The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

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N
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I’m going DigiOne Allo.  It’s a raspberry pi server.  Will have a large upfront cost for the software side to run things, but I gain non-proprietary and high res playback.  So I do win something out of it.

What software are you buying for your RPi server?

C
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Can they now, with all the extra memory that will be released? That is the big question, and the basis of what is just as much an existential crisis for them, as this one threatens to be. I have serious doubts that Hi Res will be the saviour.

To clarify to others: the first sentence that seems to be mine in the boxed quote in the preceding post is actually part of a Sonos response; my response to the Sonos one is in the remaining two paragraphs. A full understanding of this very interesting twist is best gained by reading my post preceding.

I think it’s more a question if they want to solve this problem or not. There are ways to do it software / hardware. You could install firmware on older systems which work completely different It seems they choose not to. As for Hi Res , most people these days are used to the sound quality from mobile devices which is poor, partly from the used audio source. A point Neil Young always hammered down that people don’t know anymore how music really sounds because they grew up with low sound quality devices. We had in the past other high quality audio formats which disappeared like .Super Audio CD (SACD) , DVD Audio , PonoMusic ( Neil Young’s project ). If you going to sell devices with a limited lifetime then quality doesn’t matter. Why spend extra money for a soon obsolete product.? If you go the quality route then you make sure that all products keep working and you build on your legacy. All depends what they choose as their future market segment and competition.

K

 

But the whole thing replies on a mobile app (for most of us at least) and how long will that continue to work with legacy items?  I would love them to voice their stance on that too. 

 

@Ryan S  has said that there will be an app dedicated to working with systems being used in legacy system mode - it should not matter if all or only some products in such a system are legacy products.

C
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For beginners (me) : RPI streaming 101 - like using dots with Sonos as described in the first post but you pick the software

https://darko.audio/2020/01/raspberry-pi-audio-streaming-101/

you can get high quality DACs which plug into the Pi bus

K

@chickentender

Are you not seeing  TV lip sync issues for sound coming from the Sonos speakers? Unless your line in is set to uncompressed mode, in which case the question changes to - are you not seeing signal stability in the wirelessly connected Sonos speakers? That is what I found for my TV wired to a Connect; I solved that by ethernet wiring the Sonos speakers needed for piping in sync TV audio around. In your case if the remote Sonos speaker listeners cannot see the TV images, it will not matter. In my case, it is essential that lip sync is achieved everywhere which requires uncompressed mode which requires running wires to the Sonos speakers. 

My other comment is that this is a very customised set up and cannot be a copy/paste thing to a majority of the user base. If one did not have a TV in the mix for example, just a straight multi zone Sonos set up, where does the Node come in? And why is it needed?

Finally, I will challenge the better sound notion if it was not moot. Simply because it is not moot, I will let it slide, although I am happy to discuss it on another thread. It is moot because this thread is about replicating existing Sonos functionality, including Sonos sound quality, so no one here should be interested in that conversation, or interested in Node just to get better quality sound. If they are they can join it on the other thread, because it won't be a short conversation:-).

Smilja

I am going to trade-in my two Play:5s early in March, and I suppose they will be plain dead after walking the (green) mile. I shall see.

Trade Up Program

»And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space, Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.« (›Windmills Of Your Mind‹ [1967]. Music by Michel Legrand ; English lyrics written by Alan & Marilyn Bergman)
K

On a personal level, what I will be exploring now is how to get my Echo Show to play music from my NAS, with album art as the icing on that cake, that can then be served up to Sonos zones. 

 

An update here on success on the quoted front, because at USD 5 a year, this solution is definitely both pragmatic and not advanced. Since I was not completely familiar with Mac security and sharing settings, set up needed lots of handholding from @castalla , and some of the gyrations are posted in the companion advanced thread and can be seen there. There were many more via PM/emails:-).

But the solution that is now up and running is one that is very useful, and not just as a post Sonos Brexit thing. It allows NAS music to be commanded by Alexa to start play and where display equipped Echo devices are present, to also display album art. Neither of which is something any Sonos unit can do on its own today, so this vaults a legacy set up to ahead of the present modern unit/system capability. And post Brexit, this functionality just needs Sonos hardware to work via signal sensing and autoplay via Line In jacks, in otherwise dumb mode.

One needs to download the mymedia app to the computer and point it to the NAS location. It then indexes the tracks in its servers, and serves up, from the NAS files, voice commanded songs, albums, or playlists to Echo devices. The computer does need to remain awake, though not in the music play loop, which is direct from NAS to Echo and thence to Sonos Line In. So at sometime I may look to moving the app to a Raspberry device that can replace the desktop computer for this service. For me, that will be an advanced project.

 

K

 If you going to sell devices with a limited lifetime then quality doesn’t matter. Why spend extra money for a soon obsolete product.?

If you are referring here to sound quality I don’t agree. There is now so much cheap mass manufactured componentry available that excellent sound quality can be obtained, very cheaply, with the right design. Take a look at the pro audio monitor market to see that.

If you are referring to build quality I agree but in a limited way. I have had more hardware issues with more expensive HiFi kit in the past than with cheaper Sonos products, in a similar amount of time. The key to this is being able to reach a scale where the components can be bought in bulk, and therefore cheaply, and where state of the art manufacturing and testing facility costs can be absorbed. These then provide better build quality than what the HiFi makers with their low scales can deliver at higher price points.

What limited lifetimes can make unnecessary is expensive after warranty parts and service support. There is an environmental cost of this approach though, that we don't realise because these costs are not in the purchase prices.

S

 

But the whole thing replies on a mobile app (for most of us at least) and how long will that continue to work with legacy items?  I would love them to voice their stance on that too. 

 

@Ryan S  has said that there will be an app dedicated to working with systems being used in legacy system mode - it should not matter if all or only some products in such a system are legacy products.

 

Thanks Kumar,  that must have been lost in the morass of venting customers as I didn’t see that particular reply. 

 

Would be extremely handy if all these little nuggets were put into an actually helpful info post by @Ryan S.  Seems like all the relevant info is being put in comments and they’re saving the main posts for the PR hot air.

Y

Does anyone know if Roon could be used as a server to send simultaneously to  the legacy and modern networks? I asked this on the main thread but it got lost in the widespread venting. The Roon support site seems to think it can,

 

I can confirm Roon does this. I was achieving multiroom sync on a legacy play 5, 2x zp90 and 2x Sonos ones. A mixture of legacy and more recent units all in sync and controlled directly from Roon. I still use Roon but sold the legacy Sonos units over 6 months ago. 
 

Ah hold on. I just noticed your wording in the question. I am not sure if Roon can stream simultaneously to a future split Sonos system (I the way it is suggested when legacy is kept alongside modern units). The above experience refers to streaming to legacy and modern units that run on the same network. Sorry for any confusion 

C
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@Kumar I meant build quality and comparing for example the current SONOS Amps to the competition.

I have to knock on wood ,I never had any problems with amplifiers is the past. Devices with rubber involved mechanics like CD/DVD players it’s a different story. They don’t age well if not used on a regular basis. :wink: .

chickentender

Personally really don’t think ruminating on trade-up plan particulars, conscionable or no, is useful in this thread. That’s covered ad nauseum elsewhere. (I’ve my own feelings about it and they’re strong, but I can’t connect those feelings to a device.)

K

@Cisume : when I referred to a poorer record of failures, this was without taking into account CD player tray mechanism issues or belt changes for turn-tables; I had failures in solid state amps as well. None in Sonos.

The thing is that modern tech has meant that quality v price is no longer an either/or thing. Get the volume levels high enough, then low price AND high reliability can be achieved if the design is right and the manufacturing strategy is properly executed. Take any JBL portable speaker like a Flip or Charge model as an example.

And where Sonos is concerned their success on this front is precisely why this thread even exists - because their hardware looks to comfortably be able to outlast the software. 

C
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@Cisume : when I referred to a poorer record of failures, this was without taking into account CD player tray mechanism issues or belt changes for turn-tables; I had failures in solid state amps as well. None in Sonos.

The thing is that modern tech has meant that quality v price is no longer an either/or thing. Get the volume levels high enough, then low price AND high reliability can be achieved if the design is right and the manufacturing strategy is properly executed. Take any JBL portable speaker like a Flip or Charge model as an example.

And where Sonos is concerned their success on this front is precisely why this thread even exists - because their hardware looks to comfortably be able to outlast the software. 

I don’t have a complain about SONOS Amps quality. They worked over the years flawlessly. What I tried to say is, if from now on the product life cycle is 5 years, compared with competing products it’s not a good deal and better choices out there.

M

I have a question that I cannot see answered, or if it has been, I’ve missed it (entirely possible).

 

Some time ago on my “legacy” system I lost the ability to stream from my iPhone directly to my system. I the future legacy landscape that is promised, if I add in a new product in ‘legacy’ mode, will I be able to stream with Airplay to the grouped speakers or not?

 

Great thread by the way, best I’ve seen yet. :)

 

Cheers

Simon

K



It’s certainly not a usual Sonos implementation, but the Connect exists for that reason - to interface multiple existing audio setups, so I’m sure it’s not entirely unusual, else the lip-sync issue wouldn't have had so much coverage over the past years already.

And, no, this shouldn’t deteriorate in an SQ discussion

More to the point, where does a Node go if not for a TV in the mix? It can feed the LINE-IN of the Connect directly (analog RCA to analog RCA) and be used as the source for streaming services potentially no longer support by the legacy Connect firmware in the future. Why do this instead of buying a Port?

I have started keeping an eye out ever since I had issues with my TV issues that are recent - I had a TV lying around and I had a balcony with a Connect in it to drive that zone, so I thought it would be a cool idea to get a TV in the balcony! - I have seen more discussions around uncompressed streaming issues for folks using a turntable via Sonos line in. For a TV application, Sonos has, erroneously as I have successfully explained to folks like Ryan, dismissed Connect music stability issues with TV by the short answer: “Connect isn't meant for heavy TV audio streams”. Believe it or not, they actually said that, I have emails archived as proof:-) Anyway…

I wouldn’t say “deteriorate” I would say “digress”. I have had plenty of these conversations with plenty of people here on that little bit:-). Again, anyway…

Why not an Echo Dot instead of a Node then? If all that is being needed is replicating Sonos capability. Depending on its ability to stream from the service of choice of course, at the time the need arises, when the line in jacks on the Connect stop delivering. Or something else in its price range.

Smilja

No strong feelings here, maybe a wee bit melancholic. Parting ways is never easy, but often the right move - particularly when coming events cast their shadows before.

»And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space, Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.« (›Windmills Of Your Mind‹ [1967]. Music by Michel Legrand ; English lyrics written by Alan & Marilyn Bergman)
K

 

I’m currently listening to a Play 5 fed via the line in by a Chromecast Audio. This cost me £30…. . It makes the Port look massively overpriced, IMHO.

Once the signal is in the Sonos environment, it can be used the same as any other line in - e.g. grouped with other speakers, used as the input for another Sonos speaker etc. 

 Luckily for me, I’ve never been interested in having the same thing playing throughout the house (e.g. party mode), so as long as I can listen to  my music wherever I want to, I’ll be happy.

I don't remember the exact chronology, but I think CCA came before Echo; I know I have posts here saying that the CCA makes the Connect pricing look more than absurd for single zone use. I use CC for a TV and Firestick for another, and I happen to prefer the Amazon UI, which also probably why I prefer Echo to CCA.

In my case, I too do not need multi room in the usual manner - I just happen to have a very large central open space that covers the kitchen, dining, living and adjacent balcony. Each a dedicated zone, but grouping often makes sense here, so I will need that to continue. I haven’t tried it extensively, but I have a feeling Echo groups can step in to replace Sonos hardware at its real end of life.

K

@Cisume : now that I think about this 5 years thing more, it seems to me that this is yet another mis-step by Sonos in recent days. What they should have said is that all our hardware has a warranty of 1 year( or 2, if that is what they offer) from the date it is first sold, and we will thereafter provide software updates till the hardware dies.

I can guess at the reason they are scared to say this - there are still modern products that are not far from being legacied, having a memory of 64 mb, that is not much of an improvement over the 32 mb in legacied products, seeing that the latest products have 1024 mb. Now, if all modern products had 1024 mb, saying this would not have been so scary for Sonos.

Maybe they should have legacied all products less than 512 mb just now and done a one time penitance. That would have allowed to them not get stuck in the 5 year trap, as a compensation. Perhaps that might have been a better way to go?

 

C
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Which is why this thread is about non Sonos ways ahead, once the legacy products die.

The hardware of the legacy products I don’t see them to die at all :wink:

But until then I would hope to see an open standard for in house audio distribution where you can mix and match devices from different manufactures and pick the software to your needs. Similar to the home automation standards. Then you are not locked in to a specific ecosystem of a particular manufacturer and you are going to have oodles of 3rd party solutions.

K

@amun - yes, you are spot on there. Echo dots do not do local NAS, I only use them for streaming services - Amazon, Apple and soon in India hopefully, Spotify. Complete oversight on my part, mea culpa.

Any time I need local NAS, I turn to Sonos.

I know there are workaround that are alleged to offer this, but I haven't bothered to try.

In my defence though, Sonos now says that NAS supplied music play should last till the hardware dies. 

K

@Cisume : Hard to see that happening, and if it does, Sonos being an early adopter - so in its absence cherish the Line In jacks on Sonos legacy products.

K

And an aside - I am pretty sure that this action by Sonos is not going to help them in the case against “evil” Google. Google is savvy enough to have picked up on this firestorm and will look to how best it can be exploited in its defence, if that is in any way possible.

A

@amun - yes, you are spot on there. They do not do local NAS, I only use them for streaming services - Amazon, Apple and soon in India hopefully, Spotify. Complete oversight on my part, mea culpa.

Any time I need local NAS, I turn to Sonos.

I know there are workaround that are alleged to offer this, but I haven't bothered to try.

In my defence though, Sonos now says that NAS supplied music play should last till the hardware dies. 

@Kumar Thanks for the confirmation - I had a feeling that this was the case so didn’t want to spend a lot of time on it if there was an easier way :grinning:

I agree that the legacy option should be fine, but I find the CCA approach to be a sensible backup - even if the whole thing falls apart.

K

Which brings forth this advice for all legacy product owners - the line in is a mechanical device that can be damaged by plugging/unplugging frequently, particularly if poor quality cables with imperfect jacks are being used. 

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