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anybody replaced their Connect with a Port?

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ratty

I did experiment with a new Dac last week. It was a Beresford Caiman Seg. That really opened the sound of the port up.

Don’t you think that points to your DAC(s) as being the source of the ‘problem’, such as it is?

 

However the Bass was a little too tame for me.

Again, that sounds like the DAC.

I’m confused. One minute a DAC “opened the sound up”, the next it’s “lifeless”. 

ratty

A thought-provoking review. Its findings to a degree chime with my observations of soft-knee limiting in Variable Volume mode above about 85% (flat EQ) on the digital out when the input samples were at Full Scale. Soft-knee limiting is common, in order to avoid hard clipping in signals which could otherwise be driven above Full Scale by EQ etc. It could also mitigate potential inter-sample peaks over FS in a downstream DAC.

Fixed Volume is flat, without EQ, so a limiter isn’t strictly necessary. The digital signal can be passed straight through from the decoder. 

The observation about the analog outs is interesting, and on reflection makes sense. Whereas the digital outs have to be protected against going above Full Scale by a soft-knee limiter there is no such hard ceiling for the analog outs. Internally the pipeline is evidently 32-bit, so in both the digital and analog domains there is no practical limit anywhere. 

 

F
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Thanks Ratty, I think the connect has the same issue doesn’t it? 

K

 Soft-knee limiting is common, in order to avoid hard clipping in signals which could otherwise be driven above Full Scale by EQ etc.

 

Will this limiting come into play where the EQ is set to flat, for digital outputs in variable volume mode? And even if that is so, does it come into play only when the volume slider goes past 85% ish? If so, this will not be heard if the Port unit is at say 70% volume with the downstream amp delivering more gain to compensate?

Is this limiting the same as was supposed to have been done in Connects some years ago?

jgatie

The $2 Port power supplies can backwards infiltrate the mains supply with electrical noise. A mid price low voltage linear power supply will cost 100% over the Port. I’ve gone to some lengths in getting best possible fidelity from my Connect, proportionate to it’s cost. I have achieved this by using an MCRU mains lead into a six way Iso-Tex mains block, connected with an even a higher grade MCRU cable to a new noise filtered un-switched power socket outlet. All-in cost for this, taking 1/6 of the cost for the shared six-way mains block and MCRU final connection cable and the full the cost of MCRU mains cable to the Connect is around £200, (lower than to upgrade the Port). The end result has been outstanding, the Port simply isn't in the same league. Said enough now to rattle the usual cages.

 

 

And of course you have conducted a rigorous, level matched, double blind test to prove your findings (and I bet this rattles you far more than you have rattled us)? 

 

F
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I did experiment with a new Dac last week. It was a Beresford Caiman Seg. That really opened the sound of the port up.

Don’t you think that points to your DAC(s) as being the source of the ‘problem’, such as it is?

 

However the Bass was a little too tame for me.

Again, that sounds like the DAC.

I’m confused. One minute a DAC “opened the sound up”, the next it’s “lifeless”. 
  
 

I have no idea.  At this stage I had already sold my Connect so couldn’t compare how the Connect would have sounded with it. The Beresford is famed for throwing  a really wide soundstage. Even with the Beresford the Port still did not sound as good as the connect. I would have been spending upwards of £560 & still not be happy. 
This thread is here to help others who may be in the same position as me. I can’t explain how two digital sources can sound so different but they most certainly do & I am not the only one saying this. All I can trust is my ears & my gear. I know confirmation Bias is a well known phenomenon but it is also a great way to silence anyone who may come here with an opinion on sound. 
I thank you for the time you have spent helping me out here Ratty but I am now back where I started at the beginning of this thread & I couldn’t be happier. Considerably better off financially ( saving money on the Port & buying the end of line connect) & with a sound that I (be it subjectively or not) that I am really happy with. 
 

 
K

Is it not as simple a solution as Sonos disabling EQ in variable mode on digital outputs, along with whatever DSP sauce has been added in that mode? With digital outputs to be used with a DAC equipped downstream kit, which will almost certainly have wider ranging tone control/filters that can be used instead. Then the only difference between fixed and variable digital outs will be what is suggested by those descriptions, with variable to be used by those needing the Sonos app volume controls. If fixed can then be transparent, so can variable surely.

Those wanting to use onboard EQ will get it when analog outputs are used. I found these outputs on my Connect to be as good as I could hear back in 2011 in comparison to external DACs that cost many times the price of the Connect, and even if DAC tech has not progressed since then, the Port is very unlikely to have been equipped with a DAC that is audible less capable than the one in my 2011 Connects. Reviews I have read suggest that the Port sounds the same as Connect when analog outputs are used - no surprise there.

And in my case, since my kit downstream of the Connect has tone controls, I leave Sonos EQ in flat condition even using analog outputs.

F
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 Soft-knee limiting is common, in order to avoid hard clipping in signals which could otherwise be driven above Full Scale by EQ etc.

 

Will this limiting come into play where the EQ is set to flat, for digital outputs in variable volume mode? And even if that is so, does it come into play only when the volume slider goes past 85% ish? If so, this will not be heard if the Port unit is at say 70% volume with the downstream amp delivering more gain to compensate?

Is this limiting the same as was supposed to have been done in Connects some years 
jgatie

Glad I checked here.  Saw the couple reviews saying the newer, more expensive kit was worse.  It may be only slightly worse, or barely noticeable, if you’re willing to give up variable line out.  But why pay more for slightly worse?  

 

Opted for a gen 2 connect.  But if someone tries the fixed line out and finds it solves the problem, I’ll be ordering a port.

 

Fixed line-out is not affected, nor is the analog out (either fixed or variable).  Only the variable digital outs have the problem.  

F
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I think the reviewer was implying that this limiting seems to be more aggressive in the Port. That would echo my own findings. Particularly with it making streams from 6 music sound almost the same as a Tidal or Apple Music stream.

 

R

I have ordered a port. Going to connect it via coax digitally. Update to follow, fingers crossed.

jgatie

Indeed ratty.  Also, why people pay so much for a DAC that so obviously colors the sound is puzzling.  Shouldn’t a high quality DAC be transparent to the source?  And If one prefers their sound colored, wouldn’t a digital equalizer be a far more practical solution than a DAC?

D
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Further to being cross-examined over the tiny button next to the volume slider on S2, I confess that you are right, the button exists, but is not for the purpose of releasing the volume slider. I have my iPad in front of me now playing Pachelbel Adagio in landscape orientation. The volume slider moves and is presently at maximum position. I’m now going to Settings… System… Select the Room… Volume limit and reset this to maximum allowed volume. Now moving back to Room playing Pachelbel the volume slider is still fully to the right. There is a little symbol that looks like a TV screen which I have referred to as being a button. Pressing this a pop-up displays the track now playing and the room setting. I have now realised that volume limits can be made to suit individual room settings. I have not found a way to immobilise the volume slider as is the default for S1 for using the digital output, which I find annoying having only 2 locations in use.

 

 

 

F
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Hi Ratty, hope all is good?

Received my Port today plugged it in, sat down & felt underwhelmed. The sound just didn’t seem as engaging as the connect. As a comparison here is what I did. 
 

I had my connect plugged in via coax & optical both going to my DAC. Often did a quick A-B test between these & there is no audible difference between the two connections.

Plugged the coax into the Port & left the Connect wired with the Optical.

Been switching between the Port & the Connect & there is quite a difference between the two even running through the DAC. Had these set up as a group & the volume set to the exact same level in variable mode. 

The Port has a much narrower soundstage compared to the connect, sounds a lot more ‘boxy’. 

Surely the Port is just throwing out 0&1’s?

How can this be possible?

Definitely there. Had my son switching between the two & not telling me. Can pick out the Connect & The Port every time! 
 

Also, plugged the Coax back into the connect & no difference between the Optical & Coax there. 
When I’m paying £280 for a inferior product to the one I’ve already got it kind of sticks in the craw.

Especially as this is pretty much been forced upon me. 

Any thoughts? You seem like a guy who knows about such things. 

jgatie

What audiophile uses an external DAC with the variable volume setting?

L

Aside from the sound being better/worse than the Connect - does the Port offer any performance gains?

I have one of the old Connect/Zone Player units (stuck on S1) and with Spotify Connect it’s not always been that great  - sometimes it refuses to start playing or randomly stops.

I do realise that this is mostly likely network based issues...but just wondering if the much newer chipset of the Port was any better at handling such things.

I’m not very keen to drop £££ on a new Port, although the Airplay functionality does look quite handy.

Edit  - I’m on wired network, not wifi. 

 

 

 

K

Ironically, and having extensively used a USD 2000 external DAC in the past that weighed more than most amps, all of this seems to say that one may as well use the Connect and Port via their analog outputs. I have not found any differences employing said DAC or that in a high end Marantz SACD player, compared to analog outs from my two 2011 make Connects, back in the day when I was evaluating them/Sonos as a replacement for these bits of “HiFi” kit.

Sources ranged from lossless CD rips as well as iTunes lossy AAC downloads, and speakers ranged from Harbeths to Quads, with high powered Quad amplification a constant. The Connect did the job just as well, for much less, offering a lot more convenience via playlists, and access to a lot more music.

And today, Echo Show units wired to line in jacks on Connect/Connect Amps do just as well, sourcing lossless transcoded CD rips from a local NAS on a Raspberry and from Amazon/Apple Music.

K

What audiophile uses an external DAC with the variable volume setting?

One that needs the volume control on the Sonos app to work?

But, as I have said in another post that has just been red flagged although it endorses Sonos quality, my experience suggests dumping external DACs, and using Connect analog outputs, using EQ to accommodate any room acoustics or speaker placement issues - in which case this fixed v variable thing is moot.

F
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Indeed ratty.  Also, why people pay so much for a DAC that so obviously colors the sound is puzzling.  Shouldn’t a high quality DAC be transparent to the source?  And If one prefers their sound colored, wouldn’t a digital equalizer be a far more practical solution than a DAC?

If you want to listen to what the Port chucks out of its analogue outs be my guest. I most certainly don’t & neither does anyone who has actually sat down & reviewed this product seriously.

Anyone who comes on to these forums with anything negative to say about these products is instantly dismissed as some kind of audiophile purist. All I want is for the product that I am pretty much being forced to upgrade to be at least equal or better than the last. Not too much to ask when you are having to shell out £280 now is it? 

I can see that I am not going to get anywhere in this  discussion so I am going to leave the last words to someone else. 
 

Thanks again to all that have helped along the way. 

F
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I use variable volume on the connect at the moment. I use the coaxial out to my DAC/NAD then use the analogue outs to my Sub. Set the volume of the Nad to about ¾ & then use the volume control on the app. Works really well. I thought there might be a slight delay when streaming through the DAC but it syncs with the sub beautifully. I know technically I get a ‘bit perfect’ output in fixed mode but that would discount me using the Sub in this way. 

jgatie

What audiophile uses an external DAC with the variable volume setting?

One that needs the volume control on the Sonos app to work?

But, as I have said in another post that has just been red flagged although it endorses Sonos quality, my experience suggests dumping external DACs, and using Connect analog outputs, using EQ to accommodate any room acoustics or speaker placement issues - in which case this fixed v variable thing is moot.

 

My question was rhetorical.  I just find it strange that audiophile circles who  preach bit-perfect would immediate switch it off for convenience.  Also, I mention in another thread that a reviewer negated all objective testing when they switched off Fixed volume to fiddle with the equalizer.  In addition to the subtle effects stated above, Variable volume means volume matching now comes into play, and we all know how that affects objective listening.

ratty

If it were me, I'd probably have found a way to use the preamp out on the NAD to feed the sub, but your current arrangement should work fine with the Port. 

Most DACs won't introduce any perceptible delay. They don't require buffering the same way as a network device. 

B
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Hey ratty.

I’m isolating at the moment so no helpers to do blind testing unfortunately. I was trying to get around that by splitting my listening sessions up and being repetitive with sections. Also varying speaker and headphone outputs. 

Good point on the Arcam inputs, I was using the (as labelled) Blu-ray and Personal Video Recorder inputs. Will ask them if there are any hardware/software differences between the two. Physically hot-swapping the patch cables in the same input coax channel would be ‘purer’ approach. I didn’t do it this time round for the ease of source switching via the remote as opposed to crawling around constantly behind the rack.

Agree it doesn’t make sense that a pure bitstream should ‘sound’ different between two devices if all Connect/Port does it pass through to the DAC on the Arcam in either case. I’m convinced I did hear qualitative differences however. 

Maybe the only true test would be as you say capturing the analogue output to speakers and comparing those waveforms? Maybe run a cable from headphone out to computer input and record to something like Audacity to compare waveforms?

Something hinky going on either way. 

K

 

My question was rhetorical. 

I know; but my reply was for the benefit of others, who may not see that the word audiophile covers a wide range of behaviours, not all of which are extreme -  extreme like some that will disdain EQ or Tone controls because these “corrupt” the purity of their signal, not realising that these are needed to compensate to some extent for the mess that their rooms make of the sound heard when poorly placed speakers interact with the room acoustics to make a hash of the sound delivered from these speakers even when fed their “uncorrupted” signals.

jgatie

My question was rhetorical. 

I know; but my reply was for the benefit of others, who may not see that the word audiophile covers a wide range of behaviours, not all of which are extreme -  extreme like some that will disdain EQ or Tone controls because these “corrupt” the purity of their signal, not realising that these are needed to compensate to some extent for the mess that their rooms make of the sound heard when poorly placed speakers interact with the room acoustics to make a hash of the sound delivered from these speakers even when fed their “uncorrupted” signals.

 

All well and good, except a subjective reviewer should specifically mention these factors, thus removing anything definitive about their review.  But we all know pigs will fly before that happens.

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