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anybody replaced their Connect with a Port?

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ratty

Presumably my current set up would be a more hifi sound than the Sonos Amp? Which is the other option. 

Different. The NAD 3020 had a ‘classic’ sound back in the day, which was hugely popular. Only you can be the judge really. You could always get an Amp from Sonos and, if you don’t like it, return it and buy the Port instead.

buzz

Goodness of sound is in the ear of the listener -- and everyone’s opinion is correct -- for them.

I know that the 3020 has been very popular, but it’s not on my ‘A’ list.

AMP will have a different “feel” (great technical term!) than the 3020. Better or worse is up to you.

ratty

Why then is this not done for Fixed volume digital outputs? Is Variable volume at 100% with flat EQ not the exact equivalent of Fixed volume? Or is it done assuming that EQ will be used in the former case even when it is not actually being used?

Fixed is a straight transfer from the decoder, bit-perfect. Variable runs the risk that EQ could push samples above Full Scale and hence into clipping.

In the old days of ZP80 it was assumed -- and proven if I recall -- that Variable/100%/flat-EQ was identical to Fixed, i.e. bit perfect. If EQ ran the risk of pushing the signal into clipping it must have been defeated in a progressive and gentle fashion.

Based on the Sonos comments in the TechHive review it sounds like they took a different design approach with Port, possibly driven in substantial part by the needs of the installer community. On the face of it Variable is geared more towards their needs and Fixed to audiophiles. 

T
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Agreed. I use varable output when playing with rest of sonus system and fixed when using as standalone hifi source. It is not a deal breaker but as clean as possible digital variable output from Connect/Port would be more convenient. As soon as you switch to analog then the sound is being processed in any system but for a device that is connected to hifi i just want to use it as a transport and the sound as clean and natural as possible. A more processed sound may well make sense playing through Sonos speakers but not hifi.  The Port/Connect is designed to connect to hifi so the question is what are hifi users looking for. Arguably if hifi is your rabbit hole then you are not going to be looking at Sonos. But Sonos has so many great qualities it would just be nice if they designed a hifi connection product with what hifi users are looking for and I would upgrade tomorrow. .  

ratty

The TT will require a phono pre-amp, so you could certainly use the NAD’s for that. You could pull the jumpers on the back and take the pre-amp out from there. That feels a bit more elegant than using the Tape Out.

ratty

Yes, apologies. I just looked back over the thread and noticed your comments about the analog out.

I’m wary of confirmation bias, but having removed the DAC from the path between my Port and a Schiit head amp I suspect my Senny HD650s may be sounding a tad more ‘dynamic’. I’d had to use variable volume on the digital out on account of ergonomics and occasional EQ tweaks. Time will tell I guess...

C

I found this thread just after doing exactly what Finbow did - the last part, anyway. I’d never got as far as ordering a Port but I’d been wondering whether to replace my Gen1 Connect.  Through a Meridian Director DAC I’ve been very happy with the sound it makes: width, depth, bottom, scale - it just sounds convincing and involving.  And I’d read the same discouraging reviews of the Port, which made me hesitate to simply trade up, even at 30 percent off.

I could continue with S1, which Sonos made me install last night, but the rest of my system is all S2-compatible, Then I remembered that I got this Connect as an end-of-line bargain from Richer Sounds, so I looked to see what they still had Gen2 Connects - and, well, you know the rest.  Feels like a result, in that I (should) get to keep what I enjoy in the old Connect, but still have access to the forthcoming goodies of S2 - whatever they turn out to be.

Meanwhile, thanks for documenting your own experiences here so helpfully.

K

 

 

And of course you have conducted a rigorous, level matched, double blind test to prove your findings 

 

I have given up asking.

jgatie

Neither link goes anywhere except to the top of this page.  InSided sucks.  But I’ll take your “paraphrasing” comment as an admission that I never said it was impossible (because I know I didn’t).   

 

As to your quote - At fixed output, it is most certainly bit-perfect.  If you were talking about variable output, well then by definition it is not bit-perfect, and thus is open to all sorts of updates.  I apologize for assuming you were speaking about fixed output, as I have repeatedly said in this and other threads that the Variable setting tosses all definitive,objective comparisons out the window.  Why you would think I was talking about an output that is by very definition not bit-perfect when I mentioned something being bit-perfect is puzzling.  

 

B
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Update: I’m swinging back to neutral/minimal difference between the Port and Connect (at least over digital connection).

Arcam confirmed there’s no practical difference in hardware of software between the two inputs I was using. I tried repeating my test protocol, swapping the input channels I was using to rule out minor differences. That second phase of testing was much less convincing. I swapped back and went a third round and found myself much less able to discern material differences. 

Whilst I think that there must be generational differences between the units that may affect timing, clock or jitter, I’m less convinced after a week’s worth of listening that it’s practically discernible. I also twigged that there’s one more variable, the Connect is plugged into a mains conditioner/anti-surge power strip whereas for test setup, I’d just plugged the Port into a spare wall socket. I’m not opening up that can of worms, but it's another factor.

I think on balance, if there is a difference I can’t hear it and the future proofing of Port offsets that.

ratty

Good to hear. Perhaps you found yourself listening to the music and forgot about the kit. :wink:

T
Userlevel 2

Really enjoying streaming again from Qobuz now I have swapped the Connect for the Port. The CDs from my NAS were always spot on, now all is good.

 

I use the digital output through Arcam rDAC into Quad pre/power into B&W 805s - magical!!

 

The Sonos app controls everything.  Next step is to improve the power supplies. First for Port and then for amps. 

 

Totally blown away by the great sound quality now!

F
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You have done exactly the right thing. The Connect from Richer Sounds made me realise that I had I was simply settling for the sound from the Port. The minute I plugged in the Connect it was like welcoming back an old friend. I couldn’t pack the Port back up fast enough!! Only issue is it doesn’t look as nice perched on my bookshelf as the Port. 

D
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Updating my earlier comments concerning Sonos support finding a solution to reinstate my Boost and Connect as a separate system under S1. Giving credit where it is due, the problem was solved over a further Sonos chat session this morning. On this occasion another support team member took over the transcript and the problem was sorted fairly quickly using an alternative approach. I felt like giving this a mention because I have been openly critical recently on this forum, concerning my dissatisfaction with the Port. Now that my S1 set-up has been restored I feel in a joyous mood, as I’m able to return the Port finally back to port. To me the S1 App interface appears clearer and has a default fixed output when connecting to digital. The S2 App allows variable output over digital, this can be made fixed as an option, however I found this too easy to revert back to the volume control slider by touching a tiny button next to this inadvertently. I also did not like the background colour changing to suit the album art covers in my music library, often reverting to a dirty brown, enough said about that though. That’s all folks.

 

 

ratty

The S2 App allows variable output over digital, this can be made fixed as an option, however I found this too easy to revert back to the volume control slider by touching a tiny button next to this inadvertently.

I’ve no idea what this means. A tiny button next to the volume slider? There is no tiny button on Now Playing which would switch Fixed Volume to Variable. On the left there’s Mute; on the right the rooms picker for grouping. In the middle, just a dead bar saying “Fixed Volume”.

 

ratty

This is perhaps no longer relevant to you but:

 

Just further commenting on the quality of the Power Supply for the Port. Why is this not visibly labeled   with the output specs and country of origin (we know where from anyway)?

It is. 12V 1A. China.

 

The 13 Amp connector does not appear to have a replaceable fuse either.

For a SMPS of that rating a replaceable fuse has to be a rarity. I’ve yet to meet a ‘wall wart’ USB charger with one, and they’re typically rated at up to 12W output for just a single port, with multi-port units commonplace.

 

I discovered tiny printing etched on the connector end but is too small to read.

See above.

 

This is the worst power supply that I have encountered on an electrical product to date. The only reason for providing a low voltage power supply is that electrical products can be cheaply made overseas with no H&S risk and can be supplied worldwide with a country specific adapter like this. 

Perhaps that’s a factor, but it also avoids the proximity of mains voltage to sensitive audio parts. There are several respected audio vendors I can immediately think of who use outboard PSUs. It's not as if the demands placed on a device like Port require reserves of transient power.

 

F
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Hi All,

Just wanted to update - I took Finbow’s advice, I returned my Port to Sonos, and was able to purchase a brand new factory sealed Generation 2 Connect. I found it online at World Wide Stereo in PA. There are also some brand new ones as well as used Generation 2 Connects on Ebay (just be sure they are Gen 2 before purchase). I will report back once I hook it up, but I feel much better about this plan of action, so thanks so much for the advice!

Hope you think you made the right call. Absolutely no regrets here! 

F
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How are they supposed to “update” something that is already bit-perfect to the source?  

No idea. The issue must be the coax output of the Port then. The Port is putting out a much more ‘compressed’ sound somehow. It’s just a ‘lifeless’ representation. The Connect has a more ‘real’ & ‘live feel to it. A great example is it’s harder to hear the difference between a Digital radio stream & music streamed from Apple Music on the Port. You can easily tell the difference on the Connect.  Either way. Not my problem now. I am not the first to report this issue & I’m pretty sure sure I won’t be the last.  Thankfully Sonos has a fantastic returns policy. 

B
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Really interesting thread @Finbow and @ratty.

I ordered a couple of Ports to replace my two Connect units and I’ve just spent a couple of days A/B testing Connect vs Port. I was really interested to hear them side by side. 

I use the Connect units to stream my ripped-from-CD FLAC collection off a PC to a couple of hifi system setups: one in my office (Marantz NR1504 feeding B&W 685 S2s on stands) and my main listening system in lounge. (Arcam AVR450 feeding bi-wired Mordaunt Short Mezzo 6 floor standers).

I saw the WhatHifi review after I’d placed the order but wanted to try and keep an open mind so went pretty hardcore on my test process.

  • I wired both Connect and Port using the coax digital out into two separate but equivalent inputs on the Arcam.
  • Both inputs were configured in amp to precisely the same neutral settings, no processing or dynamic stuff  applied.
  • Fixed level output on both Sonos units. No EQ applied anywhere.
  • Source files were all CDs ripped to FLAC.
  • I grouped the Port vs Connect ‘rooms’ into one and ran the Sonos playlist.
  • Listened both live through speakers, but also repeated up using a semi-decent pair of over-the-ear headphones plugged straight into amp.
  • I’d identify sections of tracks with interesting stuff going on in them and then switch sources on the amp to change between Port vs Connect, listening in parallel with fast switching and then repeating longer sections in serial.
  • I took breaks between listening sessions to avoid ear fatigue.
  • Where I had impression of one source being 'better', I also tried taking the volume down 1db or 2db on that source to compensate for possible simple volume mis-perception. 

 

Test notes

My audition tracks are long standing, really familiar pieces that I’ve used over the years to test systems out. They’re well engineered (in some cases Grammy winning), good tests of articulation, control, presence, bass handling and musicality.

  1. Muse - Reapers
    Section 2:38 to 3:38. The solo is noisy with a lot of powerful stuff going on. Port sounded woolier, less articulate and in control.
  2. Bomb the Bass - Switching Channels
    This is a busy, bass heavy, rhythmical track with a lot of complex production.
    Section 0:21 to about 0:30, the ratchet sound in left ear. Connect sounds brighter, more presence than Port. 
    Section 3:50 to end, listen to articulation of the guitar lead, much cleaner and resolved on Connect.
  3. Tears for Fears - Woman in Chains
    Section 1:47 - 2:20, listen to the pizzicato synth sounds in centre right background. Complex, musical, light needs articulation
  4. Tears for Fears - Badman's Song
    Section 5:03 - 6:23. Steel guitar twang at 5:05. Bass guitar melody from 5:20 onwards has body and articulation. Bass licks at 6:23 and 6:35. Separation, articulation, control.
  5. Brian Culbertson - Get it On (Live from the Inside)
    Organ break Section 3.07 - 3:45 listen for articulation of brass centre left and the organ not sounding woolly it’s tough as it’s so rounded. Trombone break 3:45 - 4:14. Listen for the articulation of the second guitar in left ear (yes there is one, not the rhythm on right)
  6. Open Up - Leftfield
    Section 0:36 - 1:06, bass line articulation, the rhythm train track chugga is tight (there's a little click on the last 16th beat before the 1 and 3 count that’s clearer on Connect). The reversed gong sample just before the vocal should be clear too.
  7. Are We Really Through - Ray LaMontagne
    Intro, should feel like the guitar is in the room. Alive. Presence. Steel guitar 2:52 to 3:32 should be resonate richly but cleanly.
  8. Shape of my Heart - Sting
    2:19 harmonica solo, listening for the main melody on acoustic guitar underneath, should have enough separation to pick out. Port found this harder and easier to lose it. 

 

My Conclusion

If you’d never heard a Connect, you’d probably be happy with Port. But, for me, the Connect’s ability was demonstrably superior.

There were consistent, subtle and to me important quality differences. The thing that kept coming up for me was a sense of articulation and control. The Connect consistently managed to lift out instrumentation and present the music with more control and separation, particularly with complex pieces. I could pick out more background instrumentation, identify more in the tracks at varying points of the mix. In lighter, sparser tracks it was articulation, space and presence (musicality?) where the Connect always seemed a step above the Port.

A case of older and wiser, newer is not always better it seems.

Now there is the argument that I should accept a small reduction in quality for as yet unspecified S2 future capabilities of Port. I’m not sure I can though, knowing I’m missing out on the final 10% that counts for everything in HiFi and loving music.

It was a disappointing result really and I’m intending to send the Ports back. 

As everything is software these days, maybe there’ll be a second gen Port with improvements. Think I’ll have to hold back my upgrade until then as if it aint broke... 

Footnote

Great music on great HiFi should be cherished. Giving myself the excuse to just sit and really listen was a fabulous exercise. I reconnected with and fell in love all over again with some wonderful tracks. I’d thoroughly recommend a dedicated listening session to anyone looking to fill a few hours these days. Nile Rodgers is right, it might be a trap, but getting lost in music is a wonderful thing and the whole point of investing in HiFi.

 

 

F
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.techhive.com/article/3546333/sonos-port-review.amp.html
 

Updated Port review on Techhive. Now with input from Sonos. Apparently the Port does process the sound differently from the Connect via Digital Out. 

The DSP, according to this source, is designed to adjust for “the different characteristics [of] different recorded content… that impact volume output. The DSP helps to keep it balanced so that it protects the listener’s equipment and ears.”

The workaround is to use the ‘fixed’ output. This may explain why I’m hearing it using variable & others aren’t if they are using fixed. It also explains why I was happy with the Sound from the Port when so switched to ‘fixed’ mode. 

 

F
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Just to update this thread as promised.

Received the amp today & it wasn’t for me I’m afraid.

I found the sound to be way to bright & shrill.

played around with the EQ but couldn’t find the right balance unfortunately. Shame as otherwise a wonderfully engineered bit of kit.

I’m pairing with a pair of a Monitor Audio Rs1’s & a Kef sub. The Monitor Audios are a little on the bright side themselves so I’m just putting it down to bad pairing.

I had the Nad recapped & serviced last year so its functioning as new really & just sounds really warm & much more hifi than the Sonos amp.

interestingly the 20 watt Nad drove my speakers better than the 125w Sonos! 
 

As an aside, absolutely no problem driving the Kef sub. So no idea why so many people are having issues with their 3rd party subs.

just ordered the port instead. 
 

thanks again for all of your input. 

ratty

What I don’t see in your comprehensive description is any mention of blind testing, ideally double blind. The brain moves in mysterious ways, and expectation bias is a very powerful force.

Also, have you confirmed that the Arcam’s two inputs are treated identically internally? Or simply tried swapping the Port and Connect over between the inputs? Is there a separate DAC chip on each input, or a single central one? 

I’ve been assured by Sonos that in Fixed Volume the output of the file decoder is simply shipped out, bit for bit, without any modification whatsoever. Clearly with lossless compression this should exactly match the original 16-bit PCM samples.

I’ve confirmed that in Fixed Volume the lowest byte on the 24-bit S/PDIF is unused, which does rather suggest that there’s been no ‘tampering’ on the journey through the pipeline. Any variation in level would cause the lowest byte to be populated.

What I’ve not been able to do is capture the output and make a full bit-wise comparison with the original file (after decode to WAV/PCM obviously). Maybe a user with the appropriate equipment will volunteer.

 

K

Now with input from Sonos. Apparently the Port does process the sound differently from the Connect via Digital Out. 

The DSP, according to this source, is designed to adjust for “the different characteristics [of] different recorded content… that impact volume output. The DSP helps to keep it balanced so that it protects the listener’s equipment and ears.”

The workaround is to use the ‘fixed’ output. This may explain why I’m hearing it using variable & others aren’t if they are using fixed. It also explains why I was happy with the Sound from the Port when so switched to ‘fixed’ mode. 

 

I am not sure how credible this attribute is, including the claim that Sonos have owned up to it. 

What is also strange is the claim that this issue arises only where the digital outputs are concerned, and is not there with analog outputs where the differences between Connect and Port are said to vanish.

Why Sonos would mess around with digital outputs but leave analog outputs untouched is a mystery.

F
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Totally appreciate what you are saying & it could be I guess but the difference is really marked to my ears. Tried the analogue outs & the Port definitely wins that battle. I’ve even tried variable out & setting the volume on the connect slightly lower. It’s space & separation that’s the difference. It’s like I’m listening to a more compressed version of the track. There are times that I forget I’m doing the test & just got lost in the music. Every time that happens without fail I’m listening to the connect, it’s just more ‘open’. Going to use the port for a few more weeks & not listen to the connect. I may just get used to the sound of it? Might just be that I’m so used to the connect sound that the Port sounds ‘alien’. Who knows?! 

F
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I am convinced that the last update made a difference to the sound quality. Wether that was intentional or wether It just rebooted the device it certainly seemed to have an effect. 
As I said in one of my earlier posts. I am happy with the Port myself also. Although I feel that the £280 I paid is a much fairer price than the simply ridiculous £399! 
looking forward to the S2 updated now. 

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