S2 Update 14.12 Sub Issues

R
Userlevel 4

Hello,

With the recent 14.12 S2 Update there is a bug in the sub settings when using Trueplay, and I've pinpointed the problem.  I wanted to pass along this information to the company to ensure that the specifics of the issue are known.

It’s likely that most people may not notice this, or bother asking Sonos about it, but this is a real difference between 14.12 and the previous versions.

  • My current setup has an Arc, Sub(Gen1), and 2 Play1's.  
    • Using a white noise generator to review these differences.  
    • I'm controlling the sub settings on my iPad Pro while recording on my iPhone 12 Pro Max.  
    • I've run Trueplay twice since the update, and get the same results both times.  
      • Both Trueplay runs were with my iPhone as my iPad Pro does not have support yet.
  • Once updated to 14.12, you are prompted to re-run Trueplay.  But Trueplay has a bug in this new update.
  • I tested the frequencies with Trueplay On and then Off without changing the volume on the App.  
    • The only setting modified is the "Sub Audio" setting that ranges from -15 to +15
  • These differences are absolutely unique to the 14.12 update
    • I did not take pics, but have done similar tests before and the sub settings always increase/decrease all of the frequencies below the crossover
    • In previous versions, 40hz was always the highest db of any frequency when bossting the sub volume.

Trueplay On with Bass and Treble set to 0:  

  • Sub = 0: 
    • There is about a 4-5db reduction in the 30-60hz range and a boost in the 60-80hz range compared to Trueplay off

    •  

  • Sub = +15: 
    • Here is where you see the issue.  Sub 50hz doesn't change much at all even boosting the sub setting to the max  
    • There is a huge boost in the 60-80hz range where it is now the dominate frequency range of the sub

    •  

Trueplay Off with Bass, and Treble set to 0:  

  • Sub = 0
    • You can already see a difference in that the <50hz frequencies are higher and it's a pretty flat wave.

    •  
  • Sub = +15
    • Notice that now the dominate frequency range is the 35-50hz.  
    • The 60-80hz is still boosted, but it does not ever overtake the lower frequencies

    •  

  • Lastly, here is a grouped view showing these pictures side by side so you can really see the difference.
    • It also includes going -15 on the sub

    •  

  • Could it be a High Pass Filter setting that is getting triggered when you run TruePlay?
  • If you do not like the way your system sounds after 14.12, turn off Trueplay.
    • It will not be as good as what you are used to as Trueplay will adjust more to your room and leave less peaks/valleys throughout the spectrum.
    • But it will still be more like what you are used to hearing.

I can provide more information if needed, but hopefully this helps pinpoint the issue for everyone.  

 

Thank you for your time,

Robert

84 replies

S
Userlevel 2

To whoever is searching the web, wanting to buy the Sonos entertainment system (Arc + Sub + Sonos One x 2)

If you are torn between getting a machine that just works (as advertised on reviews about sonos etc), vs anything else. Go for anything else at this point.

My sonos equipment was great before update 12.6 and i was so happy, inviting friends over to hear my new system. This was until May (update 12.6) where it just feels like they are doing live testing on the production environment. I’ve been pairing/unpairing my speakers to solve issues and i’ve been trueplaying almost everyday (after each new unpair) and now they broke the true play on update 12.14. I have the system for less than 10 months and it has worked as it should for 6 of them. I can’t even fix the sound experience this time...

This is ridiculous.

They are breaking the production system without providing a fallback (rolling back to a previous version should be a priority at this point, when you have broken our systems for 4 months already) and on version 12.6 they were denying any issue whatsoever! Now we need to explain again why our Subs are performing like they are below sea level. The issue with update 12.6 was solved around early July(maybe end of june?) and now in July the system is experiencing issues again because of the updates.

At the very least, people should disable auto-updating their systems, until sonos has any credibility with their updates after this fiasco.

 

 

J
Userlevel 4
Badge +1

It certainly seems possible that they introduced some undesirable side effects due to the number of complaints on Reddit about the anemic bass after the 14.12 update. I've never once bumped my sub level above "0" until the 14.12 update. Something seems broken.

T
Userlevel 3
Badge

Damn it, not this again. We were just out of the 14.6 nightmare and you shove this on our throats. I should be mad at myself for manually updating despite having the auto updates turned off. 

Now I am genuinely concerned about their software engineering quality control. I really hope this doesn't take another 60+ pages of comments and troubleshooting for them to acknowledge this. I'm beyond pissed. 

A
Userlevel 4
Badge +3

I also noticed that something is wrong with the sound after 14.12

I put the volume way higher than before and I still don’t get the same results that I used to.

B
Userlevel 6
Badge +7

I simply don't believe it.

I made the mistake of updating and now I also have sound issues:

  1. My two Subs which used to sound cinematic, now sound like they are barely on.
  2. I used to watch Dolby Atmos films at 25-35 and that was loud enough, now I have it around the 60 mark for. the same volume. (And with poorer sound).

After the 14.6 fix, the sound and stability was restored to full glory. 14.12 has reverted and then some. (At least with the 14.6 issue you had good sound before it dropped). 

I am so annoyed at myself that I did not ignore the update messages. It's the kids summer holidays here in the UK, which means it's a perfect time for movies. I now just don't want to watch them and not looking forward to weeks and weeks of no updates to restore.

Yours, in complete disbelief and despair,

Brad

W
Userlevel 2

Damn it, not this again. We were just out of the 14.6 nightmare and you shove this on our throats. I should be mad at myself for manually updating despite having the auto updates turned off. 

Now I am genuinely concerned about their software engineering quality control. I really hope this doesn't take another 60+ pages of comments and troubleshooting for them to acknowledge this. I'm beyond pissed. 

As far as I'm concerned, they never acknowledged the dropout issue with 14.6.  They made “improvements” that just so happened to fix the issue hundreds of people were reporting.  I expect the same treatment with this.  Deny, avoid, and we are left hoping for a fix in every release.

 

Prove me wrong Sonos.

J
Userlevel 1

I purchased Sonos (Arc and sub gen 3) because of impressive low bass I love. Now after update I am sure I could bought anything else than Sonos. I heard two versions of Dolby Atmos demo on Peter YouTube channel and I know previous FW version was better for me. This update did hurt my Sonos experience and I will be sad but it will go away if they will not fix it. Is any Sonos team member read it?

skullc
Userlevel 6
Badge +12

@Ken_Griffiths 

Agreed but for me 14.10 was perfect now I cannot get the sound signature to a place where I like truplay is unusable and as my cinema setup is important to me I will wait to see if they fix it.

But if they setup the sound for dialogue like now I will replace my cinema setup to something that I like, the sonos speakers I use for music get used less so I am going to be more patient.

A real shame as over the past couple of years I enjoyed the sonos sound signature which now seems to have been lost, IMHO if people complaining they could not hear dialogue a more sensible update would have been a centre channel slider to boost that channel not to adjust the sound across all channels.

I have never had dialogue issues with any content never had to use speech enhancement and I am 65!

Network= livewire cpe pro 3 +eero 6 pro wireless
I
Userlevel 2
Badge

Thanks for doing this analysis! It provides actual data to what many of us are experiencing. I have noticed that with trueplay off the system sounds better and closer to what it was before the update. But not quite as powerful still. Even with bass/sub audio all the way up.

A
Userlevel 2
Badge

For me, disabling TruePlay didn’t seem to make much difference. Still very little bass and a tinny sound. Increasing the bass EQ to max made some difference, but still lacked depth.

I have read the Sonos community manager post about the update and I have commented in more depth there.

It seems to me either Sonos have not fully understood the scope of the issues, or have chosen to not fully acknowledge them for marketing reasons. In my opinion neither would reflect well on Sonos.

Ken_Griffiths

I don’t think the overall volume of the Arc has changed, just the volume curve has been altered, so that it gets much louder in the latter part of the volume slider - probably to cater for all the different audio output levels from the various TV manufacturers and music sources …and I’m guessing Sonos are trying to achieve better overall output levels around the mid-way 50% volume level, whilst keeping all inline with output from their other speakers. It must be difficult to find the levels that best suit all.

I don’t have any issues with setting my volume slider a little further along the curve. That is somewhat meaningless to me, as I mostly use the TV remote and just see a ‘+’ / ‘-‘ display on screen, so often have no idea what the volume level is until I actually look in the App and it’s nowhere near full volume for my LG C9 TV - most often it’s near (less than) a volume level of 40%.

S
Userlevel 1

Hello,

With the recent 14.12 S2 Update there is a bug in the sub settings when using Trueplay, and I've pinpointed the problem.  I wanted to pass along this information to the company to ensure that the specifics of the issue are known.

It’s likely that most people may not notice this, or bother asking Sonos about it, but this is a real difference between 14.12 and the previous versions.

  • My current setup has an Arc, Sub(Gen1), and 2 Play1's.  
    • Using a white noise generator to review these differences.  
    • I'm controlling the sub settings on my iPad Pro while recording on my iPhone 12 Pro Max.  
    • I've run Trueplay twice since the update, and get the same results both times.  
      • Both Trueplay runs were with my iPhone as my iPad Pro does not have support yet.
  • Once updated to 14.12, you are prompted to re-run Trueplay.  But Trueplay has a bug in this new update.
  • I tested the frequencies with Trueplay On and then Off without changing the volume on the App.  
    • The only setting modified is the "Sub Audio" setting that ranges from -15 to +15
  • These differences are absolutely unique to the 14.12 update
    • I did not take pics, but have done similar tests before and the sub settings always increase/decrease all of the frequencies below the crossover
    • In previous versions, 40hz was always the highest db of any frequency when bossting the sub volume.

Trueplay On with Bass and Treble set to 0:  

  • Sub = 0: 
    • There is about a 4-5db reduction in the 30-60hz range and a boost in the 60-80hz range compared to Trueplay off

    •  

  • Sub = +15: 
    • Here is where you see the issue.  Sub 50hz doesn't change much at all even boosting the sub setting to the max  
    • There is a huge boost in the 60-80hz range where it is now the dominate frequency range of the sub

    •  

Trueplay Off with Bass, and Treble set to 0:  

  • Sub = 0
    • You can already see a difference in that the <50hz frequencies are higher and it's a pretty flat wave.

    •  
  • Sub = +15
    • Notice that now the dominate frequency range is the 35-50hz.  
    • The 60-80hz is still boosted, but it does not ever overtake the lower frequencies

    •  

  • Lastly, here is a grouped view showing these pictures side by side so you can really see the difference.
    • It also includes going -15 on the sub

    •  

  • Could it be a High Pass Filter setting that is getting triggered when you run TruePlay?
  • If you do not like the way your system sounds after 14.12, turn off Trueplay.
    • It will not be as good as what you are used to as Trueplay will adjust more to your room and leave less peaks/valleys throughout the spectrum.
    • But it will still be more like what you are used to hearing.

I can provide more information if needed, but hopefully this helps pinpoint the issue for everyone.  

 

Thank you for your time,

Robert

Sonos fix the sub tuning now! The new Arc dsp might be personal preference overall but the sub having strongly reduced sub bass output is obviously just to reduce the gap to the sub mini. That is horrible behavior and I highly doubt that this is just a bug. This fits the story line too well. Shame on you product managers at Sonos! 

M
Userlevel 2
Badge +2

I confirm this. Sound seems globally better, but something is wrong with TruePlay calibration of the Sub.

My Sub Gen 3 seems to disappear with TruePlay on, and comes back to life if I turn TruPlay off.

Is there any moderator out there that can forward this to whoever has the responsibility and the power to fix this?

Sonos product are hands down superior, but ruining them with these disastrous updates just turn them into very unreliable products after all.

Before the update sound was very good, except, maybe the center channel on the Arc, that was a bit weak with Atoms contents.

Right now dialogues seem way better but they almost muted the sub.

 

H

Hi. I have the same problem after last update 14.12. After Trueplay I had to set Sub at +10 in order to hear barely some bass. These bugs could not happed in this price range. Now sonos sound like s…

hope they will fix it asap. 

Corry P
Userlevel 7
Badge +18

Hi all,

Thank you for your continued discussion. We’re really happy to be able to tell you that today we’ll release an update that will include fixes to the issues that resulted from the 14.12 software update with Enhanced Clarity for Arc.In the 14.12 release, we made a change to Arc’s sound profile to improve dialogue clarity and the overall sound experience.  Since that update, some users whose configuration included a Sub have experienced two issues:

  1. Users of Arc would find the same volume settings resulted in lower output volume. Whilst the maximum volume and bass capabilities were unchanged, volume settings in the lower regions resulted in a quieter sound than before the update
  2. Users of Arc, Beam and Ray would find their Sub output is lower than desired after performing a new Trueplay tuning.

(Home theatre configurations without a Sub were unaffected, including standalone soundbars and those bonded with surrounds only)

With the 14.18 software update, both of these issues have been addressed, and the Enhanced Clarity for Arc adjustments are retained. There was a clear preference within our community for the previous volume settings, and these have been restored. This will be apparent immediately after updating to 14.18. The Trueplay issue has been fixed. Customers who experienced a lower Sub level after performing Trueplay after updating to 14.12 will need to update their systems and then perform a new Trueplay tuning in order to address these improvements in their system. Customers will hear a more powerful low end response, meaning any Sub level adjustments made after 14.12 should no longer be required.

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein
K
Userlevel 7
Badge +16

I wonder if this has been done before the sale of the mini sub begins, since the mini sub can't handle those low frequency…

If that is the case and they are crippling systems to support new hardware then that doesn't bode well for the future.

I was looking at an Arc but not a chance after all the trouble people have been having since 14.06, and it just keeps getting worse.

I
Userlevel 3
Badge +2

I just got an email reply from Sonos after contacting them, hope this helps……

Hello Ian,

Thank you for contacting Sonos Customer Experience. My name is Shising, and I am happy to assist you regarding your issue. I am sorry you have had to deal with this issue. I know how frustrating it is when the system does not work as it should, and I will do my best to help you.

After the release of R3 2022, an issue was discovered that impacts audio quality negatively with Trueplay enabled on certain Home Theater Configurations.

The issue will result in slightly less output from the Sub. The issue for Arc will also affect certain other frequencies and currently, it can only be fully mitigated by Turning off Trueplay tuning | Sonos.

Please note that R3 also introduced additional changes to the Arc's audio output. These changes are expected and can result in a slightly lower perceived volume output but can simply be changed by raising the volume slightly in the Sonos app. The user doesn't lose out on overall volume, as it's just the volume scale that has been adjusted slightly. These changes are intended and are working as designed.

We are aware of the issue that Trueplay affects the sound quality negatively and are working on a fix but do not have any more information or a timeline to share.

Once again, we apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you, and we thank you for your understanding on this matter. If you have other concerns, feel free to let us know.

All the best,

Airgetlam

Despite years and years of requests, Sonos has not yet made available a method to “roll back” to a previous version. I’d assume it’s hard to do so, and they’ve not invested time in making it more easy.

Have you rerun TruePlay as suggested in the original post about this update? 

Have you contacted Sonos support with your diagnostics?

Bruce
Ken_Griffiths

Sonos has Carte Blanche to ruin your system at the drop of a hat (or seriously restrict it if you refuse an update).

I guess the same thing could probably be said of lots of manufactures including, in no particular order… Microsoft, Apple, Google, Amazon, Sony, Samsung, LG, Bose, B&O etc; to name but a few ‘example’ companies… but thank goodness, I don’t suffer with such paranoia about these type of things.

 
SarahN
Userlevel 6
Badge +14

I was just thinking of pulling the trigger for 2 fives, but this update stopped me… Maybe it’s time to look at other brands ☹️🤷🏻‍♂️

 

I don’t have the Arc and this update has not affected my system in any way. I know this does not mean that a future one couldn’t have any impact at all, but I love my system and in particular my 2 Fives, so don’t let this put you off completely.  Since that update before this one, my system has sounded better than ever but like I say, I don’t have the Arc (I have a Beam G2 set up along with many other speakers)

Can you have too many Sonos speakers? 🤔 😆
S
Userlevel 1
Badge +2

I also noticed that something is wrong with the sound after 14.12

I put the volume way higher than before and I still don’t get the same results that I used to.

I did not read this thread until I have created a new one… Yes, I totally agreed the Ver update 14.12 is totally not worth,, just regret else I hope to return back to previous version if possible.

 

Next time, I would consider to hold for a while before updating. 

J

My system also now sounds poor after update and  redoing truplay several times.  I contacted support but they seem to be unaware of the 14.12 problem. They just recommended reboot, change router channel, etc.  
Is there anywhere else we can provide feedback towards getting a fix deployed for this?

R
Userlevel 4

I was able to spend some time and talk with the Support team.  This has been escalated to their specialists and they’ll take a look and let us know what they find.  Thanks everyone for commenting and confirming what I was hearing and seeing in the frequency charts.  

We all know what escalating to the “specialists” mean in this company.

Had a similar discussion in Reddit, but will post here too. 

I get the frustration from consumers when dealing with support but I also know how it works within support and understand their side as well.

I work in software and sit between support and engineering. I am the “Specialist” when support can’t figure out the problem.  When issues come in, there is a lot of natural hesitation to believe the person who is complaining. 

There are so many cases where someone complains about an issue like “my sub low end is gone!” Only to find out the sub is turned off in the app, or it’s not plugged in, or they are playing ‘And Justice For All’ which may not have any frequency below 100hz. 

If you work in support long enough you’ll end up with that attitude whether you realize it or not.  It takes a conscious effort to not do it. 

You need someone at the company that will see the problem and push support and engineering to actually look at it and not just brush it off. 

Knowing this, I set out to try and provide enough info so that someone who understands the in and outs of the code will read it and understand there is an issue.  

Hopefully that person exists at Sonos.

Airgetlam

Probably due to all the other things that were included in the various software releases since then. 

Bruce
Zeek78
Userlevel 3
Badge +3

I wonder if this has been done before the sale of the mini sub begins, since the mini sub can't handle those low frequency…

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