The Sonos Brexit and pragmatic ways past it

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Stanley_4
Userlevel 7
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Once they have the pared down Legacy software running, keeping it current and available shouldn’t be too hard. Unless something horrible is discovered there really won’t be a reason to drop it until the number of users drops to few enough that it just isn’t practical to keep it going.

K

@chickentender : good for you. Your set up is one of those that is very hard to understand in the above form and very simple to figure out when seen in the real world. To allow everyone to substitute for the not possible latter, why don’t you draw and post a simple hand drawn sketch that shows the set up with arrows indicating the path and direction of how the signal moves?

M
Userlevel 4
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Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

I don’t have any bricked units, but I’ve been running Sonos kit locked off for a while now, purely for local streaming. I’ve also left the system locked from updates off whilst allowing internet streaming, and that works OK.

Yesterday I was streaming music from my NAS to a Play 5 using a Chromecast Audio into the line-in - works fine. However, since Sonos enforced the log-in side of things, it seems to me (I could be wrong) that they are now holding more settings at account level, rather than locally. For example, there’s a setting on the devices for max volume, which I would have just held locally. However, AFAICS the device now has to be able to access the internet for this to work, otherwise it doesn’t ‘stick’. Consequently, I’ve set it back to the usual 100% - just in case. I have no intention of keep opening my system up just to make a minor change.

It would be interesting to know how a bricked unit would work, though...

I hadn't even thought about settings held at the account level and of having to be logged into my account.  Interesting. 

 

I don't want to sound too jaded against one company but it does seem to be an issue to consider when purchasing any smart tech.  If I buy a smart fridge and that company no longer supports the model (Or goes out of business) does my whole refrigerator no longer work or does just the smart features not work.

As Kumar mentioned earlier, I think that this applies to all smart tech, so I share your concerns… I’ll stick with my old reliable non-internet connected fridge for now, I think :wink:

Me too.  My fridge and stove both date back to the 1970s and work great.  My parents are on their third fridge since they moved into a retirement community 19 years ago.  Always seems to be the "computer board" (whatever that means) that gives out in their case.

chickentender

@chickentender : good for you. Your set up is one of those that is very hard to understand in the above form and very simple to figure out when seen in the real world. To allow everyone to substitute for the not possible latter, why don’t you draw and post a simple hand drawn sketch that shows the set up with arrows indicating the path and direction of how the signal moves?

Happy to. I’m certainly not a CAD user, so wiring diagrams are well outside my wheelhouse, but a janky little sketch is right up my alley. :grinning:
It does sound a bit complicated but it really isn’t. Many might ask “why don’t you use a soundbar” for a setup like this and my answer is that I’ve never wanted to. I route everything into the Marantz and my two main speakers entirely. Soundbars and surround systems have never interested me. I’d much rather have quality simplicity at this point, and that’s what this achieve for me personally.
(I listen to a large amount of vinyl still as well which is just direct from the turntable to the receiver/speakers - I’ve never bothered making that whole-house because if I’m listening to records, I’m not wandering around the house.)

K

 could you hook up a pair of passive speakers to the connect amp, remove sonos software from your system and then hook up an echo dot to the line in and still have a decent quality non sonos stereo.  My guess would be no, but even something like that might help those with legacy connect amps not feel like their amps are garbage.  I don't own a connect amp but I wonder if this could be tested by just turning off WiFi to the house for a few minutes and then plugging a phone or CD player into the line in port.  Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

@MikeOinToronto : I don't remove Sonos software from it of course, but as I have reported on more than one thread here as well as many times on this one, I run a Connect Amp, with its WiFi disabled, with Sonos net turned off, all the time via Echo Show into Line In jacks when I don't want to waste electricity keeping my 6 zone system powered up.

By the way, you don't have a 5, you don't have a Connect Amp - what legacy product DO you have?!

Because this can be tested on Connect as well!

K

@chickentender janky will work:-)

K

And I have been waiting to use this word that the military guys often use: What a cluster.…

Insert appropriate four letter word there. Hint: it isn't love.

To clarify, since the edit thing is gone: the quoted was my immediate response on reading the horrifying scenario that @RedSonos painted a few posts preceding. And the prompt - kudos again for that - Ryan response only left me thinking how much of a furore that will erupt as the roll out starts; for somewhat different reasons, but a furore even so. This from the fact that all posters here or in other online places are a small fraction of the total installed base that is still working. All those folk are going to discover all of this in May and will have to take implementation actions via complex workflows? The mind boggles at the thought. And to start, Sonos will need to clone Ryan a hundred times over to man all the touch points.

K

From the above article a quote:

“The reality is that this situation was always going to happen: the oldest products in Sonos’ line-up were inevitably going to reach a point where their hardware wasn’t able to keep up with the software, even if the amps and drivers themselves are perfectly functional.”

And where the amps and drivers are expensive for obtaining quality sound, as well for reliability/long service life, the idea of having separate boxes for the software and the hardware suggests itself. And with line in equipped legacy products, it is easy enough for another software box to access the legacy Sonos amp/driver hardware, bypassing the obsoleted Sonos software. As long as the amps/driver hardware continues to work.

The article also uses smartphones as an analogy which is fine, but physically unbundling a phone on similar lines is wildly impractical, which is where the analogy breaks down.

This also helps understand why sending functional amp/driver hardware to a landfill is criminal in AD 2020. Trump beliefs on what causes global climate change notwithstanding.

J
Userlevel 4
Badge +1

 

 

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I happen to have a PI W floating around - since it was only £15 I bought one out of curiosity - amazing what they can squeeze out of such a tiny PCB. But aside from the basic load (I recall it was Raspian as it goes), I never really got to grips with it.

 

I have an RPI i think I will repurpose to try out one of these suggestions. Will report back CC @castalla

K

Plenty to explore on Alexa app; haven’t yet discovered such on Alexa app. Not real keen on voice commands preferring app use (possible luddite here) on security merit, but who knows whether turn-off listening actually works/is hackable or both. 

There are plenty of hidden features in the Alexa app, so be sure to explore fully. Plus, there are differences in the app for phones v that for computers. The former has many more features, but the one for computers has a few things that the one for phones does not have. So worth exploring both.

I often use the app commands to drive my wired to Sonos devices, voice is often not appropriate. And during parties I hit the mic off button on the Echo to stop Alexa from thinking that people are calling her and then interjecting with weird comments across the grouped zones. That works fine, and shuts her up. Whether Amazon continues to listen in or not, I haven’t the time to care. No one is plotting the next bombing at my parties, and if Amazon want add to its servers one more banal set of conversations to billions others, they are welcome to do that.

chickentender

John MacFarlane led Sonos to its present position in the market from day 1 till retiring a couple of years ago.

A paraphrase of his very recent tweet on the subject that should encourage all here to keep going in the direction we are planning:

“Most of his 14 player system is impacted other than a few new items. He intends doing nothing until Sonos has something in an update which makes him want it.”

Obviously then, he also did not fall for the Trade Up trap.

I’ve thought about MacFarlane a number of times in the past few days, wondering what his thoughts on all this were. I’d be interested to hear a few more, but that small bit is telling… and encouraging. :)

K

Has anybody already tried to use the line-in on a device that has been deployed into recycle mode? I’d say the line-in is tied to the operating environment for the device and will no longer work.

Good question; answer awaited:-).

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

 could you hook up a pair of passive speakers to the connect amp, remove sonos software from your system and then hook up an echo dot to the line in and still have a decent quality non sonos stereo.  My guess would be no, but even something like that might help those with legacy connect amps not feel like their amps are garbage.  I don't own a connect amp but I wonder if this could be tested by just turning off WiFi to the house for a few minutes and then plugging a phone or CD player into the line in port.  Could test with a play 5 as well I guess but I don't have one of those either.  It may help prove whether a connection to sonos software is required for even it most basic function.

@MikeOinToronto : I don't remove Sonos software from it of course, but as I have reported on more than one thread here as well as many times on this one, I run a Connect Amp, with its WiFi disabled, with Sonos net turned off, all the time via Echo Show into Line In jacks when I don't want to waste electricity keeping my 6 zone system powered up.

By the way, you don't have a 5, you don't have a Connect Amp - what legacy product DO you have?!

Because this can be tested on Connect as well!

Hi Kumar.  

Sorry I must have missed the WiFi turned off part on your setup.  Have read way too many posts over the last week and a half and my brain is fried from this.

 I actually do not have any legacy products.  I have a modern sonos connect and two play ones, as well as five echo dots and one echo.  I guess I could test the modern connect as there is a line in but I doubt anyone would continue to use these if they were going entirely away from sonos as their are no amp or speakers so why would it continue to be used.  So in my case I will just leave it as is receiving updates and as a modern system. 

My more personal concern will be the next round when undoubtedly the play ones will be the next to go.  And I am also interested in this thread from a perspective of how can a customer protect their own interests and investments when a tech company decides to change direction.

K

There is one aspect where I can add relevant value to this thread, based on experience with audiophile kits for a decade and Sonos for another and that is on the subject of the sound quality via Line In. 

There is absolutely no difference in the heard sound quality between Apple Music invoked via the Sonos app, and Apple Music invoked on an Echo device and played via a wire connected Connect Amp. It isn't even necessary for the wire to be anything more expensive than a bog standard RCA stereo cable - I have found that these days excellent cables in varying lengths are sold by Amazon Basics at very reasonable prices. But any electronics shop should also have perfectly adequate ones.

Audiophiles may also point out that there is an additional analog to digital conversion involved here that takes place in the Connect Amp - again, it does not result in any audible difference.

K

I’m not concerned about Sonos security issues under most usage scenarios. 

Since Sonos has now shifted its position on updates following the backlash, this concern may be moot anyway.

And, for the ones and twos scenarios, there are LOTS of other options, many of which are cheaper, some of which are better.

I’d say it’s 50:50.

That is reassuring, on the security front. As to the concerns being moot, my concern was how to even know whether the new position on updates is sincere and is being adhered to after May and for how long, seeing the now visible trail of broken promises, including ones from the CEO himself. 

To the second part, I think that it is precisely these options that has left Sonos feeling hemmed in, hence the gamble to reach for the 1024 Mb development potential to find a way out of the squeeze. If 50:50, it is a hell of gamble though.

K

I guess I could test the modern connect as there is a line in but I doubt anyone would continue to use these if they were going entirely away from sonos as their are no amp or speakers so why would it continue to be used. 

 

And I am also interested in this thread from a perspective of how can a customer protect their own interests and investments when a tech company decides to change direction.

It would continue to be used by you the way you are using it today! So what stops you from running an easy test today?

And, to the second bit quoted, the best way of learning is by doing - which you can if you choose to.

K

@Smilja : let’s assume for discussion that the Line In is architected to not need the operating environment - an assumption based on how my Connect Amp Line In works with just mains power, no WiFi, and a signal sensed at the jacks. It even boots up in that environment. I can only make assumptions since I have no access to a bricked for recycling product.

If it did work based on the above, what next? 

T
Userlevel 3
Badge +1

 

Here's the detail.

https://audioengineusa.com/shop/adapters/b1-bluetooth-music-receiver/

Review here..

https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/audioengine/b1.htm

The review is from 2014, and has been obsoleted by Echo. For a lot less money, get a Echo Dot or Input, and wire it to your line in jacks. In addition to voice, Echo devices can also receive bluetooth music streams from paired devices. You can even leave the mic permanently off and use it this way. I have used mine to convert my desktop Sonos to a computer speaker, connected to my Mac via bluetooth. Via Sonos line in jacks.

 

Intend stay in Legacy until more facts come to table: PlayBase, Play Bar, Sonos1s

Amazon Echo Inputs on the way.  One for A/V system, short term in addition to/alternative to ZP-90; one for Connect Amp using line-in.  If works well will consider for Play5s.  Worth a try at modest price. WTH.

Kilpsch has a wireless system, obviously not as, shall I say, experienced as Sonos. Planning to explore it, but it’s a cost, of course.  Seems to be more modular design but gotta go learn.

Not an engineer or designer, but it sure seems like the old units could go “dumb” with a $35 add-on device that talks to old-unit via ethernet port, with add-on device handling processing and be upgradeable.  Someone will do this if Sonos does not.

C
Userlevel 7
Badge +17

 

@johngolfuk

Windows should be okay - first step is basic install

@Johnas 

Check out slimdevices forum - I have a brief posting there

Smilja

@Smilja : let’s assume for discussion that the Line In is architected to not need the operating environment - an assumption based on how my Connect Amp Line In works with just mains power, no WiFi, and a signal sensed at the jacks. It even boots up in that environment. I can only make assumptions since I have no access to a bricked for recycling product.

If it did work based on the above, what next? 

 

Your Connect:AMP is still driven by the firmware installed on the unit. The test requires a device with defunct firmware.

»And the world is like an apple whirling silently in space, Like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind.« (›Windmills Of Your Mind‹ [1967]. Music by Michel Legrand ; English lyrics written by Alan & Marilyn Bergman)
K

@chickentender the sketch is perfect. I will study and respond. Quick question, do the passive speakers and Sonos speakers play in sync? I think not.

@train_nerd sounds good, note though that Sonos Ethernet jacks take Sonos proprietary signals, and won't serve for third party. It has to be analog audio out to Sonos line in jacks

@chickentender hold that, I need to re read.

K

@Smilja I know; and I don't have such a device and will never be able to get one.

Are you saying then the recycling deletes the firmware? Because there may be a possibility that merely defunct as opposed to deleted firmware may still allow Line IN to work. A hypothesis that needs a test to prove. 

S

Nice to see a sensible thread without the rants, justified though they are.  Getting some good ideas.

 

My concern is something most people seem to either be ignoring or just glossing over - the controller app.

I’m with everyone wanting sonos to just make things work as they do now but perhaps limiting the new fangled guffery from the legacy devices. Group and stream music to all speakers, new and old, is all i ask.

But the whole thing replies on a mobile app (for most of us at least) and how long will that continue to work with legacy items?  I would love them to voice their stance on that too.  Apart from the more technical minded people with android devices (who can sideload an older APK) there is no way for a device to install an older version of the controller and as i’m sure we’ve all experienced at one time or another, updating the controller sometimes forces an update of the entire system.

Given the average lifecycle of mobiles these days i’m concerned about the ability to obtain a working controller for this promised future of working firmware.

It may be a non-issue but i’d like the issue aired and adressed by sonos as well as the firmware issues.

 

K

@train_nerd I know from mine that echo dot can receive Bluetooth. Not sure than input can, so do check. Voice controlled play from input wired to line in jacks on Sonos will work, no doubt on that bit.

M
Userlevel 4
Badge +2

 

It would continue to be used by you the way you are using it today! So what stops you from running an easy test today?

 

If I left the sonos environment I would just disconnect the sonos connect and take the line out from an echo dot directly to My receiver.  The only function of the connect in my environment is to allow me to use the sonos infrastructure with my vintage audio system.  I agree I could test if it would work without wifi but I just can't see anything gained by using a connect if you were not using sonos anymore.  The connect amp and play 5s however could continue to provide amplification and/Or amp speaker functionality in another infrastructure providing line in functions without a sonos controller of some kind.

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