The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

Show first post
This topic has been closed for further comments. You can use the search bar to find a similar topic, or create a new one by clicking Create Topic at the top of the page.

570 replies

K

Progress (not) on Echo Input wired to AUX analog input

Feels like making it work is getting too messy.

 

In summary, and for others contemplating this use with Sonos Line In:

Keep at it, in my case it worked out of the box every time I did this, with the time it took to connect the stereo cable at both ends being the only extra time required, once Sonos unit line in settings had been set. There is something you are doing wrong, or there is a defective Echo, cable, cable connection, input jack or setting somewhere. If you follow a logical step by step fault finding process, you will know exactly where the issue is.

One caveat, just for the record: I have not used the Echo Input - my Dots, Spot, and Show 5 have worked equally well in the manner I have described..

Although unlikely, there may be something in the lowest priced product in the line up, the Input, that is responsible for what you are seeing. But this is the least likely possibility.

K

These discussions are moot though, since Sonos won't do squat on either of the two lines, so, leaving this bridging to Amazon/Google/Others via Sonos Line In, moving on...

K

@MikeOinToronto : I say free because this functionality should have been in the other paid for boxes in the first place. Free also to rebuild the trust and the reputation built over 15 years, that has been destroyed in a month.

And you would be surprised at how much can be packed into a dongle these days - far more than could be in a Connect in 2010.

The thinking is for the legacy speakers to retain existing smart functions and not be just dumb speakers, in either stand alone mode, or when playing as a group of legacy system zones. Making them dumb would enrage another set of users. The dongle is needed only for combined in sync music play across both systems.

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

I know I would feel much better about Sonos going forward if they created a reasonably cheap bridge device to do this.  

@MikeOinToronto

This echoes what someone in the vent thread has suggested as well:

The “box” attaches to both the legacy network and the update capable network. Call it “Bridge 2” 

What this box has to do - since legacy products are allegedly not capable of doing - is to receive music streams from one system and hand it off to the other. That’s it - a little WiFi dongle that is version less and therefore never to be upgraded; ideally it should go directly into a main socket.  And Sonos should give it away free to any account that has a split system registered to it. 

And instead of coming out and giving “n” number of reasons why this cannot be done, the direction should be towards making it happen. 

But the “can do” attitude seems to be missing from Sonos these days; but I have a solution that also gives me album art, so I really don't care any more.

I don't even expect it to be free, just low cost.  If a 200 dollar box would keep legacy products viable I would be good with that.  I don't see it as a dongle but more along the lines of a box that does the processing for legacy devices, essentially turning them into dumb speakers that just play the music stream.

K

I know I would feel much better about Sonos going forward if they created a reasonably cheap bridge device to do this.  

@MikeOinToronto 

This echoes what someone in the vent thread has suggested as well:

The “box” attaches to both the legacy network and the update capable network. Call it “Bridge 2” 

What this box has to do - since legacy products are allegedly not capable of doing - is to receive music streams from one system and hand it off to the other. That’s it - a little WiFi dongle that is version less and therefore never to be upgraded; ideally it should go directly into a main socket.  And Sonos should give it away free to any account that has a split system registered to it. 

And instead of coming out and giving “n” number of reasons why this cannot be done, the direction should be towards making it happen. 

But the “can do” attitude seems to be missing from Sonos these days; but I have a solution that also gives me album art, so I really don't care any more.

K

@train_nerd : Is the echo dot volume set to full, to start with? So that the only thing that varies the sound levels in the room are is the Anthem volume slider.

The echo dot output is a standard line level one that works with a range of external speakers so you should not have issues except with sophisticated kit like Sonos and some amps that have adjustable line in sensitivity. In Sonos, this often needs the line in level to be set to maximum, 10. 

Line in level signal exchanges do not have impedance issues.

The other possibilities: defective Echo, defect in the line in jack on the Anthem - try another -, defective cable. Eliminate possibilities one at a time is the way to address defects.

All my Echo devices have worked flawlessly with a wide range of external speakers/devices like JBL Flip, Minirig portable speakers, and of course, Connect and Connect Amp. Sound levels are not an issue.

And re the pre amp - these are needed only to boost signals from turntable to line level for amps that do not have phono sockets that have a preamp downstream of the socket. Do NOT feed the Echo output to a preamp; the latter will probably be damaged.

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

So far, quiet only.  Other inputs typically need 20% total volume (linear) for casual listening. Echo Input device needed 60% scale to be marginally acceptable audible (Low).  No known other options to increase output other than volume setting in Echo app, which was only one offered by Amazon support.  Pre-amp? I don’t know.  Makes me wonder about impedance issues.  Did not detect distortion at moderate audible levels. 

Thinking that I observed some reports that Echo Dot was okay, so I’d welcome actual experience reports using similar set-up with Echo Dot; cheaper than pre-amp addition?

I did this prior to buying my sonos connect and it worked fine for me.  Echo dot out via 3.5 to stereo RCA cable to aux input on my integrated amplifier.  Worked well but I wanted sonos integration so I bought the sonos connect.  Also did this in the bathroom outputting to a tivoli pal radio via 3.5 to 3.5 cable and this worked fine.  Could be the Amazon input is defective, could also be a defective cable.  Or perhaps the Amazon input is different from the dot but I can't see why they would design it differently.

T
Userlevel 3
Badge +1

So far, quiet only.  Other inputs typically need 20% total volume (linear) for casual listening. Echo Input device needed 60% scale to be marginally acceptable audible (Low).  No known other options to increase output other than volume setting in Echo app, which was only one offered by Amazon support.  Pre-amp? I don’t know.  Makes me wonder about impedance issues.  Did not detect distortion at moderate audible levels. 

Thinking that I observed some reports that Echo Dot was okay, so I’d welcome actual experience reports using similar set-up with Echo Dot; cheaper than pre-amp addition?

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

Progress (not) on Echo Input wired to AUX analog input to A/V receiver (rather than Line-In) on ZP90.  Unsure how this reconciles with known low input of Sonos devices described earlier; had planned to trial Echo Input wired to Line-In on Connect AMP linked to A/V receiver also wired with Echo Input device.

Posted to Amazon Forum:

“….Obvious design problem when using 3.5 mm jack to RCA phono input AUX input to A/V receiver. Not apparent that the device output is at typical required Line-In level. Experimenting here as alternative to Sonos components which will be used on legacy devices by Sonos, particularly Play 5, ZP-90, Connect Amp using Line-In input.

Sonos aside, the input signal is waaay too weak to point of device being a "fail" because of this fault. Amazon support not aware of impedance rating/spec for device nor recommended pre-amp for device. Gotta experiement wih pre-amp at my (and your) own risk. FWIW, they offered new device, but no reason to believe that would solve this significant problem for A/V system AUX input users, or others. Disappointed, urgently needs a fix since it really limits adopting Alexa ecosystem in my case.”

Feels like making it work is getting too messy.

 

Not 100 percent clear on what you are describing.  But if you are saying you are trying to put an amazon echo device to av receiver you would go line out on the echo to one of the line ins on the av receiver.  Any line in other than one marked phono as that would be used only for turntables.  I have done this before.  I may be misunderstanding as my echo dots only have line outs but I believe the higher up echo devices have both line in and line out.  


Used Echo Input device 3.5 mm output (only one) to female 3.5/RCA male phono adapter to A/V receiver AUX input on Anthem MRX710. Volume setting on Echo Input set at maximum, still waaay weak FWIW.  Hope that clarifies.

BTW, turns out multiple reports of this on Amazon forum for this device.  Not clear my post yet went thru on their site….in review queue or speculate (premature?) omitted on merit poor report; unknown.

Ok.  Makes sense now and sounds correct.  Any possibility that an additional volume control in play ie. Playback software or Alexa app.  Also is the sound just quiet or distorted as well.

T
Userlevel 3
Badge +1

Progress (not) on Echo Input wired to AUX analog input to A/V receiver (rather than Line-In) on ZP90.  Unsure how this reconciles with known low input of Sonos devices described earlier; had planned to trial Echo Input wired to Line-In on Connect AMP linked to A/V receiver also wired with Echo Input device.

Posted to Amazon Forum:

“….Obvious design problem when using 3.5 mm jack to RCA phono input AUX input to A/V receiver. Not apparent that the device output is at typical required Line-In level. Experimenting here as alternative to Sonos components which will be used on legacy devices by Sonos, particularly Play 5, ZP-90, Connect Amp using Line-In input.

Sonos aside, the input signal is waaay too weak to point of device being a "fail" because of this fault. Amazon support not aware of impedance rating/spec for device nor recommended pre-amp for device. Gotta experiement wih pre-amp at my (and your) own risk. FWIW, they offered new device, but no reason to believe that would solve this significant problem for A/V system AUX input users, or others. Disappointed, urgently needs a fix since it really limits adopting Alexa ecosystem in my case.”

Feels like making it work is getting too messy.

 

Not 100 percent clear on what you are describing.  But if you are saying you are trying to put an amazon echo device to av receiver you would go line out on the echo to one of the line ins on the av receiver.  Any line in other than one marked phono as that would be used only for turntables.  I have done this before.  I may be misunderstanding as my echo dots only have line outs but I believe the higher up echo devices have both line in and line out.  


Used Echo Input device 3.5 mm output (only one) to female 3.5/RCA male phono adapter to A/V receiver AUX input on Anthem MRX710. Volume setting on Echo Input set at maximum, still waaay weak FWIW.  Hope that clarifies.

BTW, turns out multiple reports of this on Amazon forum for this device.  Not clear my post yet went thru on their site….in review queue or speculate (premature?) omitted on merit poor report; unknown.

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

Progress (not) on Echo Input wired to AUX analog input to A/V receiver (rather than Line-In) on ZP90.  Unsure how this reconciles with known low input of Sonos devices described earlier; had planned to trial Echo Input wired to Line-In on Connect AMP linked to A/V receiver also wired with Echo Input device.

Posted to Amazon Forum:

“….Obvious design problem when using 3.5 mm jack to RCA phono input AUX input to A/V receiver. Not apparent that the device output is at typical required Line-In level. Experimenting here as alternative to Sonos components which will be used on legacy devices by Sonos, particularly Play 5, ZP-90, Connect Amp using Line-In input.

Sonos aside, the input signal is waaay too weak to point of device being a "fail" because of this fault. Amazon support not aware of impedance rating/spec for device nor recommended pre-amp for device. Gotta experiement wih pre-amp at my (and your) own risk. FWIW, they offered new device, but no reason to believe that would solve this significant problem for A/V system AUX input users, or others. Disappointed, urgently needs a fix since it really limits adopting Alexa ecosystem in my case.”

Feels like making it work is getting too messy.

 

Not 100 percent clear on what you are describing.  But if you are saying you are trying to put an amazon echo device to av receiver you would go line out on the echo to one of the line ins on the av receiver.  Any line in other than one marked phono as that would be used only for turntables.  I have done this before.  I may be misunderstanding as my echo dots only have line outs but I believe the higher up echo devices have both line in and line out.  

T
Userlevel 3
Badge +1

Progress (not) on Echo Input wired to AUX analog input to A/V receiver (rather than Line-In) on ZP90.  Unsure how this reconciles with known low input of Sonos devices described earlier; had planned to trial Echo Input wired to Line-In on Connect AMP linked to A/V receiver also wired with Echo Input device.

Posted to Amazon Forum:

“….Obvious design problem when using 3.5 mm jack to RCA phono input AUX input to A/V receiver. Not apparent that the device output is at typical required Line-In level. Experimenting here as alternative to Sonos components which will be used on legacy devices by Sonos, particularly Play 5, ZP-90, Connect Amp using Line-In input.

Sonos aside, the input signal is waaay too weak to point of device being a "fail" because of this fault. Amazon support not aware of impedance rating/spec for device nor recommended pre-amp for device. Gotta experiement wih pre-amp at my (and your) own risk. FWIW, they offered new device, but no reason to believe that would solve this significant problem for A/V system AUX input users, or others. Disappointed, urgently needs a fix since it really limits adopting Alexa ecosystem in my case.”

Feels like making it work is getting too messy.

 

K

Back in 2011, I played around with airplay using Airport Express boxes wired to the HiFi system I then had. It worked very well when it did, but music play was not as stable as I needed it to be and I switched to Sonos.

Is Airplay 2 better enough to be a useful option for those having such modern products that have it that are affected by the Sonos brexit? I don't have any such, so I can comment or advise.

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

I know I would feel much better about Sonos going forward if they created a reasonably cheap bridge device to do this.  It would reassure almost everyone who believes this is just a business decision.  And if we as customers are finding work arounds I do believe a billion dollar company with some of the most experienced engineers in the world in this area could find a brilliant and beautiful solution.  It likely would even allow me to start buying their products again.

K

@MikeOinToronto : one hopes that Sonos will understand that while ambition with subtle moves might work, naked ambition will be counter productive. Or another way of saying this, sins of omission may get forgotten and forgiven, sins of commission are not likely to be, if exposed.

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

Just wanted to add one other thought to this thread as it seems people are coming up with some viable  and clever work arounds.  All of these ideas depend on the fact that Sonos really has tried and not come up with a technical solution to allow legacy products to continue to function correctly. What if these issues were really seen by management as an opportunity to bring in a different business model.  So if the two echo dot solution resolves the technical issues and this allows customers to keep legacy gear, do you not suspect Sonos to then disable something in the legacy system so that echo dots cannot sync with modern systems.  If roon can control both legacy and new systems would a future sonos update not break the link to roon for legacy systems.  Of course sonos management would not acknowledge it but if they have decided that they want to go to a five year life cycle for business reasons, changes to the sonos software will help support that business goal, not work against it.  So my guess, if this is the case, is that as customers find clever ways to keep their products running, sonos will just write an update to block this feature.  Again, this is based on my belief that this decision is business driven, not technical.  I can see the announcement in May.  "Due to low memory limitations, legacy products will not be able to support integration with third party products such as Amazon Echo, Google Home, or Roon."  And bang, all these solutions no longer work.

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

Seeing once again this perfect Echo sync that drives via Line In the Sonos sync across two Sonos systems, raises the question I have asked before - how does Echo achieve this trick? I have a suspicion that it isn't done at a local level at all like Sonos does; somewhere in the Alexa cloud, the Echo group is registered as such - as evidenced to an extent by the fact that Echo groups, unlike Sonos ones, survive power cycling. The music streams then are synced in the cloud and sent at the exact same time to each Echo device in the group. That the music also plays in sync at distant destinations after passing through a bunch of devices en-route demonstrates how well this works. If that is indeed the way this works. And if so, there may not be any Sonos patent infringement by Amazon. And given that Amazon may provide Sonos with a solution to this significant issue of integrating split systems, Sonos may not even want to approach any sleeping dogs there, even if there are any such.

Which leads to one of the biggest issues leading to my lack of trust with the company now.  I agree that two echo dots may end up being a good solution with the echo acting only as a mechanism for syncing legacy and new.  If the solution is so simple, why won't Sonos come up with a cheap bridge device to sync between these.  It wouldn't then require line in devices to do this.  Perhaps Amazon does this in the cloud and sonos does not have the resources.  If yes, state that but don't imply it can't be done.  Once again we have customers proving that the belief that this is strictly a technical issue are wrong. 

Again I believe this is a company that wants to change its business model.  Fair enough, I don't own the company.  But don't pretend it is purely a technical issue.  Both Roon and echo solutions seem able to fix the final issue that is really bothering customers, syncing legacy and modern systems.  My guess is Google devices could do the same.  And these will be the solutions customers will turn to if sonos don't come up with their own solution.  I think that Sonos leadership just has to understand that most people will not just throw away their legacy products to help sonos raise their revenue and make a serious internal effort to maintain full functionality in all devices.   Essentially demonstrate that they are still leaders in this technology.

 

K

The obvious question to anyone here that has a bricked 5: what happens if you plug a phone playing music into the line in jack of a 5? Does it even boot up if power is applied?

K

And more fun finds in the vent thread, quoted below, with my response there included in the quoted:

Quote

DK_Madsen wrote:

 

There is even someone wanting to buy tradeup-bricked sonos play 5’s, he offers to pick them up at people’s home in his area and pay 20USD for them.

My guess is that he has found a way to reactivate them and want to sell them for profit as functioning legacy devices or maybe just reactivate them enough to be able to stick a echo dot on the back, hook it up to the jack port and sell it as an echo device.

 

 

Are there any reports of the bolded working? It is possible that whether it will depends on what was set for their line in setting at the time they were bricked by Sonos after being marked for recycling.

My testing of unbricked units suggests that it may even be possible to get these to do perfect sync multi room, by wiring a cheap Dot to each and multi rooming the Dots via the Alexa app.

End of quote

The mind boggles...and if it works, the planet will be grateful, never mind in how small a way.

A

 

it definitely looks like this thread provides some great ideas or next steps for my review.

 

@Noelle Good luck; it is a long and therefore unwieldy thread, an outcome arising out of the nature of an online discussion, so take your time! I am trying to address that by forking the thread into two, as you will see on a post on this page, but even if that helps, we are stuck with the present levels of unwieldiness that nothing can reduce. A legacy problem:-)).

@Ryan S @Edward R : there seems to be something wrong with the link to the last page of this thread, it does not allow me to go directly to the last page from the thread list. I have to open the first page, and then click the last page there, a very tiresome process. I don’t know if this is affecting just me, of course; can you help?

Thanks.

No it’s happening to me, as well….

K

I have just concluded testing the Ryan idea referred to in the second paragraph quoted. IT WORKS, OUT OF THE BOX!! Kudos to Ryan!

 

This may be of interest, I just remembered - not only was the Boost/Sonos net powered off when I did the test, one of the Connect Amps even had its WiFi disabled. That suggests that all the syncing is happening in the Amazon domain. And that also suggests that even if Sonos pulls the plug completely on this Connect Amp, it will continue to work as a HiFi quality dumb amplifier till the hardware dies. As well as do grouped in sync play with the other legacy Connect/Connect Amps operating in similar mode, with the Echo devices taking over all the brain functions.

Which makes the Sonos advice to send these to a landfill in exchange for a 30% voucher, at the earliest opportunity, even more shocking - promoting the creation of unnecessary electronic waste just to promote their sales. The feeling at this is of being gobsmacked as such discoveries emerge.

K

 

it definitely looks like this thread provides some great ideas or next steps for my review.

 

@Noelle Good luck; it is a long and therefore unwieldy thread, an outcome arising out of the nature of an online discussion, so take your time! I am trying to address that by forking the thread into two, as you will see on a post on this page, but even if that helps, we are stuck with the present levels of unwieldiness that nothing can reduce. A legacy problem:-)).

@Ryan S @Edward R : there seems to be something wrong with the link to the last page of this thread, it does not allow me to go directly to the last page from the thread list. I have to open the first page, and then click the last page there, a very tiresome process. I don’t know if this is affecting just me, of course; can you help?

Thanks.

K

The more that I think about it, the more I see sense in now forking this thread, handing over the advanced approaches discussions to a new thread, while the simpler approaches that do not need anything more than stereo cables and third party off the shelf boxes to continue on this one, that I will remain associated with.

Anyone here that wishes to start the new thread via a fork to this one may please pm me to arrive at a quick common understanding of how to get this going in a way that allows both threads to remain useful. It will take just one or two back and forth messages to arrive at that, I am sure.

No one has responded to this suggestion, so while the majority of the user base is asleep because of the time differences/weekend, I have taken the opportunity of the quiet time here to fork this thread with a new one opened for advanced approaches, link below.

https://en.community.sonos.com/controllers-software-228995/the-sonos-brexit-and-pragmatic-ways-past-it-advanced-approaches-6836622

To recap:

A little over a week ago, I started this thread to engage with like minded people here: those that felt the way I did, as explained in my opening post here. I intended this to be the last thread I open on this site.

This thread has grown beyond expectations. While everyone on it has contributed to keep it profanity free and largely rant free, with an occasional nudge by @Edward R in that effort, just by virtue of its length, it has become unwieldy as all long threads become. And it has many days to run, because the Sonos Brexit event, and the release of detailed information about it by Sonos, are both at least three months away.

I therefore thought that it made sense to break my promise to myself - No More Threads - and make just  one exception to it, by opening a new thread, link above. That one is meant to discuss such approaches and options that may be employed by advanced users that are comfortable going well beyond plug and play options in pursuit of ways past this Sonos Brexit with or without incorporating any Sonos product in it. This thread may then continue to be used for options that probably a majority of Sonos users will be able to employ - the plug and play kind of options towards the same objective. Which are those that employ off the shelf third party devices that are self contained, such as Echo Dots as an example, where the only wiring, if needed, is external - a stereo wire running between Sonos and non Sonos devices. And which do not involve any coding or any attempt to get under the Sonos hood. Or which involve server like devices that need a complex set up to get it to work with Sonos. In brief, something that non geeks - and I am one of those - will be able to cope with are for this thread, while the complex options belong to the new thread, as its title suggests.

There is no set in stone dividing line between the two approaches and none is needed. I am sure that community judgement can be relied on to keep the two threads distinct, linked by a common ethos, in a way that both threads end up being more useful than one thread will be, just by being less unwieldy.

So, well before Sonos forks out legacy and modern systems into two, a fork to serve all that will be effected by the Sonos fork.

 

N

@Noelle : what you have posted is copy of your post on the other thread that is there for venting frustration. This thread is for the next steps - finding solutions available to us that do not rely on Sonos except where that simply cannot be avoided, and there are many such solutions. 

On that basis, how can we help you?

@Kumar thank you, I definitely should have read the thread.

it definitely looks like this thread provides some great ideas or next steps for my review.

 

K

Seeing once again this perfect Echo sync that drives via Line In the Sonos sync across two Sonos systems, raises the question I have asked before - how does Echo achieve this trick? I have a suspicion that it isn't done at a local level at all like Sonos does; somewhere in the Alexa cloud, the Echo group is registered as such - as evidenced to an extent by the fact that Echo groups, unlike Sonos ones, survive power cycling. The music streams then are synced in the cloud and sent at the exact same time to each Echo device in the group. That the music also plays in sync at distant destinations after passing through a bunch of devices en-route demonstrates how well this works. If that is indeed the way this works. And if so, there may not be any Sonos patent infringement by Amazon. And given that Amazon may provide Sonos with a solution to this significant issue of integrating split systems, Sonos may not even want to approach any sleeping dogs there, even if there are any such.

Terms & ConditionsCookie settings