The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

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570 replies

K

@chickentender and others: I admire the lateral moves that you guys are inventing to move around this situation. Most of it, I will have no clue how to achieve, and of course I don't grudge you that.

But I can't help thinking that even to implement the simple kind of plug and play solution I am looking at, how much of the user base that is out there will have the knowledge and guidance to implement - folks that come to online discussions are just a very small percentage of the base.

Given that, I sense a May tsunami that won't abate in a hurry as things start rolling out.

K

If all the non essential stuff was stripped out of the legacy build, they have even more space available.

That brings forth a thought that is close to a rant...Sonos ought to have foreseen that memory constraints would lead to a day when they will have to break their promise of having sold a multi room audio system, even while much hardware was still working. And via self discipline, they should have quarantined such memory as would be needed to keep 32mb units still able to be on the same system as 1024 mb units, albeit with lower functionality at the 32mb unit level. That would have meant that today we would have less of the fluff and eye candy, but not this break in service.

Is this too high an expectation of foresight driven self discipline? Events have answered that question, I suppose.

K

I’ll keep these systems running, even if I eventually have to use AirPlay and/or Line-In for everything, as streaming services become incompatible with the Sonos firmware.

I will make no further Sonos purchases. Whole house audio systems are not a throwaway purchase.

Frankly, though, if Sonos is losing customers like me, they’re in really deep trouble.

@pwt : A question. How much of a concern is the security thing, if Sonos cuts legacy systems completely loose as they will, sooner or later? Streaming service issues will be visible and can be addressed as you suggest. Security holes will not be visible. Any thoughts? Can security issues be reduced if one uses just the local NAS and streaming devices that are wired to line in, instead of streaming directly to Sonos boxes? I don’t think so, but no harm in asking silly questions?

I agree with all the rest quoted, though I suspect they will be aiming to get a new generation of customers for products that will have used the now released 1024 Mb space. The business case for this decision HAS to be based on that overcoming any damage that folks like us can cause.

I just want Sonos to not go down before my migration is over, and that is on a time line of years, not months because I believe that my well looked after Sonos kit has a lot or running left in it. So ironically, I hope that Sonos pulls off this gamble successfully.

chickentender

@chickentender and others: I admire the lateral moves that you guys are inventing to move around this situation. Most of it, I will have no clue how to achieve, and of course I don't grudge you that.

But I can't help thinking that even to implement the simple kind of plug and play solution I am looking at, how much of the user base that is out there will have the knowledge and guidance to implement - folks that come to online discussions are just a very small percentage of the base.

Given that, I sense a May tsunami that won't abate in a hurry as things start rolling out.

Wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment. I’m relatively late to Sonos comparatively (6 or 7 years) but I’ve a background in both IT as well as music performance and a/v with webcasting… I never considered myself pro or anything approaching the knowledge many I know have, more of a guerilla electronics warrior, so this problem solving type is fun for me. 
Though to be honest, I don't have as much fun as I once did, and throughout it all I’m tempted to just leave the Sonos system as is, add nothing, and just return to playing more records again. I guess I’m just getting old and grumpy.
I will, and I’m sure many other will, check in on this thread as the weeks tick closer. There’ll be guidance and still time for plans. At the end of it all, I don’t think it needs to be a big deal at least in practice. There are many convergent factors at work feeding the incense going ‘round, but (as you’ve titled the thread) there’s a perfectly pragmatic and sky-is-not-falling future. 
I’d feel a bit sad for some folks throwing their hands up, selling it all and jumping into another ship that could sink even faster. I hope some of them buy speaker wire.

chickentender

but I have spent a decade afflicted by severe audiophilia. 

 

Hahah. I lived that decade as well… roughly 2000 through mid-2009, when I sold off my remaining 6 receivers (several were quad monsters) and 3 speaker sets from the basement, along with nearly everything else I owned, and went around the world for 2 years. When I came back stuff didn’t seem as neat. Sonos sure did.
Now I’ve just got an old Marantz 2235b running to a pair of Wharfedales. No pres, no bi-wiring or gold plates… hell no optical. Modest, old, compact and I love it. Everything else is just faffing about and convenience. Don’t need it. That’s just me.

P
Userlevel 3
Badge +4

Sonos maybe able to sell to legacy customers, by the user downloading software to the device at instalation, either current or legacy….maybe

K

@Ken_Griffiths :

I honestly don't give a damn about going against this “responsible recycle” stunt by Sonos which I believe to be hot air and sales promotion - full stop. There are reports in connection with the Trade Up scheme from landfill operators in the UK that were honest enough to say that all such “recycling” just ends up as bigger landfills and not as something that is actually recycled back into a new product. Doing that for plastic bags and tin cans is one thing; doing that for a Connect Amp is a completely different kettle of fish, and expensive to boot.

So, I am not hinting at anything, I am saying it in no uncertain terms. And people breaking any such agreement with Sonos are doing the planet a favour it now needs. Every drop in it helps make the ocean.

Will Sonos risk further PR disasters by even trying to proceed against someone that succeeds in using a Sonos bricked unit - even I can't see them being that stupid now.

But: there is also nothing that stops people from taking your advice either. Just saying…

All the above said, this use is not the real thing of interest to this thread, so pardon this rant, because this Sonos action has changed me overnight from evangelist to... even anti Sonos, you might say.

What is of real interest to this thread isn’t your advice or mine in connection with bricked recycled products, but what a successful test will show:  that legacy unrecycled units working in dumb mode can survive even a complete Sonos meltdown, even where their servers go offline. Will some then use this knowledge to get a 30% discount from Sonos while retaining the products or selling or gifting them? Perhaps, and if they do, it can be seen as payback for what Sonos has done to them. Again, it will be fun to see Sonos take legal action against these people. Would I do it - since the Trade up scheme is not available where I stay, this is a hypothetical question that I will not answer. 

Do I wish the meltdown fate on Sonos - No. Do I want to know how to keep my investment in Sonos viable if that happens - you bet. And it is those questions that are of interest, which you have left out while selectively capturing what I have said in your quote.

K

The above referred Connect has filled in the only hole where the Alexa India integration was missed - it has replaced a wired Bridge unit in the remote bedroom used for getting robust Sonos net there, and the line in jacks on it also allow a Echo Spot to be wired to it, to allow the Spot to show album art while piping the audio through the play 1 pair in the room. So all boxes ticked for free - voice command, album art and play 1 pair quality sound.

I highly recommend to folks that have modern units in addition to legacy ones, to buy a Connect or two in the used market ASAP - they should now be cheap, but make sure you get units that have not been bricked by recycling. Get them just for the line in jacks, never mind that you have no use for its audio out jacks. By allowing access to third party devices that will not lose streaming service functionality in the way that Sonos says legacy system units will do, these will give legacy systems that have modern units that do not have line in jacks a way to keep playing music till the hardware dies.

Connects can also serve as WiFi N class Sonos net extenders - wired or wireless. Another reason to bag a few if found for USD 50 or so.

R
Badge

This is not a rant.  

Sonos has severely compromised their integrity.  Hopefully this forum, Commumity Feedback, provides actionable input for SONOS to fairly compensate misinformed purchasers that their Sonos systems could at "anytime" be added on.  

Sonos, Keep up the good work and tell us how SONOS is going to live uo to its GEN 1 sales literature statements.  I have some tehnical suggestions, but will refrain, because SONOS engineers are best qualified to fix their legacy problem by May or shortly thereafter. 

 

K

Further to the above, a Sonos with a long term vision for a better future for its customers, the environment and consequently itself may even change the 30% scheme to legitimise what I have said people may do with legacy products.

Yes, that will get under the skin of those that sent their products to a landfill for the 30%, but that can be considered a trivial issue if the principle of sunk costs is understood and applied by them to this situation. 

K

Moving on:

@Ryan S You said - once devices switch over to legacy software, you’ll still be able to add new devices that currently exist.

By currently you mean new as exist in the present moment, and not currently at the time of adding any such in the future? By that I mean those that may be introduced after May.

@User933635 Nice post - and this made my day - they’ll all be lying down in darkened rooms - because even I have just come out after a needed spell in one.

You said:  if I cannot group modern and legacy then all my system will remain legacy and I’ll probably ditch SONOS, which will be a pity

You ought to need to ditch only if you need the new functionality that Sonos will release after the legacy version is forked.

You said: Remember, it is only stuff! - We need to keep remembering that. And neither is it stuff like the Boeing 737 that has killed people.

@andy_120 When I said that the Sonos controller is a must, I was referring to the app, not any physical controller.

@edamame You said: Regarding getting used equipment to fill in holes in your system….how can you tell if it has been put into recycle mode?

The used market has been destroyed by Sonos in even more ways. I know of sellers that are reluctant to sell for fear of being accused of having sold recycled devices. Some one could buy one from you, get the 30% after marking it for recycling, and then come back to you and claim you sold them a lemon? Lesson here is to now be very careful in that market. Unfortunate, but there it is.

M
Userlevel 4
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I don't even expect it to be free, just low cost.  If a 200 dollar box would keep legacy products viable I would be good with that.  I don't see it as a dongle but more along the lines of a box that does the processing for legacy devices, essentially turning them into dumb speakers that just play the music stream.

I don’t see why the legacy speakers have to be dumb… They’ve been streaming in sync and working fine for over a decade, so there’s no reason why they can’t handle most things - just not the new facilities. If all the non essential stuff was stripped out of the legacy build, they have even more space available.

By dumb I was thinking more along the lines as in if the speaker can't do the required task like syncing with a stream involving modern gear, the box handles the smart part and the speaker just receives the stream.  I agree you wouldn't want the legacy systems to lose any of their current functionality.  I guess dumb speakers is not the appropriate term for this.

K

@Kumar

Sorry, I made a slip with the words which make a huge difference.  I meant to say System not Network. Huge difference. Apologies.


They have proven in the past that CR100 / CR200 can happily exist in the system running on older firmware. 

No apology needed, all of us have our heads in a spin that can unwittingly affect what is typed. Been there, done that.

To the second part, there is someone posting on this thread that has stayed on the older version to keep the 100 alive. Another has not needed to do so, and is still able to use the 200.

I have neither, but there seems to be an anomaly here somewhere.

K

….At the end of it all, I don’t think it needs to be a big deal at least in practice….

If you want to stay up with all the latest features, in particular voice control, then it probably is a big deal… 

If Sonos sticks to their latest pledge - and it must be said that this is a big if given their recent track record of broken promises - and keeps legacy systems afloat for many more years why? Every legacy product of today has line in jacks, so even if the streaming service feed to Sonos isn't broken, one just needs to switch the supply device to the line in jacks for the latest in voice control, even before Sonos offers it in their newest integrated products. And while Sonos has been bashful about saying this explicitly, only streaming service functionality might break before the hardware dies, in which again - Line In to the rescue.

I cannot see Sonos doing anything in future on the smart audio side that the best of other smart device makers will not be able to do, except in some ways that are unique to Sonos today. But that also gets offset by Sonos not being able to do some things that are unique to the other devices. For most users, these differences won’t be a big deal. On the other hand, at best Sonos will stay on level pegging terms on voice control. Leader in this area? Doubtful.

TV may be a  different ball game - I don't use Sonos for TV and don’t much care for anything fancy for TV audio, so I don't know much about that or care to know more. But there it may be that having the latest Sonos offerings delivers a better outcome than anything other than a full blown HT system, with the latter having the problem of being decor destroying. And in that case one may want to stay on the Sonos upgrade train to get those benefits, jettisoning legacy products if one wants to stay on one interoperable system.

R
Userlevel 5
Badge +4

I’ll keep these systems running, even if I eventually have to use AirPlay and/or Line-In for everything, as streaming services become incompatible with the Sonos firmware.

I will make no further Sonos purchases. Whole house audio systems are not a throwaway purchase.

Frankly, though, if Sonos is losing customers like me, they’re in really deep trouble.

@pwt : A question. How much of a concern is the security thing, if Sonos cuts legacy systems completely loose as they will, sooner or later? Streaming service issues will be visible and can be addressed as you suggest. Security holes will not be visible. Any thoughts? Can security issues be reduced if one uses just the local NAS and streaming devices that are wired to line in, instead of streaming directly to Sonos boxes? I don’t think so, but no harm in asking silly questions?

I agree with all the rest quoted, though I suspect they will be aiming to get a new generation of customers for products that will have used the now released 1024 Mb space. The business case for this decision HAS to be based on that overcoming any damage that folks like us can cause.

I just want Sonos to not go down before my migration is over, and that is on a time line of years, not months because I believe that my well looked after Sonos kit has a lot or running left in it. So ironically, I hope that Sonos pulls off this gamble successfully.

Agreed, the only thing worse than support being pulled for older products is support pulled for all products because Sonos fails.

In terms of this topic, all my legacy products are downstairs while by modern (for now) Play:3’s are upstairs so two networks are feasible for me. If Spotify stops working I’ll unsubscribe and so long as radio keeps working I’ll be fine.
 

What I suspect I won’t do is now replace some of those conponents as I had been planning to do because they’ll be held back by needing to join the legacy network. 

M
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The obvious question to anyone here that has a bricked 5: what happens if you plug a phone playing music into the line in jack of a 5? Does it even boot up if power is applied?

These are actually very important questions for thread followers, that someone here ought to be able to answer in five minutes - anyone that opted for Trade Up and has a bricked unit lying around. What happens if power is applied to the unit? If it boots up, as my offline units do, are the Line in jacks then still active as they are in my case? Perhaps this will work for bricked units only If Autoplay option for the Line In was on at the time of bricking...

The answers are important because if such a unit works as a dumb device, that is solid reassurance for the rest of us here that there is nothing that Sonos can do to brick our Connect/Connect Amp/5 by any act of commission. Acts of omission like not providing updates is their hands, but if acts of commission that prevent the units from working as dumb products when supplied a signal by Line In are not doable, then it does not matter to these units if Sonos even were to go bankrupt and their servers were to go offline. 

Selecting Line In Autoplay ON for all legacy units via the controller today, and leaving it ON forever, may then be a very good precaution to take. It can't hurt, but may end up being a hardware life saver.  

I would also be curious to understand how the line in feature works just without network connectivy.  While I don't believe sonos would forcibly brick a unit against a customers will, I do wonder if a connect amp could be run as a dumb amp without being part of the sonos network.  Not that it would be my choice but if things got to a really negative point with sonos, could you hook up a pair of passive speakers to the connect amp, remove sonos software from your system and then hook up an echo dot to the line in and still have a decent quality non sonos stereo.  My guess would be no, but even something like that might help those with legacy connect amps not feel like their amps are garbage.  I don't own a connect amp but I wonder if this could be tested by just turning off WiFi to the house for a few minutes and then plugging a phone or CD player into the line in port.  Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

K

That one went for moderation too. One more attempt.

R

. I'm not impacted this time, but it is likely I will be next time, and the time after, how many separate systems might need to be managed? When the next products go legacy they can't go down to this Mays codebase without loosing functionality, so Sonos needs to then support 3 versions, original legacy, new legacy and modern. Which means either 3 systems, or the legacy sytem supporting 2 different software versions, something they say they can't do today. There are some big implications to either Sonos or their customer base which they need to answer or things will only get worse

That is an excellent point! I have some thoughts, but this is definitely one for @Ryan S to answer . Whose nerves must be close to getting shot...Sonos needs to think of spelling him every few days for r&r before he is told, as Henry V told his soldiers at Agincourt...once more into the breach my friend...if he is to last even till just May:-)

It’s a great question, but I can’t answer it. We haven’t shared all of the details of how the current legacy process is happening. Let’s get through May first before we start worrying about unannounced things. If you haven’t heard it yet @RedSonos, we are committed to supporting Sonos speakers with software updates for at least five years after we’ve stopped selling them. We’ve got a track record of much longer, as all of the devices going into legacy now were designed at least a decade ago and some of them we stopped selling around 10 years ago. They aren’t getting moved to legacy because they’re old, it’s because their hardware can't keep up with the software demands of the future, all of the modern devices are quite capable of handling those needs. 

Whilst I support the efforts to concentrate on May, in my experience (I'm an IT infrastructure architect) many projects deal with the here and now without considering the implications of these decisions on future iterations. In some cases this means that they paint themselves into a corner, so a long term objective/viewpoint is always something which should be taken into account to ensure there can be a future. I appreciate Sonos's commitment to supporting products for a minimum of 5 years, but my gateway into Sonos was some second hand kit from a friend, so I could become unsupported in less than 5 years. Whilst I know that isn't Sonos's intention today, who knows what hardware requirements will be required to support services in 4 years time, so all I ask that there will be the option to support 2 iterations of legacy devices without huge compromises having to be made

Ken_Griffiths

@Ken_Griffiths :

I honestly don't give a damn about going against this “responsible recycle” stunt by Sonos which I believe to be hot air and sales promotion - full stop. There are reports in connection with the Trade Up scheme from landfill operators in the UK that were honest enough to say that all such “recycling” just ends up as bigger landfills and not as something that is actually recycled back into a new product. Doing that for plastic bags and tin cans is one thing; doing that for a Connect Amp is a completely different kettle of fish, and expensive to boot.

So, I am not hinting at anything, I am saying it in no uncertain terms. And people breaking any such agreement with Sonos are doing the planet a favour it now needs. Every drop in it helps make the ocean.

Will Sonos risk further PR disasters by even trying to proceed against someone that succeeds in using a Sonos bricked unit - even I can't see them being that stupid now.

But: there is also nothing that stops people from taking your advice either. Just saying…

All the above said, this use is not the real thing of interest to this thread, so pardon this rant, because this Sonos action has changed me overnight from evangelist to... even anti Sonos, you might say.

What is of real interest to this thread isn’t your advice or mine in connection with bricked recycled products, but what a successful test will show:  that legacy unrecycled units working in dumb mode can survive even a complete Sonos meltdown, even where their servers go offline. Will some then use this knowledge to get a 30% discount from Sonos while retaining the products or selling or gifting them? Perhaps, and if they do, it can be seen as payback for what Sonos has done to them. Again, it will be fun to see Sonos take legal action against these people. Would I do it - since the Trade up scheme is not available where I stay, this is a hypothetical question that I will not answer. 

Do I wish the meltdown fate on Sonos - No. Do I want to know how to keep my investment in Sonos viable if that happens - you bet. And it is those questions that are of interest, which you have left out while selectively capturing what I have said in your quote.

I see you are now emphasising that users should try to use their traded-up deactivated legacy products. 

Isn’t that actively 'inciting’ other users to perhaps 'lie' to Sonos in the trade-up agreement process and to take the 30% discount voucher on offer, which may subsequently result in transactions of many hundreds of dollars/pounds/euros per user worldwide etc. and then not go through with the agreement of ‘responsibly recycling’ their deactivated product, but to continue to use their device… isn’t that inciting others to commit fraud?

You also appear to try to justify your comments by stating that U.K. recyclers have admitted to taking such things to landfill… even if that were true, it does not justify you encouraging others here to try to defraud Sonos via the trade-up scheme, if anything you should have perhaps opted to inform others to not use the scheme in the first place, rather than attempt to take the discount and then still use their devices.

I personally think those posts of encouragement to act 'dishonestly' should be removed from the community.

K

If I may now be permitted to introduce myself to make clear my motivation for this thread and to establish that I have no agenda for it other than what is in the topic title, as elaborated in the first post…

I cured myself of a severe obsession with expensive HiFi kit where the music itself had moved into the background, and since 2011, Sonos has been brilliant in enabling that as well as helping me stay cured.

As my post count shows, I was one of the Sonos evangelists and I have also been on the receiving end of the fanboy allegations here often enough.

 All that said, the recent post above by @User933635 has captured in one place a series of things that Sonos has done in the past that has come to start feeling to many like death by a thousand cuts. So the outbreak we see now is also on account of all the accumulated frustration, something like the last straw, except that this isn't as light as that proverbial straw.

I only suffered the loss of the brilliant Sonos Dock; that pissed me off enough to withdraw from here, and lock out updates till I found an efficient work around to it. The ability it delivered to make my play 1 truly portable, needing only mains power to both units to work even where there was no WiFi, is still missed, but I have satisfied my on the road needs with capable BT speakers so that is still nowhere near the kind of dislocation many have suffered in the last couple of years.

And by the way, I still have the Dock - I can't bring myself to just toss such a neat little product into the trash can. Even when for all practical purposes it is dead - I was advised to use it as an iPod charger! If that was tongue in cheek, I did not see the humour at the time.

There is no way I can therefore see myself trashing two Connect Amps, a Connect and two Bridges that are, unlike the Dock, still working like new.

Hence, the change of direction, and this thread.

Smilja

Has anybody already tried to use the line-in on a device that has been deployed into recycle mode? I’d say the line-in is tied to the operating environment for the device and will no longer work.

»And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space, Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.« (›Windmills Of Your Mind‹ [1967]. Music by Michel Legrand ; English lyrics written by Alan & Marilyn Bergman)
K

@Ryan S says that individual targeting isn't possible; unless, may I speculate, the filter has turned rogue like HAL...

J
Userlevel 6
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But I’m sure that if someone made such a box that was maintained by an open source community, that could stream from all the well known music services and then present itself to Sonos as a music source, people would buy in to that.

 

It already exists (runs on Pi’s inluding the 20 usd zero w, and Windows, Linux, Mac).  Software cost 0.  Open source and community support.

Streams  Spotify, Deezer, Qobuz, Napster, Tidal, Pandora, Pocketcasts, Radio Paradise, Tunein 

No limit on local library size.

Controllers via web browsers, apps for android, Mac,  You control update schedule.

Would that be the LMS solution that you mention? If so, is there a definitive article you can reference somewhere or is it a Google job?

Takes me back - rather gutted that only a few months ago I sold a couple of SliMP3 units on ebay…..

Cheers

Yes.  I’m not aware of any specific guides, I’m afraid.  Look for the slimdevices forum.  Setting up the server software is fairly straightforward for Windows and MasOS.  Using a Pi is a bit more complicated as you need to choose between 3 options - Picoreplayer, Max2Play, or install the distro on Raspian (most complex).   Once you have LMS running then you need to investigate how to install the upnp/dlna bridge plugin on LMS.   Some extensive reading probably pays off. 

Extensive reading I can manage, I just need pointing in the right direction so thanks for the info, much appreciated.

For now, of course, I’m not impacted but it would be nice to have all options available if Sonos falls over on its promise or Napster etc. change anything - I am firmly in the “not wanting to throw away perfectly working equipment” camp and most of my stuff (barring the P:1s) is knocking on for 15 years old….

I happen to have a PI W floating around - since it was only £15 I bought one out of curiosity - amazing what they can squeeze out of such a tiny PCB. But aside from the basic load (I recall it was Raspian as it goes), I never really got to grips with it.

Windows might be the better option for me, after all I have my ripped CDs stored on a hard drive fitted to a PC that is always on.

Anyways, as time permits, I’ll have a play around and report back with anything interesting.

Cheers

J

 

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

I don’t have any bricked units, but I’ve been running Sonos kit locked off for a while now, purely for local streaming. I’ve also left the system locked from updates off whilst allowing internet streaming, and that works OK.

Yesterday I was streaming music from my NAS to a Play 5 using a Chromecast Audio into the line-in - works fine. However, since Sonos enforced the log-in side of things, it seems to me (I could be wrong) that they are now holding more settings at account level, rather than locally. For example, there’s a setting on the devices for max volume, which I would have just held locally. However, AFAICS the device now has to be able to access the internet for this to work, otherwise it doesn’t ‘stick’. Consequently, I’ve set it back to the usual 100% - just in case. I have no intention of keep opening my system up just to make a minor change.

It would be interesting to know how a bricked unit would work, though...

I hadn't even thought about settings held at the account level and of having to be logged into my account.  Interesting. 

 

I don't want to sound too jaded against one company but it does seem to be an issue to consider when purchasing any smart tech.  If I buy a smart fridge and that company no longer supports the model (Or goes out of business) does my whole refrigerator no longer work or does just the smart features not work.

J
Userlevel 6
Badge +5

@johngolfuk as to the pi beta test you refer to it may have been @pwt.

Thanks Kumar, I’ll look it up.

Cheers

J

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