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anybody replaced their Connect with a Port?

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K

What audiophile uses an external DAC with the variable volume setting?

One that needs the volume control on the Sonos app to work?

But, as I have said in another post that has just been red flagged although it endorses Sonos quality, my experience suggests dumping external DACs, and using Connect analog outputs, using EQ to accommodate any room acoustics or speaker placement issues - in which case this fixed v variable thing is moot.

K

Ironically, and having extensively used a USD 2000 external DAC in the past that weighed more than most amps, all of this seems to say that one may as well use the Connect and Port via their analog outputs. I have not found any differences employing said DAC or that in a high end Marantz SACD player, compared to analog outs from my two 2011 make Connects, back in the day when I was evaluating them/Sonos as a replacement for these bits of “HiFi” kit.

Sources ranged from lossless CD rips as well as iTunes lossy AAC downloads, and speakers ranged from Harbeths to Quads, with high powered Quad amplification a constant. The Connect did the job just as well, for much less, offering a lot more convenience via playlists, and access to a lot more music.

And today, Echo Show units wired to line in jacks on Connect/Connect Amps do just as well, sourcing lossless transcoded CD rips from a local NAS on a Raspberry and from Amazon/Apple Music.

jgatie

What audiophile uses an external DAC with the variable volume setting?

F
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I think the reviewer was implying that this limiting seems to be more aggressive in the Port. That would echo my own findings. Particularly with it making streams from 6 music sound almost the same as a Tidal or Apple Music stream.

 

F
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 Soft-knee limiting is common, in order to avoid hard clipping in signals which could otherwise be driven above Full Scale by EQ etc.

 

Will this limiting come into play where the EQ is set to flat, for digital outputs in variable volume mode? And even if that is so, does it come into play only when the volume slider goes past 85% ish? If so, this will not be heard if the Port unit is at say 70% volume with the downstream amp delivering more gain to compensate?

Is this limiting the same as was supposed to have been done in Connects some years 
K

 Soft-knee limiting is common, in order to avoid hard clipping in signals which could otherwise be driven above Full Scale by EQ etc.

 

Will this limiting come into play where the EQ is set to flat, for digital outputs in variable volume mode? And even if that is so, does it come into play only when the volume slider goes past 85% ish? If so, this will not be heard if the Port unit is at say 70% volume with the downstream amp delivering more gain to compensate?

Is this limiting the same as was supposed to have been done in Connects some years ago?

ratty

A thought-provoking review. Its findings to a degree chime with my observations of soft-knee limiting in Variable Volume mode above about 85% (flat EQ) on the digital out when the input samples were at Full Scale. Soft-knee limiting is common, in order to avoid hard clipping in signals which could otherwise be driven above Full Scale by EQ etc. It could also mitigate potential inter-sample peaks over FS in a downstream DAC.

Fixed Volume is flat, without EQ, so a limiter isn’t strictly necessary. The digital signal can be passed straight through from the decoder. 

The observation about the analog outs is interesting, and on reflection makes sense. Whereas the digital outs have to be protected against going above Full Scale by a soft-knee limiter there is no such hard ceiling for the analog outs. Internally the pipeline is evidently 32-bit, so in both the digital and analog domains there is no practical limit anywhere. 

 

K

Now with input from Sonos. Apparently the Port does process the sound differently from the Connect via Digital Out. 

The DSP, according to this source, is designed to adjust for “the different characteristics [of] different recorded content… that impact volume output. The DSP helps to keep it balanced so that it protects the listener’s equipment and ears.”

The workaround is to use the ‘fixed’ output. This may explain why I’m hearing it using variable & others aren’t if they are using fixed. It also explains why I was happy with the Sound from the Port when so switched to ‘fixed’ mode. 

 

I am not sure how credible this attribute is, including the claim that Sonos have owned up to it. 

What is also strange is the claim that this issue arises only where the digital outputs are concerned, and is not there with analog outputs where the differences between Connect and Port are said to vanish.

Why Sonos would mess around with digital outputs but leave analog outputs untouched is a mystery.

F
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.techhive.com/article/3546333/sonos-port-review.amp.html
 

Updated Port review on Techhive. Now with input from Sonos. Apparently the Port does process the sound differently from the Connect via Digital Out. 

The DSP, according to this source, is designed to adjust for “the different characteristics [of] different recorded content… that impact volume output. The DSP helps to keep it balanced so that it protects the listener’s equipment and ears.”

The workaround is to use the ‘fixed’ output. This may explain why I’m hearing it using variable & others aren’t if they are using fixed. It also explains why I was happy with the Sound from the Port when so switched to ‘fixed’ mode. 

 

pwt
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I don’t intend to be the last word in this thread, but I thought I would report that I decided to go ahead and get the Port with the 30% off.  Before upgrading to S2, I grouped the Port (through coax) and the Connect gen 1 (through optical).  When toggling between the 2, the music sounds identical.

I concur. I received a Port today, and its audio quality is indistinguishable from the Connect it replaces when using their respective digital outputs, as expected.

(Already missing the front panel controls, however.)

4 x P:5 | Sub | 4 x P:1 | 3 x Connect | 2 x Boost | Connect:Amp | 2 x One | Amp | Move | Port
P
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I don’t intend to be the last word in this thread, but I thought I would report that I decided to go ahead and get the Port with the 30% off.  Before upgrading to S2, I grouped the Port (through coax) and the Connect gen 1 (through optical).  When toggling between the 2, the music sounds identical.

F
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Indeed ratty.  Also, why people pay so much for a DAC that so obviously colors the sound is puzzling.  Shouldn’t a high quality DAC be transparent to the source?  And If one prefers their sound colored, wouldn’t a digital equalizer be a far more practical solution than a DAC?

If you want to listen to what the Port chucks out of its analogue outs be my guest. I most certainly don’t & neither does anyone who has actually sat down & reviewed this product seriously.

Anyone who comes on to these forums with anything negative to say about these products is instantly dismissed as some kind of audiophile purist. All I want is for the product that I am pretty much being forced to upgrade to be at least equal or better than the last. Not too much to ask when you are having to shell out £280 now is it? 

I can see that I am not going to get anywhere in this  discussion so I am going to leave the last words to someone else. 
 

Thanks again to all that have helped along the way. 

jgatie

Indeed ratty.  Also, why people pay so much for a DAC that so obviously colors the sound is puzzling.  Shouldn’t a high quality DAC be transparent to the source?  And If one prefers their sound colored, wouldn’t a digital equalizer be a far more practical solution than a DAC?

F
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I did experiment with a new Dac last week. It was a Beresford Caiman Seg. That really opened the sound of the port up.

Don’t you think that points to your DAC(s) as being the source of the ‘problem’, such as it is?

 

However the Bass was a little too tame for me.

Again, that sounds like the DAC.

I’m confused. One minute a DAC “opened the sound up”, the next it’s “lifeless”. 
  
 

I have no idea.  At this stage I had already sold my Connect so couldn’t compare how the Connect would have sounded with it. The Beresford is famed for throwing  a really wide soundstage. Even with the Beresford the Port still did not sound as good as the connect. I would have been spending upwards of £560 & still not be happy. 
This thread is here to help others who may be in the same position as me. I can’t explain how two digital sources can sound so different but they most certainly do & I am not the only one saying this. All I can trust is my ears & my gear. I know confirmation Bias is a well known phenomenon but it is also a great way to silence anyone who may come here with an opinion on sound. 
I thank you for the time you have spent helping me out here Ratty but I am now back where I started at the beginning of this thread & I couldn’t be happier. Considerably better off financially ( saving money on the Port & buying the end of line connect) & with a sound that I (be it subjectively or not) that I am really happy with. 
 

 
ratty

I did experiment with a new Dac last week. It was a Beresford Caiman Seg. That really opened the sound of the port up.

Don’t you think that points to your DAC(s) as being the source of the ‘problem’, such as it is?

 

However the Bass was a little too tame for me.

Again, that sounds like the DAC.

I’m confused. One minute a DAC “opened the sound up”, the next it’s “lifeless”. 

jgatie

No idea. The issue must be the coax output of the Port then. The Port is putting out a much more ‘compressed’ sound somehow. It’s just a ‘lifeless’ representation. The Connect has a more ‘real’ & ‘live feel to it. A great example is it’s harder to hear the difference between a Digital radio stream & music streamed from Apple Music on the Port. You can easily tell the difference on the Connect.  Either way. Not my problem now. I am not the first to report this issue & I’m pretty sure sure I won’t be the last.  Thankfully Sonos has a fantastic returns policy. 

 

Far more likely it is expectation bias that would disappear under proper ABX testing.  

F
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How are they supposed to “update” something that is already bit-perfect to the source?  

No idea. The issue must be the coax output of the Port then. The Port is putting out a much more ‘compressed’ sound somehow. It’s just a ‘lifeless’ representation. The Connect has a more ‘real’ & ‘live feel to it. A great example is it’s harder to hear the difference between a Digital radio stream & music streamed from Apple Music on the Port. You can easily tell the difference on the Connect.  Either way. Not my problem now. I am not the first to report this issue & I’m pretty sure sure I won’t be the last.  Thankfully Sonos has a fantastic returns policy. 

F
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You have done exactly the right thing. The Connect from Richer Sounds made me realise that I had I was simply settling for the sound from the Port. The minute I plugged in the Connect it was like welcoming back an old friend. I couldn’t pack the Port back up fast enough!! Only issue is it doesn’t look as nice perched on my bookshelf as the Port. 

C

I found this thread just after doing exactly what Finbow did - the last part, anyway. I’d never got as far as ordering a Port but I’d been wondering whether to replace my Gen1 Connect.  Through a Meridian Director DAC I’ve been very happy with the sound it makes: width, depth, bottom, scale - it just sounds convincing and involving.  And I’d read the same discouraging reviews of the Port, which made me hesitate to simply trade up, even at 30 percent off.

I could continue with S1, which Sonos made me install last night, but the rest of my system is all S2-compatible, Then I remembered that I got this Connect as an end-of-line bargain from Richer Sounds, so I looked to see what they still had Gen2 Connects - and, well, you know the rest.  Feels like a result, in that I (should) get to keep what I enjoy in the old Connect, but still have access to the forthcoming goodies of S2 - whatever they turn out to be.

Meanwhile, thanks for documenting your own experiences here so helpfully.

jgatie

How are they supposed to “update” something that is already bit-perfect to the source?  

F
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This really is the end of this saga! Updated just in case anyone else finds themselves in the same position. Returned the Port to Sonos today. Picked up a reduced new Gen 2 Connect from Richer Sounds instead. £200 less & a much more spacious & natural sound than the Port. The Port is ok for casual listening but if you want to get lost in the music the Connect is just so much better! I was hoping that the S2 update would somehow ‘open up’ the Port but alas it was not to be! Maybe Sonos will address the issue in an update or maybe not. 

F
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Yet another review echoing my findings with the port. Using coax output a/b’d with the Connect. Over at Tech Hive....

https://www.techhive.com/article/3546333/sonos-port-review.html

 

G
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Well, bare with me! Think I’m going to have to start a new thread called ‘ Sonos Port an apology!’.

Had to send back the Connect I bought from eBay as it was faulty. Hadn’t sent back the Port yet so dug it out for one last try. It updated when I plugged it in & now it sounds wonderful! Don’t know if, it was confirmation bias all along or whether simply rebooting the device triggered something but I am now 100% happy with the Port! 

What Hifi are talking out of their backsides!!

Cheers for all of your help,

 

I would just say that when I got my Port, the sound was not overwhelmingly good, it did not play neutrally, but with one, let's call it “studio monitor” sound.
After many reboots of the Port, it was as if it suddenly loaded a completely different and very good and natural sounding sound signature.
Therefore I am now very happy with the sound in my Port, but I have the feeling that the DSP processor that sits inside the Port can be sound-adjusted.
And I think that, when I received the Port it was playing with the DSP processors default settings.

But the many reboots then suddenly loaded the correct natural audio signature into the Port.
 

I would just point out that what I experienced was via the analog output.

And that it's been months since I experienced this and that my Port has been playing fine ever since.

F
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I am convinced that the last update made a difference to the sound quality. Wether that was intentional or wether It just rebooted the device it certainly seemed to have an effect. 
As I said in one of my earlier posts. I am happy with the Port myself also. Although I feel that the £280 I paid is a much fairer price than the simply ridiculous £399! 
looking forward to the S2 updated now. 

B
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Update: I’m swinging back to neutral/minimal difference between the Port and Connect (at least over digital connection).

Arcam confirmed there’s no practical difference in hardware of software between the two inputs I was using. I tried repeating my test protocol, swapping the input channels I was using to rule out minor differences. That second phase of testing was much less convincing. I swapped back and went a third round and found myself much less able to discern material differences. 

Whilst I think that there must be generational differences between the units that may affect timing, clock or jitter, I’m less convinced after a week’s worth of listening that it’s practically discernible. I also twigged that there’s one more variable, the Connect is plugged into a mains conditioner/anti-surge power strip whereas for test setup, I’d just plugged the Port into a spare wall socket. I’m not opening up that can of worms, but it's another factor.

I think on balance, if there is a difference I can’t hear it and the future proofing of Port offsets that.

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