S2 Update 14.12 Sub Issues

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Ken_Griffiths

I don’t think the overall volume of the Arc has changed, just the volume curve has been altered, so that it gets much louder in the latter part of the volume slider - probably to cater for all the different audio output levels from the various TV manufacturers and music sources …and I’m guessing Sonos are trying to achieve better overall output levels around the mid-way 50% volume level, whilst keeping all inline with output from their other speakers. It must be difficult to find the levels that best suit all.

I don’t have any issues with setting my volume slider a little further along the curve. That is somewhat meaningless to me, as I mostly use the TV remote and just see a ‘+’ / ‘-‘ display on screen, so often have no idea what the volume level is until I actually look in the App and it’s nowhere near full volume for my LG C9 TV - most often it’s near (less than) a volume level of 40%.

S
Userlevel 1

Hello,

With the recent 14.12 S2 Update there is a bug in the sub settings when using Trueplay, and I've pinpointed the problem.  I wanted to pass along this information to the company to ensure that the specifics of the issue are known.

It’s likely that most people may not notice this, or bother asking Sonos about it, but this is a real difference between 14.12 and the previous versions.

  • My current setup has an Arc, Sub(Gen1), and 2 Play1's.  
    • Using a white noise generator to review these differences.  
    • I'm controlling the sub settings on my iPad Pro while recording on my iPhone 12 Pro Max.  
    • I've run Trueplay twice since the update, and get the same results both times.  
      • Both Trueplay runs were with my iPhone as my iPad Pro does not have support yet.
  • Once updated to 14.12, you are prompted to re-run Trueplay.  But Trueplay has a bug in this new update.
  • I tested the frequencies with Trueplay On and then Off without changing the volume on the App.  
    • The only setting modified is the "Sub Audio" setting that ranges from -15 to +15
  • These differences are absolutely unique to the 14.12 update
    • I did not take pics, but have done similar tests before and the sub settings always increase/decrease all of the frequencies below the crossover
    • In previous versions, 40hz was always the highest db of any frequency when bossting the sub volume.

Trueplay On with Bass and Treble set to 0:  

  • Sub = 0: 
    • There is about a 4-5db reduction in the 30-60hz range and a boost in the 60-80hz range compared to Trueplay off

    •  

  • Sub = +15: 
    • Here is where you see the issue.  Sub 50hz doesn't change much at all even boosting the sub setting to the max  
    • There is a huge boost in the 60-80hz range where it is now the dominate frequency range of the sub

    •  

Trueplay Off with Bass, and Treble set to 0:  

  • Sub = 0
    • You can already see a difference in that the <50hz frequencies are higher and it's a pretty flat wave.

    •  
  • Sub = +15
    • Notice that now the dominate frequency range is the 35-50hz.  
    • The 60-80hz is still boosted, but it does not ever overtake the lower frequencies

    •  

  • Lastly, here is a grouped view showing these pictures side by side so you can really see the difference.
    • It also includes going -15 on the sub

    •  

  • Could it be a High Pass Filter setting that is getting triggered when you run TruePlay?
  • If you do not like the way your system sounds after 14.12, turn off Trueplay.
    • It will not be as good as what you are used to as Trueplay will adjust more to your room and leave less peaks/valleys throughout the spectrum.
    • But it will still be more like what you are used to hearing.

I can provide more information if needed, but hopefully this helps pinpoint the issue for everyone.  

 

Thank you for your time,

Robert

Crazy that it is so difficult to just deliver us a reliably flat response after random their house sound in ideal conditions before trueplay. And I’m still not happy with loudness you should take a look at that too. 

Ken_Griffiths

@skullc,

Yes, if it’s doable, I would like to see the option to increase volume on the front center channel and perhaps an option to manually balance the HT sound between the left and right channels too, as I tend to sit in two different locations in the Living Room.

Both have been asked for by a few users, but some argue that TruePlay should be able to resolve these things - it does some things, but not everything I would like to see.

skullc
Userlevel 6
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@Ken_Griffiths 

Agreed but for me 14.10 was perfect now I cannot get the sound signature to a place where I like truplay is unusable and as my cinema setup is important to me I will wait to see if they fix it.

But if they setup the sound for dialogue like now I will replace my cinema setup to something that I like, the sonos speakers I use for music get used less so I am going to be more patient.

A real shame as over the past couple of years I enjoyed the sonos sound signature which now seems to have been lost, IMHO if people complaining they could not hear dialogue a more sensible update would have been a centre channel slider to boost that channel not to adjust the sound across all channels.

I have never had dialogue issues with any content never had to use speech enhancement and I am 65!

Network= livewire cpe pro 3 +eero 6 pro wireless
Ken_Griffiths

Either way @skullc, I’m fairly sure Sonos will be looking into the various diagnostics and CS contacts made by the various users about the recent software/firmware update and if changes are needed, we will probably see those catered for in the next update anyway, or maybe the one after that. It’s probably just a case that more tuning is needed in an assortment of environments, but there’s no ‘pleasing all the people, all the time’ …and that’s where the options come in to adjust the EQ and/or use/not-use  Trueplay etc; I guess. 

In one YT video online for the Beam2, when that first came out - a user (who shall remain nameless) suggested the best setting for that speaker with the then current firmware was minus-6 .. that was insufficient Bass for how I like to listen to things despite any spectrum analysis they displayed in their presentation, so I just opted for my own listening preference, which was around minus-2 (at that time).

I guess we all have our own listening environments and preferences and where we choose to listen - which in my case is much more than a metre away from a device, where some opt to put the microphone and like to test these sort of things.

Perhaps let’s just wait and see what the next Sonos update brings.

Ken_Griffiths

@Ken_Griffiths truplay literally removes all bass and sub for me and toggling on moves does little 

Yes, there seems to be hardly anything in it when toggling Auto-Trueplay off/on with the Move (I used the downstairs Move called ‘Portable’) for our test (giving auto-Trueplay a couple of minutes to adjust of course), but with the quick ‘listening’ tests that the Wife and I just did here, we both opted for Auto-Trueplay ‘on’ (well, mostly).

There is plenty of Bass on the Move here - we just (mostly) leave the slider on its default setting, but if we did move that slider it would be left, towards less Bass, if anything, rather than more. We just like a touch more treble, but that’s perhaps an age thing.

So with this build we will leave auto-Trueplay ‘on’ for the ‘Move’. We have Trueplay tuned the stereo Fives and that is proving okay aswell. Any changes are mostly subtle on both those rooms.

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skullc
Userlevel 6
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@Ken_Griffiths truplay literally removes all bass and sub for me and toggling on moves does little 

Network= livewire cpe pro 3 +eero 6 pro wireless
Ken_Griffiths

No I don’t. My Sub is connected to my Beam HT set up and is totally fine……………..

 

My Fives are just fine to my ears

I don’t have a Sub connected to the two Fives here either and they sound absolutely fine to me aswell. I have them set in a vertical orientation (tweeters on the outside) and not noticed any issues with those at all 🤔?

I also have two Moves (standalone, not paired) and not noticed anything untoward with those speakers either. 

The Wife & I use the ‘Bathroom’ Move most mornings and I’ve just asked her and she hasn’t noticed anything different either? I have Auto-Trueplay enabled on both.. and I set its treble up two notches to how we like to listen to things.

The only thing I’ve mainly come across since the update is the Arc seems ‘slightly’ quieter and so I have had to move the volume slider up a touch (no more than 40% for TV audio. I also found the clarity/warmth seemed to be slightly better (a subtle difference) without Trueplay in our Living Room, so I left that disabled after tuning and set my own EQ/Sub-volume settings.

I didn’t opt to try to retune the room, but that’s something I may consider trying at some point.

I will now just go and try switching on/off auto-Trueplay on the Moves, now that’s been mentioned here, to see if I am able to notice anything.

skullc
Userlevel 6
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@SarahN The issues that troubles me are mainly the ones with a sub connected my beam and 1s in the bedroom seem ok oddly 

Also if I turn truplay off the bass returns 

Network= livewire cpe pro 3 +eero 6 pro wireless
SarahN
Userlevel 6
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No I don’t. My Sub is connected to my Beam HT set up and is totally fine……………..

 

My Fives are just fine to my ears

Can you have too many Sonos speakers? 🤔 😆
skullc
Userlevel 6
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Odd that I have not experienced that (unless my ears just cannot tell)

 

Sorry to hear of your issues.

Do you have a sub connected to the 5's?

Network= livewire cpe pro 3 +eero 6 pro wireless
SarahN
Userlevel 6
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Odd that I have not experienced that (unless my ears just cannot tell)

 

Sorry to hear of your issues.

Can you have too many Sonos speakers? 🤔 😆
skullc
Userlevel 6
Badge +12

I was just thinking of pulling the trigger for 2 fives, but this update stopped me… Maybe it’s time to look at other brands ☹️🤷🏻‍♂️

 

I don’t have the Arc and this update has not affected my system in any way. I know this does not mean that a future one couldn’t have any impact at all, but I love my system and in particular my 2 Fives, so don’t let this put you off completely.  Since that update before this one, my system has sounded better than ever but like I say, I don’t have the Arc (I have a Beam G2 set up along with many other speakers)

Unfortunately I  have the issues with my 2 5's and sub, lack of bass and the sound signature has changed it has even reduced bass on my  2 moves 

Network= livewire cpe pro 3 +eero 6 pro wireless
SarahN
Userlevel 6
Badge +14

I was just thinking of pulling the trigger for 2 fives, but this update stopped me… Maybe it’s time to look at other brands ☹️🤷🏻‍♂️

 

I don’t have the Arc and this update has not affected my system in any way. I know this does not mean that a future one couldn’t have any impact at all, but I love my system and in particular my 2 Fives, so don’t let this put you off completely.  Since that update before this one, my system has sounded better than ever but like I say, I don’t have the Arc (I have a Beam G2 set up along with many other speakers)

Can you have too many Sonos speakers? 🤔 😆
S
Userlevel 2

Did the update cause your system issues?

Yes, a little … and I will just wait patiently to see what the next update brings - I have had issues with a good many Apps and devices over the years through software/firmware updates.. Things invariably get sorted in the end and this issue is not proving to be a huge issue, (for me, at least) as the Arc here sounds okay with Trueplay off and my own EQ/Sub-volume settings.

I’ve mostly just had to adjust the LG C9 TV volume level up from 30-35 to around 45 and it’s fine - My Wife actually thinks that the TV speech clarity has improved, so every cloud etc…

You are not wrong that many times, things fail in the electronic era. Most of the times it’s just that an app doesn’t work as expected (but works) or crashes. But when something breaks enough, that you stop using it then you either return it as broken or throw it away. I can’t return this since its been more than 100 days and i am not planning on throwing away that much money.

K
Userlevel 7
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To many avoidable issues for me, 

Can't think of any other device that I own that has suffered from frequent poorly implemented updates?.

 

Zeek78
Userlevel 3
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I was just thinking of pulling the trigger for 2 fives, but this update stopped me… Maybe it’s time to look at other brands ☹️🤷🏻‍♂️

W
Userlevel 5
Badge +9

Yes trueplay off is definitely better 

Ken_Griffiths

Did the update cause your system issues?

Yes, a little … and I will just wait patiently to see what the next update brings - I have had issues with a good many Apps and devices over the years through software/firmware updates.. Things invariably get sorted in the end and this issue is not proving to be a huge issue, (for me, at least) as the Arc here sounds okay with Trueplay off and my own EQ/Sub-volume settings.

I’ve mostly just had to adjust the LG C9 TV volume level up from 30-35 to around 45 and it’s fine - My Wife actually thinks that the TV speech clarity has improved, so every cloud etc…

Dogdad
Userlevel 5
Badge +14

Sonos has Carte Blanche to ruin your system at the drop of a hat (or seriously restrict it if you refuse an update).

I guess the same thing could probably be said of lots of manufactures including, in no particular order… Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon, Sony, Samsung, LG, Bose, B&O etc; to name but a few ‘example’ companies… but thank goodness, I don’t suffer with such paranoia about these type of things.

 

Did the update cause your system issues?

Ken_Griffiths

Sonos has Carte Blanche to ruin your system at the drop of a hat (or seriously restrict it if you refuse an update).

I guess the same thing could probably be said of lots of manufactures including, in no particular order… Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon, Sony, Samsung, LG, Bose, B&O etc; to name but a few ‘example’ companies… but thank goodness, I don’t suffer with such paranoia about these type of things.

 
K
Userlevel 7
Badge +16

Sonos has Carte Blanche to ruin your system at the drop of a hat (or seriously restrict it if you refuse an update).

T
Userlevel 3
Badge

I simply don't believe it.

I made the mistake of updating and now I also have sound issues:

  1. My two Subs which used to sound cinematic, now sound like they are barely on.
  2. I used to watch Dolby Atmos films at 25-35 and that was loud enough, now I have it around the 60 mark for. the same volume. (And with poorer sound).

After the 14.6 fix, the sound and stability was restored to full glory. 14.12 has reverted and then some. (At least with the 14.6 issue you had good sound before it dropped). 

I am so annoyed at myself that I did not ignore the update messages. It's the kids summer holidays here in the UK, which means it's a perfect time for movies. I now just don't want to watch them and not looking forward to weeks and weeks of no updates to restore.

Yours, in complete disbelief and despair,

Brad

I know the kind of work you put here in troubleshooting 14.6, and we appreciate you very much. It grinds my gears when the customers has to pay for the product and do the troubleshooting, and companies keep breaking things happily. For a company that has a handful of products, I am baffled as to why they struggle this much with software QC. Not sure if the pandemic and / or remote work has to do something here.

B
Userlevel 6
Badge +7

I simply don't believe it.

I made the mistake of updating and now I also have sound issues:

  1. My two Subs which used to sound cinematic, now sound like they are barely on.
  2. I used to watch Dolby Atmos films at 25-35 and that was loud enough, now I have it around the 60 mark for. the same volume. (And with poorer sound).

After the 14.6 fix, the sound and stability was restored to full glory. 14.12 has reverted and then some. (At least with the 14.6 issue you had good sound before it dropped). 

I am so annoyed at myself that I did not ignore the update messages. It's the kids summer holidays here in the UK, which means it's a perfect time for movies. I now just don't want to watch them and not looking forward to weeks and weeks of no updates to restore.

Yours, in complete disbelief and despair,

Brad

N
Userlevel 3
Badge

I have noticed my system no longer sounds the same, more dull. Hard to explain. Is there any way to revert to the previous version?

I asked about this because after 14.12, I’ve got to CRANK the volume and the sound is muddled with no bass. *Unfortunately*, there is no way for Sonos to revert your software version to something stable.

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