This is offered for your system management and senior development staff, please forward
I have had SONOS installed in our home (a $15K system) for 4+ years and it works and sounds great, but.... You keep updating your app to add features and "correct bugs". You are driving users nuts, it's a sound system, not a critical heart monitor or sophisticated pc. We have 2 i-phones, 2-ipads and a Mac. Everytime you update, we can't turn the system on or off. and the update takes some time. First, if you are going to update, advise the user that an update is available and leave system control capability available until the update is complete. Organize your updates so they are made periodically, like every 3-4 months rather than as some developer gets a wild hair. Test your systems before released, this last round had 3, 4,... who knows how many updates to fix bugs.
If you are not a teenager, are gainfully employed, have kids, are not independently wealthy, are over 60 or only moderately technically sophisticated, a smooth and reliable update process with cool new features that are better described would be a giant step toward better customer satisfaction. Apple does it pretty well, so can SONOS.
This topic has been closed for further comments. You can use the search bar to find a similar topic, or create a new one by clicking Create Topic at the top of the page.
Page 1 / 2
Userlevel 7
+26
Let's stay on topic and if possible, curtail the wild conjecture a bit, it tends to spark a fire in each other that leads to some unpleasant discussion.
I've edited the post above a bit to remove the personal attacks. We will close this thread down if it can't be civil.
Also, as a Sonos representative, let me say that we have never, and will not sell your data, as we say in our privacy policy, linked above. That's just not something we'd do. While we have brought a few more updates than in the past, they each have had a purpose and often included new features or the backbone for those features. Like with the most recent update, that added AirPlay 2 and support for our newest product.
It's more important that if your system regularly has issues after an update, that you work with one of our technicians to investigate that. There shouldn't be any network issues as a result of a Sonos update. And if there is, we can help find out why. Feel free to give us a call on our support line if you have any trouble or questions.
I've edited the post above a bit to remove the personal attacks. We will close this thread down if it can't be civil.
Also, as a Sonos representative, let me say that we have never, and will not sell your data, as we say in our privacy policy, linked above. That's just not something we'd do. While we have brought a few more updates than in the past, they each have had a purpose and often included new features or the backbone for those features. Like with the most recent update, that added AirPlay 2 and support for our newest product.
It's more important that if your system regularly has issues after an update, that you work with one of our technicians to investigate that. There shouldn't be any network issues as a result of a Sonos update. And if there is, we can help find out why. Feel free to give us a call on our support line if you have any trouble or questions.
No it isn't a function of people asking for features. This is part of the plan to expand Sonos into a 'platform' so they can gather more information about users and sell it. This of course is the 'story of the day' when it comes to IPOs. Sonos was a audio hardware vendor with lame revenues. So instead of improving they're execution, they decided make money by spying on people.
Stick to the facts, folks.
No it isn't a function of people asking for features. This is part of the plan to expand Sonos into a 'platform' so they can gather more information about users and sell it. This of course is the 'story of the day' when it comes to IPOs. Sonos was a audio hardware vendor with lame revenues. So instead of improving they're execution, they decided make money by spying on people.
https://www.sonos.com/en-us/legal/privacy
Sonos respects your privacy and your rights to control your personal data. Our guiding principles are simple. We will be transparent about what data we’re collecting and why. We will protect your data as though it is sacred. And we do not and will not sell your data to third parties.
Userlevel 1
No it isn't a function of people asking for features. This is part of the plan to expand Sonos into a 'platform' so they can gather more information about users and sell it. This of course is the 'story of the day' when it comes to IPOs. Sonos was a audio hardware vendor with lame revenues. So instead of improving they're execution, they decided make money by spying on people.
Userlevel 7
+22
They can be frequent if you are on the Beta release program, check to see if that is your issue and use your controller to leave it and the updates will be much less frequent.
"updates happen every few days sometimes"?
I don't see these many updates...
I don't see these many updates...
I understand the need to update software. We want the new features and so on but it feels like updates happen every few days sometimes. This is not essential to the users. We can wait a couple of weeks surely for new features.
On top of the constant requests to update, if you don’t, you get limited functionality. Like other users, I just want to turn my tv on or stream live radio while I’m doing the dishes. I REALLY don’t want to wait five minutes while yet another update takes place.
Also, why can’t essential updates take place ‘in the background’? Why does the whole sound system have to stop to update?
I love Sonos for what it can do BUT this is a major gripe and inconvenience.
To those saying just turn off auto updates, that’s fine although I don’t seem to have that option. Maybe I need to update the app first? :S
On top of the constant requests to update, if you don’t, you get limited functionality. Like other users, I just want to turn my tv on or stream live radio while I’m doing the dishes. I REALLY don’t want to wait five minutes while yet another update takes place.
Also, why can’t essential updates take place ‘in the background’? Why does the whole sound system have to stop to update?
I love Sonos for what it can do BUT this is a major gripe and inconvenience.
To those saying just turn off auto updates, that’s fine although I don’t seem to have that option. Maybe I need to update the app first? :S
In the case of Apple, I look at their frequent updates through a FMEA lens. Both the hacking possibilities/attraction of hackers to OSX/iOS and possible effects of hacking on my bank balances are degrees of magnitude higher than for my Sonos system. So while their updates are just as irritating, I accept that as a price to pay to hopefully stay safe. I have no such concerns with Sonos. Worst case, music will stop playing. I have simple back ups for that worst case.
As far as OSX updates that are the ones that matter to me, a Mac+Android user, UI changes happen in a scheduled manner, annually. Many of these are just as useless as the Sonos ones, but at least it is just an annual affair, usually in July.
As far as OSX updates that are the ones that matter to me, a Mac+Android user, UI changes happen in a scheduled manner, annually. Many of these are just as useless as the Sonos ones, but at least it is just an annual affair, usually in July.
Apple is by far more frequent than Sonos in terms of updates....
Userlevel 7
+22
I disagree with frequent updates to Sonos.
Oh, it absolutely applies. The world has largely moved on from the bad old days of having to meet a fixed release date because your software ships on physical media. And thankfully many software developers have moved on from nasty "big bang" infrequent waterfall processes to being able to ship software regularly (weekly/daily/hourly) and in small increments. Now whether that means that Sonos have to ship new stuff every single week...
There are a couple of things worth remembering here:
1. Changing UI every day confuses users and should be done infrequently, but most of the changes to Sonos are probably bug fixes and performance tweaks that the average user doesn't notice. The ability to ship these as soon as they're ready is a good thing. If you build software, you want to have options.
2. There's still an element of friction in getting updates out, not least because users are involved in accepting/applying updates (the desktop app could probably auto-update on launch though), so it's not the same thing as just pushing code out to a server several times a day like major e-commerce companies do.
"Modern agile rapid release schedules" - that is an impressive phrase indeed, though I still question if it applies to a very slowly evolving home audio system. I do see the word "schedules" in it, still defined I find as "a plan for carrying out a process or procedure, giving lists of intended events and times." Not quite how Sonos releases its updates, is it?
And if doing this in the manner it is done by Sonos is needed to attract new customers, Sonos is in more trouble than we think.
I believe I read here about Amazon as some one that also does this. I have no clue - because Amazon does not ask me to do what Sonos does, for every release. Updates happen on my Echo/Dot devices in the background and in six months of use, I have never had to do anything or even notice that happening. So if Sonos is said to follow the Amazon lead in these modern practices, they need to provide all of the Amazon delivery mechanism as well.
The cool thing about Sonos is how easily it allows access to music. It is hard to keep doing cool changes to that all the time; it ends up being frenetic noise, with the cool thing attempts in dribbles and drabbles and fixes to fix the uncool things about the cool additions in another wave of dribbles.
I almost agree with you here. I'd have been happy with the Sonos system I bought years ago staying that way. For me, the most valuable improvement in the life of my system has been the addition of "favourites" (though if Sonos ever get close to finishing them, the "My Sonos" and "ephemeral-by-default queue" changes could be pretty cool). Other than addressing the fixed navigation bar and a few visual design issues on mobile, many of the recent changes have been bug fixes and hidden improvements. Sonos have actually been pretty restrained about making major changes to the UI except with infrequent major release. Bugs, which are inevitable, have a tendency of not respecting release schedules. Stability is a priority, and being able to push bug fixes quickly is a must.
It's also important to remember that new features aren't just for the benefit of existing users (Sonos already have our money, though they want us to expand our speaker collection), but to make the system more attractive to new customers. Unreleased code has no value, and there's a clear incentive for Sonos to adopt modern agile rapid release schedules.
Userlevel 7
+22
I'd be happy with optional updates that aren't essential to Sonos operation and mandatory updates that are essential.
Having the "No update" option that might leave a system with no access to on-line services might make some folks happy too.
Having the "No update" option that might leave a system with no access to on-line services might make some folks happy too.
I do recognise that the churn that Sonos indulges in for the most part via its updates - black to white and back to black is a classic example - is a requirement of its target market that is easily and quickly bored with the UI. I would be as happy with annual updates as with quarterly for a home audio system. But it seems to me that there can be a via media between those in the Sonos market such as I, and those easily bored that yearn for the next cool thing, though I don't have too many hopes in that direction.
Imagine for a second that Sonos actually fix an issue that affects you. Or they add a cool new feature. Now imagine that Sonos have an update process that involves user action to receive those updates (assuming you don't have auto-update enabled). Would you want to wait up to three months for the opportunity to get the new code? Having a system that's always evolving is one of the cool things about Sonos (or it was until they messed up the queue / My Sonos / insert own hated change here).
Yes, I would be quite happy to wait the maximum of three months for any "cool" feature, and even more - it's just a home audio system for heaven's sake and stability is more important for music enjoyment than cool features even every quarter, given also a Sonos record for not having released anything truly cool more than once a year. If that. For which I don't blame them, this isn't a fashion accessory or cutting edge tech at its meaningful core to allow scope for that. And the more often there are releases, the more often there will be the inevitable bug fix releases.
The cool thing about Sonos is how easily it allows access to music. It is hard to keep doing cool changes to that all the time; it ends up being frenetic noise, with the cool thing attempts in dribbles and drabbles and fixes to fix the uncool things about the cool additions in another wave of dribbles.
I have no personal stake in the matter; I have learnt and incorporated all the tricks needed for painless Sonos upgrades. But many users have not, as is seen by the storm of complaints about broken systems after every upgrade. And I have also received no real value from upgrades since 2011, over what I can count on the fingers of one hand. Which is fine - it is JUST a music system and the kicks I get from it are from the music.
The truly cool thing for me has been being able to move from CDs/Vinyl to NAS, then to digital downloads to add to the NAS, and then to streaming services with libraries that are much more larger than a local NAS. And perhaps, once it matures, to voice control. All of which Sonos has enabled, although for voice I am still waiting for the integration to be released six months down the line from the Alexa release in India. All else that is cool from Sonos is largely noise, with the exception of True Play.
Why exactly? For what is just a home audio system? And where do you draw the line? Is daily at midnight the ideal to aim for then?
Imagine for a second that Sonos actually fix an issue that affects you. Or they add a cool new feature. Now imagine that Sonos have an update process that involves user action to receive those updates (assuming you don't have auto-update enabled). Would you want to wait up to three months for the opportunity to get the new code? Having a system that's always evolving is one of the cool things about Sonos (or it was until they messed up the queue / My Sonos / insert own hated change here).
Look, with software that users have to download, there are practical limits to how frequently you can release (unlike, say Amazon pushing hundreds of changes every week). Unreleased code has no value. Fast turnaround from idea / bug fix to a tested release is way better than the nasty old software lifecycles of the past.
Why exactly? For what is just a home audio system? And where do you draw the line? Is daily at midnight the ideal to aim for then?
Userlevel 7
+22
The complaint of the original poster was to many updates. And your right. You can tdo now off auto updates and not take them all if you don’t want. I’m all for frequent updates but fact is many aren’t and they like to vocally complain about it.
When was the last time we had to take an update? Other than the hassle of a few minutes without music while the Sonos and controllers reboot themselves, I can't remember the last time I had a problem after updating (although it is a risk that Sonos mess something up). Better (ie. "some") release notes would help us make an informed decision.
When the user is involved in the update process, there is a limit to how frequently you can push out updates. And any change introduces risk. But with software, you want to get new code out there, rather than stockpiling release candidates.
Userlevel 7
+22
That means frequent updates and frequent reboots. The reboots are what cause all the problems. People’s networks them get messed up and everyone cry’s that it’s a bad update (when it’s been a highly tested update and the reboot exposed a network issue). So smaller updates more frequently would cause more problems.
Userlevel 7
+20
Exactly that.
This is actually extremely disciplined (it's a technique called "Continuous Delivery"). Pushing regular, small, incremental updates - with a short timeframe from design to development to testing to release - is a sign of a software development team with excellent process.
If people are going to complain either way, my approach would be to do the disciplined thing and not let people drive me away from that. Unless I am too lazy and justifying this by saying: people complain either way. And it isn't as if there are monthly updates either - they seem to be released whenever Sonos feels like releasing them, which points to the lack of discipline in Sonos process management.
But I am repeating myself; if Sonos sees value in the feedback, that has been extracted.
But I am repeating myself; if Sonos sees value in the feedback, that has been extracted.
Page 1 / 2
Enter your username or e-mail address. We'll send you an e-mail with instructions to reset your password.