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anybody replaced their Connect with a Port?

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J

Hi All, First time poster here.  I too bought a Port to replace a Connect, which I felt compelled to do to keep my system up to date, as many others have.  I have read the What Hifi and Tech Hive reviews. When I received my Port, I hooked it up, and it did not sound great to me - compressed, less separation of instruments, bass not as deep, treble not as crisp. I read many posts here and began to wonder - is it me, or is it the actually the Port, so I set to find out.

I hooked up the Port and Connect at the same time via Coax to my Marantz SR7012 AVR and both were on fixed volume. I chose 4 songs  I am very familiar with to play: Steely Dan - Aja -Home At Last (MFSL), Elton John - Tumbleweed Connection - Ballad of a Well Known Gun (MFSL), Elton John Captain Fantastic - Captain Fantastic, Stevie Wonder - Innervisions- Don’t You Worry bout a Thing.  My Speakers are B&W CM9’s with CM Centre 2 S2 and ASW 600 Sub and B&W Surrounds. My Preferred Listening Mode is Auro 2D Surround.

I played each song, and had my Son choose the source 8 different times while each song was playing. Sometimes he switched the source, sometimes he didn’t, but there was a brief “break” between each switch request (he would choose a non source to break the sound, and then choose either the Port or Connect after that) so I could not tell which he was choosing. I then wrote down for each trial which source,  Connect or Port, I thought I was listening to, for each song. He kept track of which source he chose each time, and we compared notes at the end of each song.

I was able to guess the source correctly 72% of the time (23 out of 32 times). My scores for each song were 75% - 62% - 62% - 87% repsectively (not sure if that says something about Elton John : ))

My conclusion is that this is statically significant to me, and more often than not, I can tell the difference between the Port and Connect. So, am i disappointed? yeah, a bit. Am I going to return my Port - I’m not really sure - I am choosing between staying up to date vs. better sound from my Sonos streamer. I will probably end up keeping the Port and using it for more casual listening, and use other sources for more critical listening. And, hope for a Port update that will improve the sound.

The one thing I feel strongly about is that Sonos should at least acknowledge that their could be an issue with the Port sound, and to address it in some way with the community. There have been enough post and articles about the subject that not addressing it only hurts Sonos’ reputation (and I am a big fan and own many products) and possibly hurts further sales of the Port.

Thanks for listening.

 

K

Inspired by this thread, I tried switching my Port over to its analog outputs. Personally, I think it sounds very good (Yamaha AX757SE amp, Q Acoustics Concept 20 speakers/stands, KEF subwoofer).

I am not surprised. I ended up giving away my Musical Fidelity Tube DAC to a friend some years ago, because I could not bring myself to sell something to him that did nothing to the SQ. It even had feet with built in lights that changed colours to let you know it was warmed up enough to deliver its designed performance. I also sold my DAC access equipped Marantz SACD player once I moved to Sonos+ripped to local NAS CDs. For that one I collected money, for since it played CDs!

Some years ago, I came across a DAC that was sold at something like USD 40k. Unbelievable.

PS: it was closer to USD 85k...

pwt
Userlevel 7
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Have you tried using the analog out with Variable volume? According to that article the DSP limiting/compression only applies to the digital out, which in retrospect is logical.

Inspired by this thread, I tried switching my Port over to its analog outputs. Personally, I think it sounds very good (Yamaha AX757SE amp, Q Acoustics Concept 20 speakers/stands, KEF subwoofer).

4 x P:5 | Sub | 4 x P:1 | 3 x Connect | 2 x Boost | Connect:Amp | 2 x One | Amp | Move | Port
K

 Arguably if hifi is your rabbit hole then you are not going to be looking at Sonos. But Sonos has so many great qualities it would just be nice if they designed a hifi connection product with what hifi users are looking for and I would upgrade tomorrow. .  

Arguably is right; if one definition of Hifi behaviour when buying kit is spending a lot more than one can afford, and also ruining the home aesthetic in the opinion of the better half, I qualify; and when I decided to be more sensible after over a decade of this, in 2011 I started using Connect directly wired to the line in jacks of my Quad pre amp with no perceived loss of sound quality or diminution in listening pleasure, with significantly enhanced domestic harmony. 

Now, I am just as fine with what I hear from a source such as Echo Show wired to analog inputs on my Connect/Connect Amps. It really comes down to speakers in use and how well they interact with the room. IMO. And the artwork that accompanies each track as is displayed on the Show adds to the experience in my book, while sound quality remains HiFi.

And all are HiFi. Including the Port here as a HiFi component when its analog outputs are used. It seems that when digital outputs are in use, one needs to know what one is doing, which is a pity that Sonos ought to quickly correct.

The other thing about HiFi is that for every HiFi component that is named as such another can be found that will look down on the former with disdain.

T
Userlevel 3
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Agreed. I use varable output when playing with rest of sonus system and fixed when using as standalone hifi source. It is not a deal breaker but as clean as possible digital variable output from Connect/Port would be more convenient. As soon as you switch to analog then the sound is being processed in any system but for a device that is connected to hifi i just want to use it as a transport and the sound as clean and natural as possible. A more processed sound may well make sense playing through Sonos speakers but not hifi.  The Port/Connect is designed to connect to hifi so the question is what are hifi users looking for. Arguably if hifi is your rabbit hole then you are not going to be looking at Sonos. But Sonos has so many great qualities it would just be nice if they designed a hifi connection product with what hifi users are looking for and I would upgrade tomorrow. .  

F
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Is it not as simple a solution as Sonos disabling EQ in variable mode on digital outputs, along with whatever DSP sauce has been added in that mode? With digital outputs to be used with a DAC equipped downstream kit, which will almost certainly have wider ranging tone control/filters that can be used instead. Then the only difference between fixed and variable digital outs will be what is suggested by those descriptions, with variable to be used by those needing the Sonos app volume controls. If fixed can then be transparent, so can variable surely.

Those wanting to use onboard EQ will get it when analog outputs are used. I found these outputs on my Connect to be as good as I could hear back in 2011 in comparison to external DACs that cost many times the price of the Connect, and even if DAC tech has not progressed since then, the Port is very unlikely to have been equipped with a DAC that is audible less capable than the one in my 2011 Connects. Reviews I have read suggest that the Port sounds the same as Connect when analog outputs are used - no surprise there.

And in my case, since my kit downstream of the Connect has tone controls, I leave Sonos EQ in flat condition even using analog outputs.

Totally agree. Why not just give us an option to disable EQ? If you’re using an amp that has Bass & Treble controls anyway. Little use for them on the Connect/Port.

K

Is it not as simple a solution as Sonos disabling EQ in variable mode on digital outputs, along with whatever DSP sauce has been added in that mode? With digital outputs to be used with a DAC equipped downstream kit, which will almost certainly have wider ranging tone control/filters that can be used instead. Then the only difference between fixed and variable digital outs will be what is suggested by those descriptions, with variable to be used by those needing the Sonos app volume controls. If fixed can then be transparent, so can variable surely.

Those wanting to use onboard EQ will get it when analog outputs are used. I found these outputs on my Connect to be as good as I could hear back in 2011 in comparison to external DACs that cost many times the price of the Connect, and even if DAC tech has not progressed since then, the Port is very unlikely to have been equipped with a DAC that is audible less capable than the one in my 2011 Connects. Reviews I have read suggest that the Port sounds the same as Connect when analog outputs are used - no surprise there.

And in my case, since my kit downstream of the Connect has tone controls, I leave Sonos EQ in flat condition even using analog outputs.

T
Userlevel 3
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Whatever the views Sonos Community is a wealth of useful information. 

Just tried some subjective testing of Connect Gen 2 from optical digital out through an Audiolab 8300 CDQ CDplayer/DAC to Sennheiser HD800S headphones.

The variable output from the Sonos Connect sounds absolutely fine on my Sonos system but awful on the HD00S.  But switching to fixed output I didn’t notice any difference between playing the CD directly and playing a ripped ALAC file version of the CD through the Sonos fixed digital optical output and DAC on the CD player. The Apple music AAC version source file through the Sonos Connect fixed digital optical output sounded only marginally worse and wouldn’t put much money on a blind test. 

The headphones on the other hand sounded dramatically better than than the rest of my speakers and headphones.    

Does seem that they haven’t got the Port right just yet. Basically if using for hifi purposes you don’t want a DAC as you will likely already have one. You just want an undistorted unprocessed fixed output with coxial and digiital outputs so you can connect to your other system inputs as you want and the ability to play hi res file formats not because they sound better but so you can actually play them i.e. just the same basic functionality as pretty much everything else out there on the market. Currently there is absolutely no reason to switch from Connect Gen 2 to Port other than the better look and Airplay if you use Apple and there is no reason to chose a Port over other streamers on the market unless you are tied to the Sonos system   I’ve no doubt Sonos has the ability to get it right but at the moment as a hifi streamer connection the Port is not convincing. 

F
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The quote was yours about it being bit perfect. I just don’t don’t know how to link back to it, so I just copy & pasted it! Sorry! Yes it was a misquote. For that I apologise. 
My point was that you jumped in to say that I must be wrong without reading the thread fully. No offence taken. I assumed that you had read the thread & knew that I was using ‘variable’. 

 

I never once said you were wrong.  I asked a question, assuming (wrongly) that you were talking about Fixed volume (hence the bit-perfect reference), since Fixed volume is the only objective way to make a comparison.  If you had answered “I wasn’t using Fixed volume, so I’m not talking about bit-perfect”, I would have said “Oh, sorry for assuming. Yeah, that can definitely be different”

I didn’t know that variable wasn’t bit - perfect. I know very little about how digital information is passed. All I know is my ears & my gear. To be honest it wasn’t just you. I was just a bit sick of being made to feel like I was imagining something when if I could just sit people down they would’ve heard the difference very clearly. It seems that people get pretty touchy about this gear. 😂
Anyway, the Port has gone back, I’ve got S2 running in my lounge via the Gen 2 connect which sounds excellent in variable mode & I’ve saved  a load of dosh..So I’m happy now. 👍

jgatie


The quote was yours about it being bit perfect. I just don’t don’t know how to link back to it, so I just copy & pasted it! Sorry! Yes it was a misquote. For that I apologise. 
My point was that you jumped in to say that I must be wrong without reading the thread fully. No offence taken. I assumed that you had read the thread & knew that I was using ‘variable’. 

 

I never once said you were wrong.  I asked a question, assuming (wrongly) that you were talking about Fixed volume (hence the bit-perfect reference), since Fixed volume is the only objective way to make a comparison.  If you had answered “I wasn’t using Fixed volume, so I’m not talking about bit-perfect”, I would have said “Oh, sorry for assuming. Yeah, that can definitely be different”

F
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Neither link goes anywhere except to the top of this page.  InSided sucks.  But I’ll take your “paraphrasing” comment as an admission that I never said it was impossible (because I know I didn’t).   

 

As to your quote - At fixed output, it is most certainly bit-perfect.  If you were talking about variable output, well then by definition it is not bit-perfect, and thus is open to all sorts of updates.  I apologize for assuming you were speaking about fixed output, as I have repeatedly said in this and other threads that the Variable setting tosses all definitive,objective comparisons out the window.  Why you would think I was talking about an output that is by very definition not bit-perfect when I mentioned something being bit-perfect is puzzling.  

 


The quote was yours about it being bit perfect. I just don’t don’t know how to link back to it, so I just copy & pasted it! Sorry! Yes it was a misquote. For that I apologise. 
My point was that you jumped in to say that I must be wrong without reading the thread fully. No offence taken. I assumed that you had read the thread & knew that I was using ‘variable’. 

jgatie

Neither link goes anywhere except to the top of this page.  InSided sucks.  But I’ll take your “paraphrasing” comment as an admission that I never said it was impossible (because I know I didn’t).   

 

As to your quote - At fixed output, it is most certainly bit-perfect.  If you were talking about variable output, well then by definition it is not bit-perfect, and thus is open to all sorts of updates.  I apologize for assuming you were speaking about fixed output, as I have repeatedly said in this and other threads that the Variable setting tosses all definitive,objective comparisons out the window.  Why you would think I was talking about an output that is by very definition not bit-perfect when I mentioned something being bit-perfect is puzzling.  

 

F
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What audiophile uses an external DAC with the variable volume setting?

I have to say, your tone is very antagonistic. I am not & have never claimed to be an audiophile. I simply stated that the Port sounded more compressed & less dynamic than my old connect whilst using variable output. As I’d paid £280 to ‘upgrade’ this bit of kit I was suitably miffed! Now as it turns out I was completely correct & the sound is being ‘managed’ more aggressively via the digital out. Something that only a few posts ago you were saying was not possible.

 

Please provide a link to where I said it was not possible. I’ll be waiting . . .

  

Also, one must be wary using the variable output, for unmatched volume levels can account for “differences” heard between two audio samples as much as actual differences.  Matter of fact, the bias for volume is so subtle (yet strong), it can be shown to be present even when the most listeners cannot distinguish a change in volume (usually between 3-5 dB change). Of course, a properly level matched ABX test will shine far more light on what is at work here, but I’ve yet see one, either in the audio press, or here.

jgatie

How are they supposed to “update” something that is already bit-perfect to the source?  
 

See above. Ok I’m paraphrasing! Maybe even mis quoting!! 😂😂Clearly it is not ‘bit perfect’ though. Nor do I care. If it sounds good! Unfortunately it doesn’t. 
The implication was that the Port was putting out an un processed digital signal. It isn’t in variable mode. I don’t want to get in a fight about it. 

Also, I don’t need to do a level matched A/B test. The differences are not ‘subtle’ enough to be a mis match of volume. 
I’m not disputing that confirmation bias is not a real phenomenon. Just that I really don’t think this is a case of that & Sonos have pretty much come out & said as much.

jgatie

What audiophile uses an external DAC with the variable volume setting?

I have to say, your tone is very antagonistic. I am not & have never claimed to be an audiophile. I simply stated that the Port sounded more compressed & less dynamic than my old connect whilst using variable output. As I’d paid £280 to ‘upgrade’ this bit of kit I was suitably miffed! Now as it turns out I was completely correct & the sound is being ‘managed’ more aggressively via the digital out. Something that only a few posts ago you were saying was not possible.

 

Please provide a link to where I said it was not possible. I’ll be waiting . . .

  

Also, one must be wary using the variable output, for unmatched volume levels can account for “differences” heard between two audio samples as much as actual differences.  Matter of fact, the bias for volume is so subtle (yet strong), it can be shown to be present even when the most listeners cannot distinguish a change in volume (usually between 3-5 dB change). Of course, a properly level matched ABX test will shine far more light on what is at work here, but I’ve yet see one, either in the audio press, or here.

ratty

Yes, apologies. I just looked back over the thread and noticed your comments about the analog out.

I’m wary of confirmation bias, but having removed the DAC from the path between my Port and a Schiit head amp I suspect my Senny HD650s may be sounding a tad more ‘dynamic’. I’d had to use variable volume on the digital out on account of ergonomics and occasional EQ tweaks. Time will tell I guess...

F
Userlevel 2
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Now as it turns out I was completely correct & the sound is being ‘managed’ more aggressively via the digital out. Something that only a few posts ago you were was not possible.

Have you tried using the analog out with Variable volume? According to that article the DSP limiting/compression only applies to the digital out, which in retrospect is logical.

I have Ratty, thanks for asking. I think I said ‘much’ earlier on in the thread that the differences between the analogue outs on both units were minimal. I’d definitely say the Port had a little more clarity than the connect in that respect. However it still doesn’t sound as good (to my ears) as the connect through the Rdac. As I’ve managed to achieve what I wanted to do at the beginning of this thread( which is continue to use my hifi as part of an S2 set up) & only having to splash out £199 in the end I’m quite happy! Sonos also allowed me to carry over my 30% discount after returning the port too. So all in all it’s been a loooong road but it had a happy ending!! 

ratty

Now as it turns out I was completely correct & the sound is being ‘managed’ more aggressively via the digital out. Something that only a few posts ago you were was not possible.

Have you tried using the analog out with Variable volume? According to that article the DSP limiting/compression only applies to the digital out, which in retrospect is logical.

K

On the face of it Variable is geared more towards their needs and Fixed to audiophiles. 

And to whose needs are the analog outputs geared to?:-)) I know they work fine for me...

F
Userlevel 2
Badge +2

What audiophile uses an external DAC with the variable volume setting?

I have to say, your tone is very antagonistic. I am not & have never claimed to be an audiophile. I simply stated that the Port sounded more compressed & less dynamic than my old connect whilst using variable output. As I’d paid £280 to ‘upgrade’ this bit of kit I was suitably miffed! Now as it turns out I was completely correct & the sound is being ‘managed’ more aggressively via the digital out. Something that only a few posts ago you were saying was not possible.

ratty

Why then is this not done for Fixed volume digital outputs? Is Variable volume at 100% with flat EQ not the exact equivalent of Fixed volume? Or is it done assuming that EQ will be used in the former case even when it is not actually being used?

Fixed is a straight transfer from the decoder, bit-perfect. Variable runs the risk that EQ could push samples above Full Scale and hence into clipping.

In the old days of ZP80 it was assumed -- and proven if I recall -- that Variable/100%/flat-EQ was identical to Fixed, i.e. bit perfect. If EQ ran the risk of pushing the signal into clipping it must have been defeated in a progressive and gentle fashion.

Based on the Sonos comments in the TechHive review it sounds like they took a different design approach with Port, possibly driven in substantial part by the needs of the installer community. On the face of it Variable is geared more towards their needs and Fixed to audiophiles. 

K

Will this limiting come into play where the EQ is set to flat, for digital outputs in variable volume mode?

That’s what appears to happen. The limiting gradually increases as the volume setting increases towards 100%.. 

 

 

Why then is this not done for Fixed volume digital outputs? Is Variable volume at 100% with flat EQ not the exact equivalent of Fixed volume? Or is it done assuming that EQ will be used in the former case even when it is not actually being used?

ratty

 Soft-knee limiting is common, in order to avoid hard clipping in signals which could otherwise be driven above Full Scale by EQ etc.

Will this limiting come into play where the EQ is set to flat, for digital outputs in variable volume mode?

That’s what appears to happen. The limiting gradually increases as the volume setting heads towards 100%.

 

And even if that is so, does it come into play only when the volume slider goes past 85% ish? If so, this will not be heard if the Port unit is at say 70% volume with the downstream amp delivering more gain to compensate?

The behaviour I witnessed -- albeit with single-frequency test tones -- suggested it started to cut in above about 85%. Whether it has the effect of compressing the dynamics lower down the volume scale I can’t confirm objectively, but that seems to be what some people are saying. 

 

Is this limiting the same as was supposed to have been done in Connects some years ago?

Similar I guess. The fault in certain Connects was that the limiter was being applied in Fixed Volume too. 

jgatie

My question was rhetorical. 

I know; but my reply was for the benefit of others, who may not see that the word audiophile covers a wide range of behaviours, not all of which are extreme -  extreme like some that will disdain EQ or Tone controls because these “corrupt” the purity of their signal, not realising that these are needed to compensate to some extent for the mess that their rooms make of the sound heard when poorly placed speakers interact with the room acoustics to make a hash of the sound delivered from these speakers even when fed their “uncorrupted” signals.

 

All well and good, except a subjective reviewer should specifically mention these factors, thus removing anything definitive about their review.  But we all know pigs will fly before that happens.

K

 

My question was rhetorical. 

I know; but my reply was for the benefit of others, who may not see that the word audiophile covers a wide range of behaviours, not all of which are extreme -  extreme like some that will disdain EQ or Tone controls because these “corrupt” the purity of their signal, not realising that these are needed to compensate to some extent for the mess that their rooms make of the sound heard when poorly placed speakers interact with the room acoustics to make a hash of the sound delivered from these speakers even when fed their “uncorrupted” signals.

jgatie

What audiophile uses an external DAC with the variable volume setting?

One that needs the volume control on the Sonos app to work?

But, as I have said in another post that has just been red flagged although it endorses Sonos quality, my experience suggests dumping external DACs, and using Connect analog outputs, using EQ to accommodate any room acoustics or speaker placement issues - in which case this fixed v variable thing is moot.

 

My question was rhetorical.  I just find it strange that audiophile circles who  preach bit-perfect would immediate switch it off for convenience.  Also, I mention in another thread that a reviewer negated all objective testing when they switched off Fixed volume to fiddle with the equalizer.  In addition to the subtle effects stated above, Variable volume means volume matching now comes into play, and we all know how that affects objective listening.

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