality off-boarded to new, inexpensive (less-durable) modules.

 

 

Amazon and Google can sell similar at cost - or even below cost - because they do not need the top line from these products. Sonos does not have that luxury.

The opportunity for Sonos is to disaggregate their expensive smart speakers physically - replaceable smart modules sold at or below cost, docked into speakers that sound as good as they do today, like the old iPod dock speakers, but with proprietary comms. Then the Sonos smart module can be replaced every 3-4 years even, while the speakers can be built for decades of service required by their higher price points.

 

They could indeed take that approach for new models, but not past or present, hence the approach outlined above, delivering on that philosophy but for legacy and current devices.

K

Equally interesting is the response from the usual suspects defending Sonos in this instance as well:grin:

K

Spending some time on the other threads keep delivering interesting insights:

Spence said this in July 2018, on the record: “what we have done is made those products better every year through the software updates that you get, which really are included in the purchase price that you paid up front." His exact words.

Now, Sonos also has sold to me, as to the rest of the world, a whole house system.

But now they are telling me that for that to survive, I need to keep my 3 legacy products and 4 modern products in legacy system mode, where the modern products will no longer get better - something that per Spence, I have already paid for.

So, the logical conclusion from the above is that I am due some refund from Sonos on my four play 1 units and one Sub which will remain in legacy system mode and not get better although Sonos has collected the money to make them better. Because unless they remain in that mode, my whole house system that continued to be sold to me as such when I bought the play 1 units and the Sub, will not work as such.

Over to @Ryan S for a response or rebuttal.

K

Plenty to explore on Alexa app; haven’t yet discovered such on Alexa app. Not real keen on voice commands preferring app use (possible luddite here) on security merit, but who knows whether turn-off listening actually works/is hackable or both. 

There are plenty of hidden features in the Alexa app, so be sure to explore fully. Plus, there are differences in the app for phones v that for computers. The former has many more features, but the one for computers has a few things that the one for phones does not have. So worth exploring both.

I often use the app commands to drive my wired to Sonos devices, voice is often not appropriate. And during parties I hit the mic off button on the Echo to stop Alexa from thinking that people are calling her and then interjecting with weird comments across the grouped zones. That works fine, and shuts her up. Whether Amazon continues to listen in or not, I haven’t the time to care. No one is plotting the next bombing at my parties, and if Amazon want add to its servers one more banal set of conversations to billions others, they are welcome to do that.

M
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Echo Link on the way to see if it plays (pun intended) nicer than Inputs or Dots. Appreciate the commentary on it.  Will experiment with Link-out/receiver-in digital and analog options.  Dots going back, swap out for Echo Link on sunk cost and additional other credits. Will hold on to one Echo Input and test with Connect Amp Line-In once the Echo Link is going, thus allowing preservation of the legacy Connect Amp. Reports follow on completion of trials.

We still love the Sonos functionality here, particularly alarm features that let user select source, e.g. TuneIn station or Sirius XM.  Plenty to explore on Alexa app; haven’t yet discovered such on Alexa app. Not real keen on voice commands preferring app use (possible luddite here) on security merit, but who knows whether turn-off listening actually works/is hackable or both.  Larger question remains about preferred echosystem: Sonos, Echo, or both(yikes).

Spoke to Anthem today about Echo low input experience here, and rep reported it ought to work.  Nothing special about their receivers/inputs that would explain my observation.  He reported he personally had similar set up. He spontaneously speculated low voltage output from Echo, but had no direct experience while passing along reported-here advice to ensure Echo device and Alexa apps be set at high end of output/volume.  Further, they reported no adverse effect on receiver by running it at high volume to accommodate my low Echo Input/Dot experience.

 

 

 

Did you turn the volume on the Alexa app from 90 percent to 100 percent.  I believe this will fix your issue regardless of what echo device you choose.

T
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Echo Link on the way to see if it plays (pun intended) nicer than Inputs or Dots. Appreciate the commentary on it.  Will experiment with Link-out/receiver-in digital and analog options.  Dots going back, swap out for Echo Link on sunk cost and additional other credits. Will hold on to one Echo Input and test with Connect Amp Line-In once the Echo Link is going, thus allowing preservation of the legacy Connect Amp. Reports follow on completion of trials.

We still love the Sonos functionality here, particularly alarm features that let user select source, e.g. TuneIn station or Sirius XM.  Plenty to explore on Alexa app; haven’t yet discovered such on Alexa app. Not real keen on voice commands preferring app use (possible luddite here) on security merit, but who knows whether turn-off listening actually works/is hackable or both.  Larger question remains about preferred echosystem: Sonos, Echo, or both(yikes).

Spoke to Anthem today about Echo low input experience here, and rep reported it ought to work.  Nothing special about their receivers/inputs that would explain my observation.  He reported he personally had similar set up. He spontaneously speculated low voltage output from Echo, but had no direct experience while passing along reported-here advice to ensure Echo device and Alexa apps be set at high end of output/volume.  Further, they reported no adverse effect on receiver by running it at high volume to accommodate my low Echo Input/Dot experience.

 

 

 

M
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Progress (not) update:

Received Echo Dot today to trial.  Checked out wiring/other AUX inputs with other non-Echo devices and function appears to be fine.

Pretty much same result as reported earlier with Echo Input device. Other devices typically need 30-40% scale volume setting on A/V receiver for comfortable listening volume. Both Echo Dot and Echo Input require 70-80% to achieve comparable listening level with Alexa App volume set to 90%. For me it works, but not well….  It makes me worry as I speculate pushing A/V receiver too hard (maybe it’s not working harder since input signal is low, but don’t know enough about how these work).

 

 

Am I missing something obvious here.  You say the Alexa app is at 90 percent.  Why is this not at 100 percent.

I’ve never ran inputs that have variable output gain at 100% as a matter of course. It normally leads to signal distortion when using the max capable output that a given device can handle/provide. I’ve no direct experience with Echo devices and this is just old rule of thumb for my part, but I’d wager the signal is cleaner when backed off. Might not be true here for plenty of reasons I’m not aware of.

The discussion goes back to digital volume controls and the way they function.  And this was primarily an issue with 16 bit volume controls I believe that are less theoretically relevant these days.  But even if you are 100 percent correct it still is likely the reason why his output is much lower.  If there are two volume controls in the chain they will add together.  He is attenuating ten percent of the signal before it gets to the preamp.

Now he may choose to use 90 percent on the app (for real or imagined sound preferences) but then the preamp will have to be turned up higher for the same overall volume.  His concernvseemed to be that his volume knob on the preamp has to be much higher with the echo than other devices.

 

K

@chickentender : I doubt this applies to things like Alexa app. And it definitely does not apply to the Connect/Port - indeed that one has a fixed output level option in it, where it is always at 100%.

As do almost all CD players, by the way.

chickentender

Progress (not) update:

Received Echo Dot today to trial.  Checked out wiring/other AUX inputs with other non-Echo devices and function appears to be fine.

Pretty much same result as reported earlier with Echo Input device. Other devices typically need 30-40% scale volume setting on A/V receiver for comfortable listening volume. Both Echo Dot and Echo Input require 70-80% to achieve comparable listening level with Alexa App volume set to 90%. For me it works, but not well….  It makes me worry as I speculate pushing A/V receiver too hard (maybe it’s not working harder since input signal is low, but don’t know enough about how these work).

 

 

Am I missing something obvious here.  You say the Alexa app is at 90 percent.  Why is this not at 100 percent.

I’ve never ran inputs that have variable output gain at 100% as a matter of course. It normally leads to signal distortion when using the max capable output that a given device can handle/provide. I’ve no direct experience with Echo devices and this is just old rule of thumb for my part, but I’d wager the signal is cleaner when backed off. Might not be true here for plenty of reasons I’m not aware of.

K

There is a noticeable dialling down of Sonos presence on this thread. Either on their own, or under orders to do so. Not complaining, we seem to be doing ok without it:-)).

 

 

 

K

@MikeOinToronto : good catch!

M
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Progress (not) update:

Received Echo Dot today to trial.  Checked out wiring/other AUX inputs with other non-Echo devices and function appears to be fine.

Pretty much same result as reported earlier with Echo Input device. Other devices typically need 30-40% scale volume setting on A/V receiver for comfortable listening volume. Both Echo Dot and Echo Input require 70-80% to achieve comparable listening level with Alexa App volume set to 90%. For me it works, but not well….  It makes me worry as I speculate pushing A/V receiver too hard (maybe it’s not working harder since input signal is low, but don’t know enough about how these work).

 

 

Am I missing something obvious here.  You say the Alexa app is at 90 percent.  Why is this not at 100 percent.

chickentender

Progress (not) update:

Received Echo Dot today to trial.  Checked out wiring/other AUX inputs with other non-Echo devices and function appears to be fine.

Pretty much same result as reported earlier with Echo Input device. Other devices typically need 30-40% scale volume setting on A/V receiver for comfortable listening volume. Both Echo Dot and Echo Input require 70-80% to achieve comparable listening level with Alexa App volume set to 90%. For me it works, but not well….  It makes me worry as I speculate pushing A/V receiver too hard (maybe it’s not working harder since input signal is low, but don’t know enough about how these work).

This is really a deficit/fail for me since I have multiple A/V or speaker amps in the house, and it practically limits adoption of Echo "ecosystem".

The current ZP-90 is connected to A/V system via optical-in, and using that to A/V receiver is perfectly fine without having to set volume way higher on A/V receiver.

Maybe a receiver firmware update would fix it since that is long overdue.  Will try that, and explore input options other than AUX, receiver mfg advice/settings. Tale of woe is tiresome pull of HEAVY A/V cabinet away from wall, crawling around, testing, pushing cabinet back.

Anybody have a point of view about whether this could be fixed with Echo device firmware update?

BTW off topic, Dot price decreased $20 ($50 earlier) during Superbowl, overnight from previous day purchase.  Request to Amazon to credit price difference met with separate refusal from four different representatives during my effort to escalate, obviously trying to wear me out (or pad incentive driven representative compensation?) Unfortunate if not pathetic Amazon “resistance is futile” cannot/will not handle gesture of good faith. End rant.

 

Never having to deal with Amazon customer service more than I already must is reason enough for me to eschew this approach. :) Amongst other reasons. But otherwise, good on you guys for soldiering forward!

K

 The more prominent reason is that the you don’t need to have the dot, more importantly, the Alexa microphones, directly wired to your AV system.  As an example, you can have a dot sitting on the table next to your couch, instead of the TV/AV stand across the room..where you might need to shout to be heard. 

I find myself using Amazon cast as much as I use voice commands - except when I am alone and voice does not get embarrassing. So that addresses this issue for me. Spotify Connect too would serve to do this well.

The other neat way of doing voice discreetly is via the Alexa voice remote that can sit next to you, so you don't have to shout across the room to the wired to speaker Dot.

 

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